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Attacking Teachers (should we keep this content at all?)

Jim_in_Delaware

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See the topic has been moved. I'm done and if y'all want to delete the tread its okay with me.

Jim
 

AZMark

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@CanTex
You live in a wealthy town that appears to pay its teachers extremely well, this is not the case across America.

BIAS ALERT - my wife was a teacher for 9 years or so until she got out of the industry just before covid. Her pay was materially below the bottom of your schedule. The reason for this is that there are lots of retiree transplants and otherwise uninvested voters here that shortsightedly think along the same lines as your comments.

Agree with Jim - if you're making the numbers anywhere on that chart in 2021 with a college degree that you intended to make money on then you have failed.

As far as the bullet points:
I'm unaware of the rule of 80, maybe that's a local thing. This is certainly a thing for public safety although it's even more generous which I'm fairly neutral on based on their general underpayment.

Federal holidays apply to other industries but sure they are nice. My wife caught up on grading and planning with most of them.

Your last four bullets cut to the problem with teachers. It is a very important and very ambiguous job, exactly the types of jobs that tend to pay extremely well in the private sector so that they can get the type of people that don't need to worry about those four bullet points because they just take care of the f'ing problem. When you decide to underpay then you end up running off a lot of the kind of motivated self-managing people that you need in that kind of job. Compound that with the difficulties in measuring performance and you can end up with a bunch of unengaged people teaching the answers to standardized tests instead of actually teaching kids the right way to work hard and learn for themselves that will benefit them and society for the rest of their lives.

Edit: From what I have heard from the teachers we know, the remote situation was more difficult.
 
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adrianp89

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😂 guess teachers were the line in the sand for the Covid thread
 

Julian

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😂 guess teachers were the line in the sand for the Covid thread
Just a different topic....so makes sense to split it off.

Teachers in NC make way less than that chart! We are slowly increasing pay....but it ain't a job any teacher is getting rich at.
 

Jim_in_Delaware

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Lol, you didn't even post the thread did you?
It pretty clear I didn't start the thread. :rolleyes:

Seems to me the mods were asking a general question to anyone who previously posted before the thread was moved.

I have, however, made several posts to the thread and honestly, I don't care if the thread is deleted or not.

Jim
 

Betik

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@Tgen2013 I am not sure why you are so worked up!!!
politicians printing money and allocating in a such a way as to increase their likelihood of being reelected is a centuries old practice.
Unions, large churches, non profits etc are all vehicles created for good and now mostly utilized for the aforementioned purposes.
 

octavio3311

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OMG! I am an Assistant Director of Operations for a large 600 acre SUNY (State University of NY).
Faculty and operations have way different REALITIES - way different priorities.
In operations - we focus on the community needs/priorities. Faculty - not so much!

In operations - we have been there supporting the community thruout the pandemic, never missing a day, and having to disinfect confirmed hot spots. All of us, myself included, have contracted COVID and most recovered. Unfortunately, we did lose few to COVID.
While we’ve been on site the entire time, I hear the complaints from staff/faculty that they don’t feel safe on campus and don’t wanna come back.
Fuck You!
Our campus is so much cleaner than your local gas station or grocery store. STFU!

Sorry for the vent! I feel better now!
You guys hit a major sore subject!
 

Crob83

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It pretty clear I didn't start the thread. :rolleyes:

Seems to me the mods were asking a general question to anyone who previously posted before the thread was moved.

I have, however, made several posts to the thread and honestly, I don't care if the thread is deleted or not.

Jim
Ok.😂 Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family
 

Ronnie

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I don’t keep up on teachers salaries across the nation but the teachers in my school district went on strike two years ago, claiming low pay among other things. Soon afterwards it was disclosed that the average salary pre strike for all of the teachers in the district including the high school with an average of 5,000 students was $98,000. Most of the parents that I know refused to support the teachers when they found this out, how could they when the average annual salary of parents was less than $98,000 . A few mentioned that that they work more hours and all 12 months a year whereas most teachers only work from 8a to 3p and have multiple week days off during the school year. I know a counselor at the high school who hardly works at all and worked even less after the pandemic hit. Yet she makes over $100k per year now.

on the flip side there is an out of state first year fourth grade teacher who disclosed that he made just $33,000 in his first year which works out to $16.50 per hour. His video went viral a few weeks ago. He could make more money as a new hire with no experience or college education working for Taco Bell. At the other extreme, my school district’s superintendent makes over $300,000 per year. She doesn’t teach any classes and hasn’t for years.

do I feel sorry for teachers? Not at all. They knew going in what it paid. I state this from the perspective of my aunts who are retired teachers and several of my cousins who are currently teachers. When ask why they went into teaching the predominant answer is: I only had / have to work nine months year. When I asked what their favorite part of teaching is/was the answer: having June, July and August off. Most would turn down summer school teaching opportunities. When I asked them what the worst part of the job was the answer was the relatively low pay but they knew that going in so don’t complain about it now.

please note, I am not bashing teachers. I have three college degrees and well aware that I would not being living the life I am now without the many, many teachers involved in my education but I do expect everyone including teachers to own the career decisions that they made along with the consequences of such decisions.

What a strange topic for a forum with a boating focus. Come to think of it I don’t know any k-12 teachers who own a boat. Not too surprising since boating generally is not for the financially challenged. What is the average cost for a new entry level jet boat? $40k for a 16 to 19 foot boat, $10k for a pwc.
 

Tgen2013

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What are the education requirements for the above table? 4 year BA/BS or something else?

In the Houston area, you have some of the highest wages in the country. Personally, I don't consider $73K for a person with a college degree (or maybe multiple degrees) and 10 years of experience to be an excessive wage, especially in your market.

Regarding teachers choosing their field, I absolutely agree. They are public servants like so many other folks. While one hopes to make a decent living, one doesn't go into any type of public service with the hopes of getting rich. Most public servants will tell there are other non-monetary rewards for this type of service.

Jim
What you said makes sense, but is not the case in fact. Teachers have always used hiding behind "we are for the kids" as shield anchor for more dubious agendas.

"Everyone cares about the kids right". Wrong.
A major element in the bankrupt debt of State governments like California and Illinois are they public education unions, their demands, and the unfunded pension liabilities they have.

What is not in sync are the realties that the positions are public service in nature, and the ambitions of the memberships.
In their minds they strive for private business like compensation. (Especially in retirement).
The fact that these are public tax funded institutions precludes this. The fact that you have so many degrees doesn't change that fact that the system can only support so much compensation.

Consider that most deputy attorneys general salaries start in the 40-60 K range. This is true in both state and local levels. So think about it. Getting a law degree, probably being several hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt, then making that much.

The difference is "The Unions", the attorneys general are a section of an elected entity which tends to have more direct accountability to the electorate. Hence the much more conservative compensation.
The Unions on the other hand are a parasitic back drop. Also political but much more insidious, and without direct accountability. Depending on the particular state, it either infests in a chronic way, or is curtailed. Every state is different.

****My comments that started this thread stemmed from the Vaccine. Here in Indiana out ISTA (teacher union) has behaved unacceptably. Making demands, getting those demands met. Then making more demands. Stalling, obstructing, meanwhile the kids fall behind and are not being taught.
We need to lose the sacred cow syndrome they have and kick them in the ass.

We sure as f-ck not need to print more worthless money that we dont have and throw it at them because they are whining.
 
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Jim_in_Delaware

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"Everyone cares about the kids right". Wrong.
A major element in the bankrupt debt of State governments like California and Illinois are they public education unions, their demands, and the unfunded pension liabilities they have.
Unfunded pension liabilities are NOT the fault of the employee, they are the fault of the employer (be them private business or government). While one might (and you obviously do) fault the union's for the mess with unfunded pension liabilities, they are the result of contracts entered by the employer. Unfunded pensions liabilities simply would not exist is they were properly funded by the employer.

You may be too young to recall this, but it has a huge problem in the 1970/80's with many private employers. For some it was a matter of them making poor business decisions and raiding pension funds to make up for their choices, for others it was purposely done as raiders bought companies and stripped them of their assets. My grandfather was caught up in this. When he retired from his job working at a steel foundry he lost his pension.

Jim
 

AZMark

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Consider that most deputy attorneys general salaries start in the 40-60 K range. This is true in both state and local levels. So think about it. Getting a law degree, probably being several hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt, then making that much.
Every qualified lawyer in a role like that has the choice to go make over $100k very easily. Those jobs are usually stepping stones to much higher pay.
 

Jim_in_Delaware

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LOL, don't know what is so special about being a lawyer in terms of student debt, but they would likely hold student loan debt that is equivalent to anyone with a graduate degree.

Lawyers for the federal government, in the Washington metro area, fresh out of law school are hired as a GS-11 ($72,750 with locality pay). I understand they are eligible to become a GS-13 after a year in grade (quicker than other federal employees) and earn $103K in this geographic area.

Jim
 

AZMark

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I don’t keep up on teachers salaries across the nation but the teachers in my school district went on strike two years ago, claiming low pay among other things. Soon afterwards it was disclosed that the average salary pre strike for all of the teachers in the district including the high school with an average of 5,000 students was $98,000. Most of the parents that I know refused to support the teachers when they found this out, how could they when the average annual salary of parents was less than $98,000 . A few mentioned that that they work more hours and all 12 months a year whereas most teachers only work from 8a to 3p and have multiple week days off during the school year. I know a counselor at the high school who hardly works at all and worked even less after the pandemic hit. Yet she makes over $100k per year now.

on the flip side there is an out of state first year fourth grade teacher who disclosed that he made just $33,000 in his first year which works out to $16.50 per hour. His video went viral a few weeks ago. He could make more money as a new hire with no experience or college education working for Taco Bell. At the other extreme, my school district’s superintendent makes over $300,000 per year. She doesn’t teach any classes and hasn’t for years.

do I feel sorry for teachers? Not at all. They knew going in what it paid. I state this from the perspective of my aunts who are retired teachers and several of my cousins who are currently teachers. When ask why they went into teaching the predominant answer is: I only had / have to work nine months year. When I asked what their favorite part of teaching is/was the answer: having June, July and August off. Most would turn down summer school teaching opportunities. When I asked them what the worst part of the job was the answer was the relatively low pay but they knew that going in so don’t complain about it now.

please note, I am not bashing teachers. I have three college degrees and well aware that I would not being living the life I am now without the many, many teachers involved in my education but I do expect everyone including teachers to own the career decisions that they made along with the consequences of such decisions.

What a strange topic for a forum with a boating focus. Come to think of it I don’t know any k-12 teachers who own a boat. Not too surprising since boating generally is not for the financially challenged. What is the average cost for a new entry level jet boat? $40k for a 16 to 19 foot boat, $10k for a pwc.
You have some unique economics in your part of the country that might be comparable to one other place. I’d agree that $98k would be a very very nice salary for a teacher in most of the country and you could get legitimate high performing talent from other industries at that rate.

If you think teachers show up and run out of school with the bell like the children then you know some pretty unengaged teachers that don’t assign any homework or tests and don’t help students outside of class. More likely you haven’t really talked to your family members about what their job is like. If the former then that’s the unfortunate side effect of what you get for low pay that I referenced in one of my prior posts.
 

Tgen2013

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Unfunded pension liabilities are NOT the fault of the employee, they are the fault of the employer (be them private business or government). While one might (and you obviously do) fault the union's for the mess with unfunded pension liabilities, they are the result of contracts entered by the employer. Unfunded pensions liabilities simply would not exist is they were properly funded by the employer.

You may be too young to recall this, but it has a huge problem in the 1970/80's with many private employers. For some it was a matter of them making poor business decisions and raiding pension funds to make up for their choices, for others it was purposely done as raiders bought companies and stripped them of their assets. My grandfather was caught up in this. When he retired from his job working at a steel foundry he lost his pension.

Jim
No I'm not too young.

The kabal of politically driven city councils, state legislatures,...and teachers unions, and yes ultimately the teachers themselves. We all know the side of the unions. Have not only fostered this, but used it as an organizational weapon to acquire , and maintain political power.
What's lost in truth, is quality of education, and fiscal responsibility.
Todays world is not the 70's.

Your own point actually supports what I am speaking of. Public education is funded with tax dollars, There is no Chptr 13 from publicly funded pension funds. Only taking more and more taxpayer money. The institutions have a duty to be conservative, and fiscally responsible. All these teacher clowns who decided to be Phd's etc are NOT due commensurate private salaries. Then and only then are you in education for the right reasons. Quit trying to slick up into higher retirement benefits. Have you seen how ridiculous CA teacher pensions are ?


Rather than belly ache, let me give you an example of what should be, and what works. In the 1970's specifically after the Social Security debacle, then Indiana Governor Bowen (An MD), created the Police and Fire pension of 1977. He took all the lessons from the failings of social security and incorporated them into the fund laws and by rules.

The fund used funds from the state matched directly with working officers/firefighter. Retirement benefits were standardized for all ranks. That's is a Chief of Police gets the same as a 35 year patrolman.

In the years that followed the fund prospered from fiscal conservatism, to the point were things could be improved slightly. Today the fund is one of a very few which are 100% self funding and growing. It is insulated by LAW from the state. It can NOT be borrowed against or used as collateral.
Only the working and retired membership voting can change payouts etc as a group. That is, a highly educated slick ass minority can NOT leverage better benefits for a few.. True public accountability, self sufficiency, FOREVER. (With COLA increase, even in this stupid new economy).
 
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Jim_in_Delaware

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Your own point actually supports what I am speaking of. Public education is funded with tax dollars, There is no Chptr 13 from publicly funded pension funds. Only taking more and more taxpayer money. The institutions have a duty to be conservative, and fiscally responsible. All these teacher clowns who decided to be Phd's etc are NOT due commensurate private salaries. Then and only then are you in education for the right reasons. Quit trying to slick up into higher retirement benefits. Have you seen how ridiculous CA teacher pensions are ?
If you read what I have written instead of reading INTO what I have written, you might see that I am not sticking up for any state of local retirement plans. The problem with the states is not the teachers or the teacher unions, but rather the state governments NOT funding retirement plans that they agreed to fund. The institutions is this case that "have a duty to be conservative, and fiscally responsible" are the states themselves. However, rather than being fiscally responsible they just kicked the can down the road, so to speak.

Also keep in mind that a lot of civil servants tolerate lower annual salaries than they might otherwise, due to generous retirement benefits. Again, not a fault of the employee but a fault of the state is they do not fund these future obligations.

Your Indiana example of Police and Fire pensions is an interesting one and one that seems to have solved the problem at a state level at least for this group of public servants.

I think that some states might also learn from what the federal government did with federal employee pensions in 1987 when they replace the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) with the Federal Employees' Retirement System (FERS), thereby being more in line with the private sector. Under CSRS, employees had a defined benefit plan, resulting in a large government paid pension when they retired. Under FERS, the employee pension is much smaller (generally about 1% per year of their retirement salary), the employee pays into Social Security (something CSRS employees did not) and have a 401(k)-style savings plan, the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) that is funded in real time.

Jim
 

Tgen2013

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(f you read what I have written instead of reading INTO what I have written, you might see that I am not sticking up for any state of local retirement plans. The problem with the states is not the teachers or the teacher unions, but rather the state governments NOT funding retirement plans that they agreed to fund. The institutions is this case that "have a duty to be conservative, and fiscally responsible" are the states themselves. However, rather than being fiscally responsible they just kicked the can down the road, so to speak.)
^^^^
Kinda sorta,..................but..............


The whole premise of my comments about teachers(unions) was predicated on a statement of truth from another member in the Vaccine thread.
He stated he was tired of entities misusing, misrepresenting data to sway or support erroneous demands or actions. My observation is that the teachers/unions are the most guilty parties of this. The teacher unions ARE full of shit, and they ARE self centered period..............But its for the kids,...Dam that makes me mad.

Without argument 5-11 year old children pose the lowest risk of contracting, spreading, and coming down with serious illness. Listen to a teacher union and you would think they are super spreader lepers, and that teachers are at risk miracle workers,...(spits large loogie on floor). HA!

What you speak of in the above paragraph has some merit, but the proximate cause of these bankrupt funds lies more in the kabal I mention.
Its not that the states don't contribute and collect funds. Its that through nepotistic corrupt support of the unions expanding increasing/benefits without the accompanying increases in funding then it becomes unworkable. This has persisted in these past decades and is reaching critical mass.

****Brace yourselves gentlemen, NYC just announced a new strain, newer than Delta,.......maybe its the L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T virus. F-ucking spare me.
 
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