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Carbon Seal Function and Explanation For Pre-mature Failures.

Ron@Scarab

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This Forum Post that I am going to take my time to write here is only to help people understand the system of the Carbon Ring, the support ring, and the protect hose. I am not going to waste my time here to get bashed for something that I didn't design, so please keep the snide comments to a minimum. As my Dad always told me,"Don't expect to come before me and complain about something unless you bring with you at least 3 solutions!"

So here goes:

First, the Carbon ring is a wear item, it doesn't last forever. Secondly, it needs to have lubrication "Water" while running it for cooling and sealing purposes. When your boat is in the water, the 3 components (Carbon ring, support ring, and the protect hose), when used together, will create a seal to keep water from entering the bilge.

Now, for those of you that don't know this, this system works very well. However, the system can be hurt, or Prematurely worn due to these few actions I will list below.

**Poor engine alignment///happens but rare

***Running your boat on flush for more than 90 seconds without manually lubricating the Carbon ring and support ring for cooling. In other words, you would have to run cool water over it if you plan on running your boat for more than that. (Which is unnecessary)!!! You are only flushing your exhaust manifold, not the motor! "You" are prematurely wearing out the Carbon ring against the support ring. The support ring will cut into the Carbon ring causing an uneven gap.

***Lack of service inspections by your dealer to help avoid this issue altogether***

###A Protect hose that has shrunk over time allowing a gap between the Carbon ring seal and the support ring allowing an excessive water leak. ### It is part of the service inspection at every service interval.


The last issue that I just listed is usually the culprit 7 out of 10 times. It can shrink from excessive heat!
I am saying this because I have replaced my share over the last 20 years (older styles and current) and have measured the old one against a new protect hose while the carbon ring/support ring are still intact and in good shape. The old protect hose will be weaker, and shorter in height.

Also, this design has been used since 2003 on every Seadoo 4-stroke watercraft and jetboat that Sea-Doo (BRP) made. It is currently used on all BRP PWC, Scarabs, and Chaparral's.

Lastly, to be clear here. BRP is only responsible for warranty on this, not SCARAB, which is handled all by your local dealer. I get it, it's a Scarab, they use BRP,...but please stop harassing Scarab here on this forum when it's BRP's issue that every one is talking about. Scarab is working with everyone, (The Dealers, BRP, and YOU to get a solution for you). You don't blame your SONY radio Failure on Scarab,..when it's Sony that failed and failed you (You go see Sony). One more point here to be made--I have noticed that a lot of people on this forum like to save a buck and are Do-it-yourselfer's. A lot of you can avoid a lot of these issues if you just get your boat serviced professionally by your local dealer, or someone who clearly knows about the BRP product with your boat.

I hope this helped everyone to get a better understanding and possibly avoid an unfortunate event while enjoying their Seadoo, Scarab or Chaparral Boat.

Kind Regards Always!
 

WaltB

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Thanks Ron for the explanation!

I do have a few questions though. If the carbon seal fails, for whatever reason, is there enough of a water leak to sink your boat? If so, do you recommend a secondary or larger bilge pump just in case of a failure? How common is this problem in reality? I know many in the forums just post when they experience a problem.

Walt
 

ScarabMike

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@Ron@Scarab Cmon man.....
This statement is complete and 100% BS.... I paid Scarab, not BRP. If I buy a Scout, and the freakin Yamaha engine has issues, Im taking the boat to Scout. The issues with the Scarab seals are almost 90% alignment. That has been proven here. I dont care how good an engine package is, if you dont install it correctly IT WILL FAIL

Lastly, to be clear here. BRP is only responsible for warranty on this, not SCARAB, which is handled all by your local dealer. I get it, it's a Scarab, they use BRP,...but please stop harassing Scarab here on this forum when it's BRP's issue that every one is talking about. Scarab is working with everyone, (The Dealers, BRP, and YOU to get a solution for you). You don't blame your SONY radio Failure on Scarab,..when it's Sony that failed and failed you (You go see Sony). One more point here to be made--I have noticed that a lot of people on this forum like to save a buck and are Do-it-yourselfer's. A lot of you can avoid a lot of these issues if you just get your boat serviced professionally by your local dealer, or someone who clearly knows about the BRP product with your boat./QUOTE]
 

ScarabMike

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Scarab, and its dealers are now on disaster control because this is getting out to the public. Some have even asked some customers to come to these sites, and vouch for them to save future sales. That means our pressure is working, and either they fix the issues, and work with existing customers, or the product line will die. Im stuck with my boat. I cant sell it because of its reputation. Now Scarab, and its past, present, and future dealers will have to deal with its customers and their issues.
 

ScarabMike

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Yes it will sink the boat. Its a 3" hole in the bottom of your hull. The bilge will not keep up, and when the water gets above the fuse box, it will kill the bilge as well. We have at least 15 people on here that have had these issues, and we only touch about 2% of the Scarab customers. You tell me is that isnt a bunch of BS as well. Those numbers dont lie. I dont make them up, they have been proven here. I was the first one on this board with a Scarab. I've seen most come and go.

Thanks Ron for the explanation!

I do have a few questions though. If the carbon seal fails, for whatever reason, is there enough of a water leak to sink your boat? If so, do you recommend a secondary or larger bilge pump just in case of a failure? How common is this problem in reality? I know many in the forums just post when they experience a problem.

Walt
 

DeadlyFrog

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Wow, after that intro. by ron@scarab I am so glad I never purchased a Scarab and feel bad for the ones that did. I can't believe the analogy of the Sony radio. If my radio fails on my Yamaha you damn bet I'm calling Yamaha or my dealer. Also, the part on Doing it Yourself, I guess Ron feels you are all idiots and you should pay big bucks to let the so called pros. do it for you. I would never buy anything that I could not at least do some service myself.
 

ScarabMike

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We are not idiots in here....


First, the Carbon ring is a wear item, it doesn't last forever. Secondly, it needs to have lubrication "Water" while running it for cooling and sealing purposes. When your boat is in the water, the 3 components (Carbon ring, support ring, and the protect hose), when used together, will create a seal to keep water from entering the bilge. It is a wear item, but when installed correctly, and maintained correctly it will last almost 150-200 hours.


Now, for those of you that don't know this, this system works very well. However, the system can be hurt, or Prematurely worn due to these few actions I will list below.

**Poor engine alignment///happens but rare Happens all the time on Scarab boats. Its been proven on here... Search "water in ski locker" or "hot water in bilge"


***Running your boat on flush for more than 90 seconds without manually lubricating the Carbon ring and support ring for cooling. In other words, you would have to run cool water over it if you plan on running your boat for more than that. (Which is unnecessary)!!! You are only flushing your exhaust manifold, not the motor! "You" are prematurely wearing out the Carbon ring against the support ring. The support ring will cut into the Carbon ring causing an uneven gap. You cannot Manually cool the ring. The only exposed side is inside the bellows. The side inside the craft gets covered by the bellows, and the drive ring. Even if you pour water on the ring from inside the boat, it will overheat.


***Lack of service inspections by your dealer to help avoid this issue altogether*** Inspection will only determine if you have a problem at the time. So if you are in between services, and it fails you are sunk. Maintenance intervals after the 25 hour check is every 100 hours. Boats are failing at 6-10 hours and up.


###A Protect hose that has shrunk over time allowing a gap between the Carbon ring seal and the support ring allowing an excessive water leak. ### It is part of the service inspection at every service interval.
Its called a bellows, and it has two stainless steel clamps on it holding it to the carbon seal and the hull. It will not move even if it "shrinks" because if they are tightened correctly from the factory, its impossible to pull the rubber apart. Also, it is ribbed for the flexing, and retracting of the environment.

The last issue that I just listed is usually the culprit 7 out of 10 times. It can shrink from excessive heat! I call BS on that
I am saying this because I have replaced my share over the last 20 years (older styles and current) and have measured the old one against a new protect hose while the carbon ring/support ring are still intact and in good shape. The old protect hose will be weaker, and shorter in height.

Also, this design has been used since 2003 on every Seadoo 4-stroke watercraft and jetboat that Sea-Doo (BRP) made. It is currently used on all BRP PWC, Scarabs, and Chaparral's. I wonder why Chaparrals are not having this issue????

Lastly, to be clear here. BRP is only responsible for warranty on this, not SCARAB, which is handled all by your local dealer. I get it, it's a Scarab, they use BRP,...but please stop harassing Scarab here on this forum when it's BRP's issue that every one is talking about. Scarab is working with everyone, (The Dealers, BRP, and YOU to get a solution for you). You don't blame your SONY radio Failure on Scarab,..when it's Sony that failed and failed you (You go see Sony). One more point here to be made--I have noticed that a lot of people on this forum like to save a buck and are Do-it-yourselfer's. A lot of you can avoid a lot of these issues if you just get your boat serviced professionally by your local dealer, or someone who clearly knows about the BRP product with your boat. This is Bullshit, and cant even be taken serious.

I hope this helped everyone to get a better understanding and possibly avoid an unfortunate event while enjoying their Seadoo, Scarab or Chaparral Boat.
 

Scottdip

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So if I'm understanding the OP correctly, if anything fails on the Scarab we need to reach out to the supplier of that part to get it fixed?

Is this normal in the boat industry?

There is no way an auto manufacturer would make you contact a radio supplier if you had a problem with the radio in your brand new car.
 

WaltB

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Scott,

I did not get that understanding at all. I think the OP is basically saying you have to go to the dealer to have the issues addressed and that makes sense. My understanding is that Scarab warrantees the boat and BRP warrantees the engines but both are addressed, at least initially, at the dealership.
The real question for me is how widespread is the failure rate of the carbon seal and is it a manufacturing defect we all have to look out for or something that is typically compromised by ingesting ropes or running the engine improperly?

Walt
 

Ron@Scarab

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Scott,

I did not get that understanding at all. I think the OP is basically saying you have to go to the dealer to have the issues addressed and that makes sense. My understanding is that Scarab warrantees the boat and BRP warrantees the engines but both are addressed, at least initially, at the dealership.
The real question for me is how widespread is the failure rate of the carbon seal and is it a manufacturing defect we all have to look out for or something that is typically compromised by ingesting ropes or running the engine improperly?

Walt
Thank goodness somebody understands what I wrote instead of jumping down my throat just as I expected.
 

Briwhy

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@Ron@Scarab where is the carbon seal at? Is it under the motor or can you only see it by pulling the pump housing?
 

Addicted

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Severe damage control and deflection, NOT helpful information and support for Scarab owners.
 

Briwhy

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Good morning, Walter.

We are aware of the issue with Robert Sands boat. With over 450,000 Rotax engines currently in service, an issue such as this is of very rare occurrence. We appreciate you reaching out to us and thank you for your time.

Thank you,
Scarab Boat

This was on there Facebook page so it's definitely getting to them. Let's see how they handle it.
 

Ron@Scarab

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So if I'm understanding the OP correctly, if anything fails on the Scarab we need to reach out to the supplier of that part to get it fixed?

Is this normal in the boat industry?

NO! That's not what I am saying. First of all, it sounds like a lot of people here don't understand their warranty from Scarab. Yes, we agree that people bought a Scarab. However, Scarab offers a (1) year bumper to bumper warranty on the boat itself. After that, you have 10 years on the hull by Scarab which is transferable. Any remaining warranty is by BRP for the drive-line and engine, which is also transferable (Current warranty is 3 years or 480 hours). So, by my statement about the Sony radio, if you are out of warranty and it breaks, corrodes, you spilled a drink on it etc.,you are more than welcome to purchase a new radio if it is available through your local dealer, who would go back to Scarab to see if they can match that radio or offer an upgrade. For the majority of times, Scarab has helped people regarding their radios as goodwill after a warranty has expired.
 

Ron@Scarab

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Severe damage control and deflection, NOT helpful information and support for Scarab owners.
Really? That's what you think? Re-read what I wrote again. It is by far NOT damage control and deflection. It's all facts.
 

Ron@Scarab

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@Ron@Scarab where is the carbon seal at? Is it under the motor or can you only see it by pulling the pump housing?
330 Bellow or Protect Hose
340 Carbon Ring
370 C-Clip
360 Support Ring

Your driveshaft runs through them as depicted in the picture below.
 

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Ron@Scarab

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We are not idiots in here....


First, the Carbon ring is a wear item, it doesn't last forever. Secondly, it needs to have lubrication "Water" while running it for cooling and sealing purposes. When your boat is in the water, the 3 components (Carbon ring, support ring, and the protect hose), when used together, will create a seal to keep water from entering the bilge. It is a wear item, but when installed correctly, and maintained correctly it will last almost 150-200 hours.


Now, for those of you that don't know this, this system works very well. However, the system can be hurt, or Prematurely worn due to these few actions I will list below.

**Poor engine alignment///happens but rare Happens all the time on Scarab boats. Its been proven on here... Search "water in ski locker" or "hot water in bilge"


***Running your boat on flush for more than 90 seconds without manually lubricating the Carbon ring and support ring for cooling. In other words, you would have to run cool water over it if you plan on running your boat for more than that. (Which is unnecessary)!!! You are only flushing your exhaust manifold, not the motor! "You" are prematurely wearing out the Carbon ring against the support ring. The support ring will cut into the Carbon ring causing an uneven gap. You cannot Manually cool the ring. The only exposed side is inside the bellows. The side inside the craft gets covered by the bellows, and the drive ring. Even if you pour water on the ring from inside the boat, it will overheat.


***Lack of service inspections by your dealer to help avoid this issue altogether*** Inspection will only determine if you have a problem at the time. So if you are in between services, and it fails you are sunk. Maintenance intervals after the 25 hour check is every 100 hours. Boats are failing at 6-10 hours and up.


###A Protect hose that has shrunk over time allowing a gap between the Carbon ring seal and the support ring allowing an excessive water leak. ### It is part of the service inspection at every service interval.
Its called a bellows, and it has two stainless steel clamps on it holding it to the carbon seal and the hull. It will not move even if it "shrinks" because if they are tightened correctly from the factory, its impossible to pull the rubber apart. Also, it is ribbed for the flexing, and retracting of the environment.

The last issue that I just listed is usually the culprit 7 out of 10 times. It can shrink from excessive heat! I call BS on that
I am saying this because I have replaced my share over the last 20 years (older styles and current) and have measured the old one against a new protect hose while the carbon ring/support ring are still intact and in good shape. The old protect hose will be weaker, and shorter in height.

Also, this design has been used since 2003 on every Seadoo 4-stroke watercraft and jetboat that Sea-Doo (BRP) made. It is currently used on all BRP PWC, Scarabs, and Chaparral's. I wonder why Chaparrals are not having this issue????

Lastly, to be clear here. BRP is only responsible for warranty on this, not SCARAB, which is handled all by your local dealer. I get it, it's a Scarab, they use BRP,...but please stop harassing Scarab here on this forum when it's BRP's issue that every one is talking about. Scarab is working with everyone, (The Dealers, BRP, and YOU to get a solution for you). You don't blame your SONY radio Failure on Scarab,..when it's Sony that failed and failed you (You go see Sony). One more point here to be made--I have noticed that a lot of people on this forum like to save a buck and are Do-it-yourselfer's. A lot of you can avoid a lot of these issues if you just get your boat serviced professionally by your local dealer, or someone who clearly knows about the BRP product with your boat. This is Bullshit, and cant even be taken serious.

I hope this helped everyone to get a better understanding and possibly avoid an unfortunate event while enjoying their Seadoo, Scarab or Chaparral Boat.

Scarabmike---SMH!! Give me some respect and re-read my very first paragraph.

Do I need to send in more pics as proof for the shrinkage of the bellows or Protect Hose as BRP used to name that part It sure can shrink, regardless of the clamps. As you stated, it flexes, and it can shrink without rebounding back completely. If you think that you can go a 100 hours without a service of any sort on a boat, you're clearly mistaken, especially in the South. Let's do some simple math shall we? First, if you operate your boat at 60mph for 100 hours that equates to roughly 6000 miles without a service. It sounds great and all in a perfect environment, but we aren't in a perfect environment now are we? It's not any different than in your vehicle owners manual changing out your air filter or oil filter. It's all just recommendations, but it also states that it is depending on your environmental conditions in the fine print.

Also, to add to your comment about "your service inspections are only going to find a problem at that time," is SOOOooo NOT True! Did you know that we inspect the rear seal in jet pumps on the second or third service for bulging? It is a $21.00 seal that can cost a person over a $1000 to replace. Down here in the south, they are lucky to make it past 60 hours before they start to bulge and slowly leak water into the pump. By the 100 hour mark, it is usually too late by then since the water damage is done. I can't even count how many times I have saved people 1000's of dollars for that little inspection that was completed ahead of time. I think they call it,"Preventative Maintenance!"

"The Bullshit part" as you stated back to me isn't bullshit and can be taken seriously because it is factual. You can't expect BRP to cover your Sony radio if it fails when the BRP warranty only covers the motor and drive-line. Scarab would honor the Sony Radio issue if the Scarab boat itself is still under warranty (Sony is Sony, Not Scarab). Otherwise, Yes, you would have to take that up with Sony. Now, this doesn't mean that you might not get a Good-will issued by Scarab. Circumstances, circumstances. There are people on this forum that I know for a fact has been given Goodwill by Scarab.

Mike, I am not here to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else here. Trust me, I have better things to do. My post clearly was here to give some info on the carbon ring, support ring, and bellow and how it works. You would be surprised to see how many people flush their motors out for 10-20 minutes because they just didn't know.

Also, I never denied, nor deflected, on anything, regarding anyone having problems with their drive-lines. I don't need too. I didn't make the design as I stated in my first paragraph Mike.
 

Ron@Scarab

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Scott,

I did not get that understanding at all. I think the OP is basically saying you have to go to the dealer to have the issues addressed and that makes sense. My understanding is that Scarab warrantees the boat and BRP warrantees the engines but both are addressed, at least initially, at the dealership.
The real question for me is how widespread is the failure rate of the carbon seal and is it a manufacturing defect we all have to look out for or something that is typically compromised by ingesting ropes or running the engine improperly?

Walt
Well stated!!
 

Ron@Scarab

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Wow, after that intro. by ron@scarab I am so glad I never purchased a Scarab and feel bad for the ones that did. I can't believe the analogy of the Sony radio. If my radio fails on my Yamaha you damn bet I'm calling Yamaha or my dealer. Also, the part on Doing it Yourself, I guess Ron feels you are all idiots and you should pay big bucks to let the so called pros. do it for you. I would never buy anything that I could not at least do some service myself.
Hey Frog, re-read my point again on the Sony Radio. Are you familiar with how the warranties work for Scarab? I doubt it based on your comments. Secondly, when your Std. Yamaha warranty is over in one year, good luck getting that new radio put in. And, good luck if it's even still available when you do need one. And, "Thank you kind sir" for putting words into my mouth thinking that I feel that all of us here are idiots--Soooo NOT True!! And, to put this into further perspective for you, on average if you can truly can afford a Scarab, you can afford a professional service. Scarab owners are an elite group of boat owners but if I have to explain that, you wouldn't understand anyway.
 
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