Blue Seas Add a battery kit Questions

[jetboater4life]

I'll be installing my kit soon, and had a couple of questions that will hopefully prevent me from running to the store for parts multiple times.
I have two group 24 AGM batterys and a pulsetech dual bank charger.
In the blue seas diagram below do I need to be concerned about the start isolation wire? What size/type of fuse should I use between the battery positive terminal and the ACR?

In Mel's diagram below, I'll be installing a ground bus as well as a light for the dash. I need to install my ACR to the load side to allow my batteries to be isolated when the boat is stored. This allows the dual charger to work it's magic on each battery independently. Are there any drawbacks to doing this or anything I need to consider that would cause the system to behave adversely in this configuration?

The blues seas diagram.

And Mel's diagram.

 

[txav8r]

Howdy @jetboater4life , Derick, Here is a diagram not complicated by all the explanations. I notice that Blue Sea has added a sentence about connecting the ACR between the battery + posts only, because of voltage drops due to conductor resistance. If your ACR and switch are right beside your batteries, I don't think this will be an issue by placing the ACR on the load side of the switch. But I am not an expert, I am just repeating what guys have done before...@maboat @kvoma , and recommended. I just tried to clarify in layman's terms why they moved it and how it worked. I will still put the ACR between the two load side posts on the switch when I add the kit and battery to my new boat, just as the diagram shows.

If you are adding the helm ground bus and a secondary switch panel, it would look something like this.

I am no expert on this, and the diagrams are just my way of understanding what others and Blue Sea have stated in more confusing terms. Both of these setups are what I did, first without and then with busses.

The start isolation can be used if you like, it is there. I did not use it, because in my discussion with a number of guys smarter than me, they indicated that we didn't have big engines with big charging systems and starters that needed to be isolated to prevent damage to sensitive electronics. I had a garmin chart plotter and stereo on my boat, and saw no adverse affects from not isolating the starters. Hope this helps Derick!

 

[txav8r]

This is how my old boat was set up, with a Blue Sea 4 switch/fuse panel and my busses, stereo system, along with the X2 dual pulsetech charger.

 

[Chris5105]

@jetboater4life Just curious. I'm thinking about adding a second battery as well. Our old boat had dual batteries but because of their weight the boat always listed to port. Is it possible to put the second battery on the starboard side opposite the current battery?

 

[txav8r]

You can move a battery to the other side, but then using an ACR, not
Sure about the added conductor length and what that much resistance would do to the dynamics.

 

[__ScottyDont]

Barging in here but it could be useful for the OP. The starter isolation wire is something I'm interested in adding because when I start my boat all my electronics take a hit and it kills me every time I turn the key. However, I'm curious how people have installed this with a twin motor application needing to pull from the START position on both ignitions. Do you really wire to both ignitions directly? I don't like the idea of tying them together. Has anyone thought of using a diode coming off both circuits?

 

[__ScottyDont]

A little searching goes a long way, OP, check this post out by Blue Sea regarding Twin Engine start isolation:

http://www.bluesea.com/resources/65

 

[txav8r]

@__ScottyDont , call blue sea tech. I had several conversations with them regarding the use of their starter isolation on our boats. It isn't what they designed it for, as we don't have alternators or high amp starters. Talking to them will give you a new viewpoint. It did me.

 

[__ScottyDont]

@txav8r Mel, mind going into anymore detail? I will say, when I crank my motors, my Fusion HU stops playing music for a second, GPS dims, standard reasons what the SI was designed for.

 

[txav8r]

I would have used it Scotty if they had indicated a need or if I felt it was needed. I have not experienced those things. But I probably don't start engines with other stuff on either. Let me know how it works! Maybe I need to wire that up in the new boat!

 

[jetboater4life]

What about the battery fuses in the Blue Sea's picture I posted. I don't see a fuse in that location in your diagram Mel? Or is that already there by default? I guess it wouldn't be on the additional battery.

 

[jetboater4life]

A little searching goes a long way, OP, check this post out by Blue Sea regarding Twin Engine start isolation:

http://www.bluesea.com/resources/65

@__ScottyDont that is a good find. A fusion 600 is in my upgrade future and if it is cutting out upon engine startup that's probably not a good thing. I've ordered parts from Digikey before, they are a MN company. In the diagram you linked, the diode bridge shown has a negative/gnd terminal and it just goes off the picture. I assume this is supposed to wrap back around and connect to the ground bus/bar that they have in the picture.

I purchased one of these to use as a ground bar/bus and fuse block.
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B001P6FTHC/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1399268061&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Blue+Sea+Systems+5026

I plan on calling Bluesea like @txav8r Mel did and will see what they say about hooking up the ACR on the load side. I'll probably discuss the diode bridge too, but that looks pretty straight forward.

 

[__ScottyDont]

What about the battery fuses in the Blue Sea's picture I posted. I don't see a fuse in that location in your diagram Mel? Or is that already there by default? I guess it wouldn't be on the additional battery.

He does have one on the positive amp wire and the panel has them in top left according to diagram.

 

[maboat]

On these boats you don't need to worry about the Starter Isolation feature.

@txav8r Mel, mind going into anymore detail? I will say, when I crank my motors, my Fusion HU stops playing music for a second, GPS dims, standard reasons what the SI was designed for.

Something else is wrong. You should not be having this. I have a Fusion HU, 3 amplifiers, and GPS/depth/temp all on at the same time and start engines with no dropouts and I don't have SI on my ACR

Are you starting both engines separately or at the same time?
Are you electronics wired to the start battery or the extra battery?
Have you checked the condition of your batteries to make sure they are not weak?

 

[David Analog]

Just as a side note, you can use two simple diodes without the bridge. The diodes do not need to be potted. But mounting them down to a splint of sorts with the solid leads strain relieved would add to the reliability rather than connecting them freely in-line. Then add a heatshrink sleeve. A couple of 10 amp diodes are readily available locally for most.

 

[jetboater4life]

He does have one on the positive amp wire and the panel has them in top left according to diagram.

@__ScottyDont @txav8r I've circled the fuses in question? I didn't see them in Mel's latest diagram. Are they just terminal fuses? Would 80 or 100 amp suffice?

 

[txav8r]

I did not install fuses in my battery lines. Again, in speaking to Blue Sea's tech department, I questioned them about fuses. I know why you may want them, but they don't install a cable protecting fuse from the factory when you pick up your boat. And my discussion with him resulted in the only protection you were getting was to the ACR. Because if the ACR has an issue and fails, it fails either open or closed. Either way is fine. If it fails open, your batteries are isolated and both banks work separately like you want them to. If it fails closed, they are paralleled and run all systems simultaneously the way they do when underway with a charge on either battery. The reason they add those fuses seems to be from a liability standpoint, at least that was my take on it. But it may have more to do with being needed if you do run the starter isolation. I kind of operate by the book...but I also incorporate the K.I.S.S. principle. Keeping it simple keeps complicated things from confusing me!

On a related note...did they change batteries to have a larger size positive post than the negative post? Is this an automobile thing or marine as well? I noticed it on many batteries I was looking at. But I also noticed many of the ring connectors on chargers do not accommodate this increased size post. I was wondering about the ring terminals on the Yamaha equipment too. When did this change take effect?

 

[Rigger]

@txav8r Mel, mind going into anymore detail? I will say, when I crank my motors, my Fusion HU stops playing music for a second, GPS dims, standard reasons what the SI was designed for.

Scotty, I'm certainly not piling on here - I'm just trying to give more broad feedback. As you describe your start up - it isn't right. My old 230 didn't do that and my 240 doesn't do that. Fusion ip600's in both, 2 and 3 amps respectively and both have the Blue Sea SI-ACR's. Neither of the SI's are hooked up.

@__ScottyDont @txav8r I've circled the fuses in question? I didn't see them in Mel's latest diagram. Are they just terminal fuses? Would 80 or 100 amp suffice?View attachment 5201

I use one of these, between my house batteries and switch, with a 200 hi-amp wafer fuse.

 

[David Analog]

Most contemporary boats only fuse/breaker the pos. helm buss feed very close to the battery or battery switch supply. Rarely would there be a fuse/breaker on the starter/alternator feed. And certainly you need to fuse/breaker the pos. supply for the amplifiers & audio system as close to the supply as possible.
Fusing is to protect the boat and occupants in the event of a major boating accident. A 4-gauge cable, as an example, could catch materials around it on fire before it burns through. You know the force contained within a battery if shorted. It can literally vaporize metal.
To assess the risk consider the distance. If the battery banks, relays and switches are all in very close proximity, as they should be, this minimizes the exposure. If the battery banks are located on opposite sides of the boat then fusing those links at both extremes becomes critically important.
The other element to consider is when downsizing the wire gauge at various distribution hubs. The fusing that is correct for a 4-gauge cable, for example, is not going to trip before a far lessor gauge wire burns.
I'm sure that the Blue Sea schematic errors on the side of safety for liability issues.
Use the above guidelines to assess your individual situation. Be safe. Also keep in mind that every added breaker and fuse creates additional contact points and resistance. Going overboard can cost you precious current.

 

[jetboater4life]

I called blue seas to reconfirm some of the items above and spoke to Dave who was very courteous and helpful.
I am not having any problems with my electronics with just one battery so he suggested I forego the start diode bridge and the start isolation wire initially. We talked about fuses and he said if the ACR gets compromised the 10amp ACR ground fuse is it's protection.
To get the batteries to isolate when charging he recommended putting a relay (energized when the battery charger comes on) or switch on the ground wire of the ACR instead of connecting to the load side. He said the switch on the ground was a good idea if the boat is stored with the batteries for a long time because the ACR does draw a small amount of current when sampling the voltages of the batteries. To avoid the multiplicity of connections that @David Analog mentions above, I could just pull the fuse from the circuit for long term storage, if I wasn't removing my batteries.
I questioned him on connecting the ACR to the load side and he started talking about voltage drop to the batteries from added wire and connections. I asked him if there was anything significant resistance inside the switch (I would hope not) and he said no and conceded that it should work fine as long as all the connections were solid.

Blue Seas add a battery info
3/8 studs on A/B connections on ACR use ring connector with 4 gauge wire
16 guage for GND coming from the ACR, need a fast-on connector female, same for LED and
3/8 inch studs on battery switch same as ACR
11/64 4mm mounting hole 1.5V 1.2A amber LED

Blue Seas ST blade fuse block
Mounts with #8 or M4 screws
Pos and Neg common bus bars are #10-32 studs
terminal screws are #8-32

I need to order up the wires, fuses, and connectors and with some nice weather over memorial day weekend I should be able to tackle this project. I plan on using www.knukonceptz.com power wires with terminals and other supplies (crimpers and pencil torch) from www.delcity.net

Lots of good info on this blog too http://www.marinewireandcable.com/