System Comm Error?

[WetWillie]

So Saturday we went out on the boat and nearly right away we experienced a first in a check engine warning. Specifically a system comm error on the port engine... Shut it down checked everything I could think and started back up. Spent the next two hours riding/tubing with the alarm sounding every 5 min. and muting it as there were no other adverse issues or symptoms. It ran fine, but continued alarming most of our trip out until we docked for an hour or so for dinner. Upon our return trip to takeout it finally quit alarming... Has anyone else experienced anything like this in the newer 1.8’s?

 

[tek4fun]

The error shows up when the Connext display is not getting information from the engine over the engine CAN wires. Since only one engine is reporting the issue then the problem would not be at the display connector end. I suspect a loose or damaged terminal at the engine connection for the CAN communication. On the port side of the engine compartment there should be a 10 pin connector which may or may not be marked EP1. The CAN wires are in positions 9 and 10 and the wires themselves will have a code on them about 3 inches from the back of the connector saying either ENGCAN + or ENGCAN -. This is were I think your issue is happening. You might have a terminal that has worked it's way loose from the connector. A word of advice, always turn off the battery switches before unplugging or plugging any connectors together.

 

[WetWillie]

Thanks for the info; I’ll mention it to the dealer upon other warranty work at the end of season

 

[buckbuck]

@tek4fun You sound like a guy we very much need around here. Welcome to the forum.

 

[MidnightRider]

Do you have Ridesteady? I was having eng comm warnings and turned out to be from shutting the battery off too quickly after turning the keys off. Ridesteady support explained that the Yamaha system does some communication with the APS (accelerator position sensor) for about 30-45 sec after the keys are turned off. With Ridesteady aps controllers installed they short circuit this communication if you turn off the batteries (or force shutdown RS with power button long press) within that 30-45 sec window. This will cause a eng comm code to be thrown and stored which will alarm next start up. What was happening for me was I would turn off the keys and immediately the batteries at the end of the day which would cause the code to alarm on the next start up. Then as chance would have it I would try to clear it by turning off the keys and the battery which off course would cause the same thing to happen again unknowingly. The fix is to simply wait 40 sec after the keys are off (with RS in standby mode) before turning the batteries off. Anyway thought I’d post this in case you or anyone else that stumbles on to the thread in the future is having codes resulting from similar actions with RS.

 

[WetWillie]

No RS installed but what you are describing makes sense as it was definitely less than half a min between cutting keys and battery switches... I’ll give more time in future end of day process

 

[MidnightRider]

No RS installed but what you are describing makes sense as it was definitely less than half a min between cutting keys and battery switches... I’ll give more time in future end of day process

Hmmm you bring up an interesting question. I was under the impression that this is an RS only issue and that without RS installed inline of the ATS harness the Yamaha system can do its post-key-off system comm with the batteries off. But now that you mention it in this way - can it? Without any battery power? Not sure why this wouldnt also interrupt comm without RS - But never heard of this issue mentioned outside of RS.

 

[MidnightRider]

Here is the exact support answer I got from Ridesteady for reference:

“Yes, if you force Ridesteady off within 30 seconds, there’s a good chance that will set an APS error in the engine computers (as the computers stay active until about 30 seconds to a minute after engine shut off). If Ridesteady is forced off while the engine computers are still on, there won’t be any signal at the APS, thereby throwing the check engine light.


I’d wait at least 30 seconds (a minute or more would be better) before forcing Ridesteady off to help avoid this situation. Of course, let me know if you run into any additional issues.”

 

[WetWillie]

Thanks for the insight as I am no good on electrics and it hasn’t thrown it since and I will have the dealer check in a few weeks at the end of the season... Interesting to see if it’s still stored in the computer then

 

[swatski]

Thanks @tek4fun and @ttzz for chiming in with great info. Very timely thread for me!

Just this morning as we were wrapping up the long weekend on the lake - I had the Eng Check /Sys Error pop up on both Port and Strbd!
With the alarm going off but no limp mode or anything, just the beep and Connext screen error message.
I first checked (and eliminated?) overheat as a possible source of the alarm as both pissers were shooting cool-ish water, hard. Nothing else seemed off, perfect thrust from both pumps etc. No limp mode and everything running perfectly...? (except the alarm going off)

Not sure of the exact sequence when it started as we were out and playing and messing around with the surf setup, so my attention was not really focused but I'm pretty sure it started when I lost (?) GPS signal on my Ride-Steady (showing an "X" in upper left corner of the display - instead of "bars").
Between turning things off/on (R-S/engines/batteries) - I got the GPS (R-S) signal back on but was still stuck with the CHECK ENGINE alarm going off.

(I have a ton of mods including new wiring to the helm - for electronics and stereo etc. - figured anything could cause a glitch, right? At the time, I was messing with ballast pumps, trim tabs, had Ride Steady going, aftermarket [Mainah]push button start/stop for float mode, VHF radio with a new AM/FM splitter, etc. etc.)

Since I could not figure out what else to do, I decided to try reflashing the ECUs with my handy Maptuner X (I run RIVA tunes, w/no issues >100hrs). That takes only about 3-4min for both engines.
It cleared the codes for both engines and we ran without any issues for the rest of the day.

I would love to know what exactly was the cause of the issue and if there is anything I can do to prevent it from happening again! I will definitely be observing the battery cut-off times, that makes sense, and I'm pretty sure I violated those today when trying to reset the R-S GPS signal. I will check the EP1 connector if I find it, too!

Anything else???

--

 

[MidnightRider]

I'm really second guessing right now that the key-off, battery off, sequence is really a thing. It DOES make perfect sense that if you force shutdown RS by holding the power button while the computers are still communicating that this would cause a comm error cause RS shutdown would short circuit any comm with the APS that the computers would be expecting to still be available. But shutting the battery off would also shut off the ecu and any other computers onboard - no? So if they all shutdown at the same time what could be the comm error. Unless it is a tiny window timing thing where the RS is offline a millisecond before the Yamaha system is fully powered down. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ All I know for sure is

1. Force shut down of RS can definitely cause a Eng Comm alarm and it may only appear on next start up (RS support confirms this).
2. RS has been suspect for all my Eng Comm alarms so far.
3. All my Eng Comm alarms have appeared non-critical and resolved with turning batteries off for 15 min or less.
4. Since I started waiting 40 sec after key-off to turn off the battery I've only had 1 Eng Comm alarm (and that was shortly after I saw GPS ERR on the RS).

One time I resolved it by disconnecting the RS wiring harness but that may have been a red herring and it was just the 15 min waiting time it took me to disconnect it. Sure wish there was a way to read codes off these engines. My understanding is that this a dealer only thing on the newer boats - correct? (@swatski?) You can see a lot of information in the Connext diagnostics screens like eng temp and oil flags. But I don't see any codes from the Eng Comm alarms when they happen. If I knew for sure it was the APS comm that was throwing the code I'd really be into the RS causing it for sure. Right now its just a gut instinct from what I've seen so far. So far this hasn't been a big deal for me, only 1 alarm in the last 10-15 full day boat outings and resolved relatively quickly. But sure be nice to know what it is that is happening.

 

[tek4fun]

Even without RS it is recommended to wait until the connext screen completely shuts down after turning the key(s) off before you turn the battery switches off. During this time, the connext display is writing information to it's Eeprom. If you have extra equipment added, make sure that you are not pulling power from the CAN communication connectors. Typically these connectors have Blue (CAN-), White (CAN+), Red (12v) and Black (Ground) wires. Some of the devices on the CAN network require this voltage to function. I do not see this as potential cause of the engine errors, but may affect other things on the boat. For me, the leading indicator for this being a CAN communication issue is the fact that the engines (ECUs) are not actually sending fault codes to the connext display. I will admit I do not know anything about the Ridesteady system, so I can say how it may play into generating the engine error messages. I might do some reading and learning of my own when I get time to see what all that system does.

 

[MidnightRider]

Even without RS it is recommended to wait until the connext screen completely shuts down after turning the key(s) off before you turn the battery switches off. During this time, the connext display is writing information to it's Eeprom. If you have extra equipment added, make sure that you are not pulling power from the CAN communication connectors. Typically these connectors have Blue (CAN-), White (CAN+), Red (12v) and Black (Ground) wires. Some of the devices on the CAN network require this voltage to function. I do not see this as potential cause of the engine errors, but may affect other things on the boat. For me, the leading indicator for this being a CAN communication issue is the fact that the engines (ECUs) are not actually sending fault codes to the connext display. I will admit I do not know anything about the Ridesteady system, so I can say how it may play into generating the engine error messages. I might do some reading and learning of my own when I get time to see what all that system does.

Thanks for the information - really nice to have electronic techs on this forum with these boats (it appears by your knowledge on this thread and others that you are in some capacity an electronics tech/guru). The RS basically installs by unplugging the APS modules and plugging the RS APS controller inline so that the RS APS controller can directly control the throttles based on GPS set speed. It also has a harness that plugs inline to the RPM wiring harness on each engine to do speed control based on engine rpm as well as engine rpm syncing. Of course it has a "brains box" and display to install as well. Here is the the install manual to give you an idea how it interfaces with the Yamaha system if you are interested.

https://www.hydrophase.com/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/manuals/Ridesteady_Installation_and_Users_Guide_Yamaha_v.1.05_compressed.pdf

 

[Mainah]

Shutting off the batteries with the keys still on is one thing that may cause the error message. Another is low voltage/voltage drop. Starting the engines with or right after the ballast pumps are running may cause this particularly with the second engine to be started. Floating for a long time runijng the stereo and other stuff is another culprit. Basically volatge drop is the issue and well maintained batteries help. Holding the key in the crank position too long can also cause this.

The canbus system is super sensitive in connext boats. The connext display handles all of the different communication protocols and translation. It would seem the buffer is not sufficient and programming to handle communcation errors should allow for an increased amount of time. A capacitor volatge regulator to allow for volatge drop at connect and at the ecu while the engines are cranking would not hurt either.

I was hopeful that connext 2.0 would improve these kinds of errors but it would seem it has not based on what some folks are reporting.

@tek4fun Great to have you on board. I just dabble in this kind of stuff and am an autodidact in circuits and canbus. Enterprise level computer data, code, analysis, and algorithms is what I do for living. I have a decent understanding of what is going from that but certainly just an amateur hack with regards to canbus. I have posted a couple of things with regards to the connext canbus you might find interesting linked below. @gmtech16450yz has also tried reading the engine data will a bunch of different automotive tools.

Ridesteady is just splicing into the 5v ref aps potentiometer and variably attentuating voltage in relationship to set speed or rpms. There is no canbus connection from ridesteady to the ecu. Ridesteady has its own closed canbus network to communicate from the controller to the nodes that connect to the aps.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/nmea-2000-and-the-1-8l.11934/#post-270466

https://jetboaters.net/threads/connext-joystick-nmea-info.11513/

 

[MidnightRider]

Shutting off the batteries with the keys still on is one thing that may cause the error message. Another is low voltage/voltage drop. Starting the engines with or right after the ballast pumps are running may cause this particularly with the second engine to be started. Floating for a long time runijng the stereo and other stuff is another culprit. Basically volatge drop is the issue and well maintained batteries help. Holding the key in the crank position too long can also cause this.

The canbus system is super sensitive in connext boats. The connext display handles all of the different communication protocols and translation. It would seem the buffer is not sufficient and programming to handle communcation errors should allow for an increased amount of time. A capacitor volatge regulator to allow for volatge drop at connect and at the ecu while the engines are cranking would not hurt either.

I was hopeful that connext 2.0 would improve these kinds of errors but it would seem it has not based on what some folks are reporting.

@tek4fun Great to have you on board. I just dabble in this kind of stuff and am an autodidact in circuits and canbus. Enterprise level computer data, code, analysis, and algorithms is what I do for living. I have a decent understanding of what is going from that but certainly just an amateur hack with regards to canbus. I have posted a couple of things with regards to the connext canbus you might find interesting linked below. @gmtech16450yz has also tried reading the engine data will a bunch of different automotive tools.

Ridesteady is just splicing into the 5v ref aps potentiometer and variably attentuating voltage in relationship to set speed or rpms. There is no canbus connection from ridesteady to the ecu. Ridesteady has its own closed canbus network to communicate from the controller to the nodes that connect to the aps.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/nmea-2000-and-the-1-8l.11934/#post-270466

https://jetboaters.net/threads/connext-joystick-nmea-info.11513/

@Mainah Thanks for weighing in with this extra info and also for giving a much more tech savvy and accurate description of the RS system interface then I could do. I'll say it again, we are fortunate to have electronics gurus like you and @tek4fun on this forum.

 

[Ridesteady]

Hey guys,

I just happened across this thread. A couple of notes.

If you see "ERR" where "GPS" or "OFF" normally is on the screen, that would require further investigation. It could mean a number of things, including communication was lost with the throttle nodes, the throttle nodes detected an error, etc. In other words, something's not right, and it could lead to a check engine light. Please send us a picture of the screen under SETTINGS -> SYSTEM INFO -> NODE STATUS. This will give us some information as to where to look next.

If there is an X where the GPS signal bars normally are, that means communication has been lost with the GPS receiver. This wouldn't cause a check engine light in itself. A power cycle of Ridesteady will reinitialize the GPS receiver and will usually resolve this. Contact us if it doesn't.

In terms of powering off, @MidnightRider is correct. You don't want to power off Ridesteady (i.e. "force" it off with the power button) within a minute of turning off your engines. The ECUs stay active for ~30s or so after you turn the engines off, so if you force Ridesteady off, there will be no more APS signal and the ECUs will throw the check engine light. This is the manual, but we decided to codify it in code in our latest revision (1.03) so that the power can't be "killed" prior to 1 minute of engines off. Generally speaking, unless you're really worried about a little battery usage, I would get the habit of just leaving Ridesteady to power itself down after 30 minutes (or whatever time you select in SETTINGS).

Also, as @MidnightRider pointed out, it's best to wait until the engine ECUs have turned off before turning off the battery. We've never had any issues here, but our test boat also doesn't have Connext and all the associated circuitry. It's possible that Ridesteady's power would drop milliseconds before the ECUs, which might throw the check engine light. Again, no evidence of this, but I would recommend just waiting a minute after powering off the engines to allow the ECUs to power down naturally before turning off the boat battery.

Lastly, @Mainah is correct when he says that we don't interface with the Connext comm (CAN) system. There'd be limited upside and a whole lotta downside to doing that, so we stay independent of that path.

 

[Ridesteady]

In Connext, if you hold down SYS CTRL and go to "Test", it will show you any CURRENT diag codes. Unfortunately, there's no access to any history that I'm aware of. Yamaha Diag code "1" means "normal".

Once the check engine light comes on, regardless of the root cause of it illuminating, it may take several engine start cycles and run time before it clears, despite the issue not presenting.

 

[Ridesteady]

Yet another point piggybacking on @Mainah 's post.

As far as electronics go, starting the engine is the most difficult time. Even fresh new batteries will drop a couple volts as they send as much power as they can to the starter. Voltage regulators, such as the ones on Ridesteady, will respond to the fluctuating input voltages, but they're a closed-loop feedback system that do take a finite time to settle.

So, the best thing you can do for electronics that need to be operational during the starting process (like Ridesteady and Connext) , is to keep any unnecessary loads switched off (or volume turned down) when starting the engine. Ballast pumps, stereos, amplifiers, etc. Just wait until the engines are started then power them back on. This will be especially helpful the older and/or the more drained the battery gets.