2nd bilge pump versus bilge alarm?

[jb32566]

After blowing that exhaust hose and limping to shore and repairing it, my next mod is either a.) add a 2nd bilge pump that's actually automatic, or b.) a bilge alarm.
Both are pretty straight forward, but i'm wondering if there's a way to combine both into a single mod.

I was looking at at a whale SS1212 Smart bilge pump, but now that I think about it i could put the manual version of that pump with a float switch and a piezo alarm on the same circuit.
Has anyone done this?
I would just install the alarm, but reducing single points of failure seems worthwhile.

Thoughts?

I was never worried about this stuff with waverunners. Maybe it's just "mod fever," but FML any single point of failure and I'm screwed.

 

[swatski]

Secondary bilge pump, IMO.

Here is a quick repost of my setup:

"I don't particularly care for the factory bilge pump set up. I don't really like leaving the boat with battery switches on, if it can be avoided.... So, in my boat I finally got a backup bilge pump installed - the way I like it - direct to the battery (fused).

I use the simplest of all pumps - an automatic with a float switch. Attwood or Rule, doesn't matter, they are all the same. They all get terrible reviews, but I think it is primarily due to installation and maintenance issues.
The Ultra (brand) switch is about the only thing that will not fail - and something I would get if I wet slipped.

Otherwise, they all can get stuck in either "off" or "on" position, but I believe those inexpensive float switch automatics are actuslly the most reliable, if frequently tested and kept reasonably clean. One of my past boats leaked heavily (before I rebuilt the transom) - I had a chance to test various setups over the few years I kept it, lol.

Basically - the cycling ones (like the OEM pump) sense a load, any load - so it could be debris that will keep those on and drain your battery pretty quickly leaving the boat unprotected. Same with the "actual liquid sensing" (conductance, optical or whatever) - those can be fooled/activated by dirt - and stay "on". What is even more worrisome, neither of those two types (or the newer ones that "sense" but then default to "cycling" if they think it is just dirt) will actually pump if gasoline or oil is present...
(I'm all for clean environment, but if my boat sinks....)

Here is my backup bilge pump setup (inside the stern):

The pump's base is screwed and 5200-ed to one of the support beams (for the ride plate underneath the hull) at the bottom of the bilge. This backup pump operates completely independently of the factory bilge pump and is the only device in my boat that is live when all battery switches are "OFF". I have it wired directly to the house battery with a 16awg wire (using ground-black, and automatic - brown, with the brown/white - manual sealed off) running in a loom (top in the picture) - going into the engine compartment inside another large loom, along steering cables. The hot wire is fused within few inches of the positive terminal with a 5A fuse. The drain hose (bottom) is a standard 5ft 3/4" with a dedicated thru-hull outlet fitting installed above/forward off of the strbd rear cleat (don't have a picture).

Oh, I forgot to add - the pump is accessible through the cleanout tray hatch/opening - I can reach it to test the pump with the little dial knob. "

EDIT: Here is a picture of the outlet - the pump ejects a 5ft long stream. When putting this kind of back up together - I think it is very important to have an independent hose line/outlet, a well designed system with a short, clear path is more important than the nominal "GPH" rating of a pump, which is often based on unrealistic circumstances.

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Here is a quick repost of my setup:

"I don't particularly care for the factory bilge pump set up. I don't really like leaving the boat with battery switches on, if it can be avoided.... So, in my boat I finally got a backup bilge pump installed - the way I like it - direct to the battery (fused).

I use the simplest of all pumps - an automatic with a float switch. Attwood or Rule, doesn't matter, they are all the same. They all get terrible reviews, but I think it is primarily due to installation and maintenance issues.
The Ultra (brand) switch is about the only thing that will not fail - and something I would get if I wet slipped.

Otherwise, they all can get stuck in either "off" or "on" position, but I believe those inexpensive float switch automatics are actuslly the most reliable, if frequently tested and kept reasonably clean. One of my past boats leaked heavily (before I rebuilt the transom) - I had a chance to test various setups over the few years I kept it, lol.

Basically - the cycling ones (like the OEM pump) sense a load, any load - so it could be debris that will keep those on and drain your battery pretty quickly leaving the boat unprotected. Same with the "actual liquid sensing" (conductance, optical or whatever) - those can be fooled/activated by dirt - and stay "on". What is even more worrisome, neither of those two types (or the newer ones that "sense" but then default to "cycling" if they think it is just dirt) will actually pump if gasoline or oil is present...
(I'm all for clean environment, but if my boat sinks....)

Here is my backup bilge pump setup (inside the stern):

The pump's base is screwed and 5200-ed to one of the support beams (for the ride plate underneath the hull) at the bottom of the bilge. This backup pump operates completely independently of the factory bilge pump and is the only device in my boat that is live when all battery switches are "OFF". I have it wired directly to the house battery with a 16awg wire (using ground-black, and automatic - brown, with the brown/white - manual sealed off) running in a loom (top in the picture) - going into the engine compartment inside another large loom, along steering cables. The hot wire is fused within few inches of the positive terminal with a 5A fuse. The drain hose (bottom) is a standard 5ft 3/4" with a dedicated thru-hull outlet fitting installed above/forward off of the strbd rear cleat (don't have a picture).

Oh, I forgot to add - the pump is accessible through the cleanout tray hatch/opening - I can reach it to test the pump with the little dial knob. "

EDIT: Here is a picture of the outlet - the pump ejects a 5ft long stream. When putting this kind of back up together - I think it is very important to have an independent hose line/outlet, a well designed system with a short, clear path is more important than the nominal "GPH" rating of a pump, which is often based on unrealistic circumstances.

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[bronze_10]

2nd bilge pump for sure... I don't see why you couldnt wire the alarm up to the bilge but if u have a problem and the pump comes on the alarm will constant while u trying figure out what is happening... a 2nd switch with an alarm I could silence would be nice..

 

[Dave burke]

I did pretty much the same thing as @swatski. I wet slip my boat at my cottage and an alarm is no good to me since we’re not there during the week. The only solution was to add a second bilge wired directly to the battery (with a fuse)

 

[bronze_10]

I added a 2nd bilge for bimini... I wanted additional ability to more more water... I installed a 1100 gallon per hour pump right in front of the drain plug... wired straight to the batteries with an inline fuse. Complete with it's own discharge hose!

 

[jb32566]

my primary bilge pump is wired directly to the battery with a fuse, but it's switched at the helm. it's a whale supersub 650 with both a manual and automatic wire, but only the manual wire is connected to the helm switch. this seems like bad design decision for scarab. I might look at changing that switch out to a 3 way so i can utilize the manual and automatic capabilities of it.

Anyway, I found this schematic at another site (not sure I can name it. the h..l t...h ) it looks like very close to what i was thinking and is electrically equivalent to what I wanted to do, with the exception that the original design in my head did not have the ability to manually test the pump and I was going to wire the piezo directly across the pump terminals. (still in parallel.)

now i just have to do a parts selection and wait for my awesome wife to say "more boat parts?" when they get here.

time to google around here for best float switches and decide if I want to add a 2nd switch for manual operation. possibly a 3 way switch for OFF, manual, float.

 

[seanmclean]

Secondary bilge would take priority for me over an alarm. An alarm that you can't do anything about (getting rid of water) isn't super helpful. I have my secondary setup identically to swatski's. though my outlet is a bit lower.

 

[tdonoughue]

I went with the 2nd bilge first, but I also bought an alarm. Note that when getting a second bilge, you must install a second discharge line. Do not just hook it to the existing line. The existing discharge hose is maxed out with the pump you have. You either need to remove it and put in a gigantic one (which you won't want to do) or just add a second one. I went and got stock Yammy parts for mine and basically put a second discharge next to the first (so they match), but there are lots of options.

Mind you, I have learned that the alarm I bought is not very effective at all. Apparently you have to install it, as well... Working on it.

 

[4x15mph]

Automatic, float controlled bilge should be standard and isn't. Definitely a must have

 

[Jack Long]

No question, 2nd bilge pump.

 

[biglar155]

2nd bilge pump should definitely be added but don't discount that alarm. As they say on TV, "The first step to solving your problem is knowing you have one." Fear and a properly sized bucket (not too big, not too small) can move a lot of water too.

I installed a bilge alarm. I test it before every launch by reaching into the engine compartment and flipping the test lever on the float - this also puts my face squarely between the engines so I can sniff for fuel vapor before turning the key.

I purchased a bilge pump as a backup a few years ago. (Similar to this: WHALE PUMPS Gusher Urchin Thru-Hull Manual Bilge Pump with Removable Handle | West Marine ) As @tdonoughue pointed out, most of these things tend to work better when actually INSTALLED.

In my defense, I trailer-boat so I'm not designing for a "sink at the dock" scenario.

 

[the MfM]

Having a second pump higher in the bilge with the outlet on the opposite of the original pump kind of works as an alarm.

If you notice it going off while using the boat you know something is wrong.

 

[bronze_10]

Just aim the 2nd bilge pump at the location where u stand while u drive... u can angle it where when u move it will go over board..... problem solved!

 

[MidnightRider]

Both! There are cases where a second bilge pump will not be able keep up enough to help the situation but early action would save you if an alarm gave up instant notification of an issue. A second pump on a float switch with an alarm wired into the same float switch is barely any extra work above just installing the pump alone.

 

[swatski]

an alarm wired into the same float switch is barely any extra work above just installing the pump alone.

I completely agree with you except it is extra work and extra testing if you want the alarm to sound or flash on the dash...
Not a huge amount of extra work, but it does make the circuit and connections a bit more complex.


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[swatski]

Having a second pump higher in the bilge with the outlet on the opposite of the original pump kind of works as an alarm.

If you notice it going off while using the boat you know something is wrong.

There have been instances of our yammies taking on water into the bilge at WOT where a bilge pump action would be missed, such as in the case that prompted the OP to start this thread. For example, an unlocked or a crooked/misaligned cleanout plug or a disconnected cooling hose can lead to such a condition.

I chose not to install a high water (visual or sound) alarm as I want my secondary bilge pump to be as simple a circuit as possible, but I can see the advantage of having one.

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[MidnightRider]

I completely agree with you except it is extra work and extra testing if you want the alarm to sound or flash on the dash...
Not a huge amount of extra work, but it does make the circuit and connections a bit more complex.


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That’s why I said “barely any extra work” But yes, and this also depends on the capabilities of the installer.

 

[rkim808]

Better to have and not need then need and not have, prepare for the worse hope for the best. Those r some or the mottos I like to go by, and that’s exactly what a secondary bilge wired directly to the battery will do. I’m in the process of doing the same on my AR240 and I’m going to follow some of the example given like @swatski install. I noticed on my last ocean outing the OEM bilge didn’t do a great job, and I had lots of water in the hull sloshing around. The location of the OEM bilge is too far forward in the hull, it’s in the engine box. So it doesn’t even turn on till there a lot of water in the boat. On my older LS2000 the OEM bilge is right in front of the rear drain plug in the transom. That’s the ideal placement IMO, then I installed a secondary one in the engine box. I really like the design of the LS2000 engine box cause it’s completely closed when the drain plugs is in. So even if the hull is filled with water it doesn’t get into the engine box. The AR240 on the other hand is completely open to the hull, and will flood out if taking on a lot of water. Sorry for getting off track lol, but great idea I’ll be doing the same. It’s all about Peace of Mind, and a Sense of Security.

 

[swatski]

Fear and a properly sized bucket (not too big, not too small) can move a lot of water too.

Well, add super long arms to it as well... Incidentally, a water bailing device (bucket) is on the USCG list of required items for your boat USCG safety inspection! So thank you for the reminder!

I always forget to get one, need to pack it right now, I think I will use of those Home Depot small paint buckets for holding in your hand.

If you are taking water in the engine compartment - it is going to be very very difficult to bail water by hand BEFORE the level reaches air intakes, certainly in case of the 1.8s where the intakes are fairly low... Especially if the boat no longer planes and the bow is not up, the intakes will get swamped quickly.

I know that some members here suggested just carrying an extra aerator-type (over the side) ballast pump setup on board for emergency bailout purposes. I do not know how efficient it would be in my case, I find those setups to be clumsy and I would be swamped by the time I have it connected, in an emergency!

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[swatski]

The location of the OEM bilge is too far forward in the hull, it’s in the engine box. So it doesn’t even turn on till there a lot of water in the boat.

That is exactly right, and really not the best design, if you ask me.
When running on plane with the bow high up the amount of water that can accumulate in the back of the bilge/stern is enough to possibly swamp the engines' air intakes in all 1.8 boats when coming off of plane! - given the location of the OEM "bilge" pump (not in the bilge) in the center of the engine compartment...
I always thought it was just crazy how they do this...

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