AGM & TPPL - CHARGING TEST

[Canuckjetboater]

Don't want to read my lengthy post? Skip to the "Final Key Point" then, if interest, go back!
New to Jet Boating - and I just learned IMO something valuable. First- to set the stage: Most recently I came from express cruising. Big engines (high performance 502's). EC's big engines come with very powerful alternators to run electronics, ice-makers, refrigerators, radar, TVs etc. This is the land of series 31 AGMs and TPPLs. Long distance cruisers are yet another whole story. BUT - in short, regarding battery size, bigger and more powerful is better - in THAT world.
My 2020 Yamaha SX195 vcame with an Interstate 24M-XHD. Not a crap battery but IMO, entry level. IMO an AGM would be faaaar better with an AGM thin plate pure lead (TPPL) being the Holy Grail. My experience has shown me that both of these batteries are super fast to re-charge and super slow to discharge (I mentioned this on another thread). Biggest feature of TPPL, IMO, is that they LOVE a big charge and will accept ALL of what most chargers/alternators can throw at them.
So.....several buddies and I all decided to get new batteries. As these would be new batteries it provided an opportunity to assess charging rates. One friend and I purchased Series 27 TPPLs the other a Series 31 TPPL. We bought a case of beer and made some nachos. In suggested we get a new "smart" charger. Voted down. Started to charge the 31. I thought the charging was going waaay to slow. Called a buddy who said you guys should know better - AGMs should have a "smart" charger TPPLs have to have one to charge properly. I went out and bought a "smart" charger $140.00 on sale for $99.00.
SIDE BAR: "smart" charger? Guys have written books on this but basically - charging profile varies but must include the following charge phases: *Desulphation *Soft Start *BULK charging *Absorption charging*Analyse and charge *Maintain - charge to maximun at low amps.
Soooo..... we hooked the new "smart" charger up to the 31 and holy $hit. Charger displayed a battery % charge at 70%. Then the charging started at 2 amps...we went WHAT, 2 amps????? That's stupid???? Then BAM 25 amps, 2 amps, 25 amps. The charge immediately jumped to 80%. Next, the charge varied up and down around 8 amps. Then BAM a full 25 amps and the charge rose to 90%. Next the amps varied again while charge rose to 95%. Then for 15 minutes or so minutes the charge varied from 1 amp to 9 amps - up and down. Finally, it ran for about 15 minutes on 1-2 amps showed 15 volts and 100% charged. Called friend back who said - call me after you charge the series 27 and tell me what you make of that. did that - the Series 27 followed exactly the same profile but (as expected) faster - quite a bit. Called my friend back. He asked - so what do you now know about TPPLs regarding a jet boat?

AGM or (better yet) an AGM TPPL and Jet Boats:

• AGMs charge faster and discharge slower than any other battery chemistry.
• AGM TPPLs take the advantages of basic AGMs to a whole new level.
• AGMs should be charged with a smart charger, TPPLs must be.
• TPPLs with their thinner 99.99 pure non-recycled lead have much greater surface area and obviously weigh more than regular batteries. The series 24 (more about that later) TPPL I purchased weighed about 10 pounds more than the Interstate 24M-XHD (which is itself heavier than many G 24s)
• TPPLs love big amps but will also accept all the power sent to them by an alternator or stator.....CRUCIAL for our type of boat chargers(Stators)

What does this mean to a Jet Boater?

• I was able to get a tremendously powerful (slow to discharge) and quick to re-charge battery in a "small" Series 24. Yes, I returned my series 27 for a series 24 (reason later)
• If I anchor at a sand bar and use the stereo this battery will not only last longer but re-charge waaay faster. If you have two 1000w amps then for your two battery set-up get an extra (house) 24 TPPL.
• That this type of battery is quick to accept a charge and not self-limit the amperage accepts is CRUCIAL, because our stators do not throw a lot of amps out so - unless we want to take our boat for a long re-charging run or have to put it on a charger back at the dock or on land at home - this battery is a tremendous help.

Called my friend back and said I learned that in a Jet Boat a bigger series battery is not necessarily better. In fact - a smaller battery that accepts a charge waaay faster and discharges waaaay slower is far better given the "different" charging system of a jet boat. You don't have to get a huge battery to get performance - just a different type! The correct chemistry/type of battery is far more important in a jet boat. He said - well, you got it buddy!

Real world:
Installed my fully charged series 24 AGM-TPPL yesterday. While I was installing a modified fortress anchor in the bow anchor area the Admiral was listening to the stereo. I decided to try a test. Turned off all electronics. Read the volts. They were down. Started the engine - at idle only, tied to the dock and let it just idle away - the volts climbed faaast. In a few minutes, at idle, the full voltage was displayed. Turned off the engine, waited a few minutes, keyed ignition on, still full voltage.

My recommendation:

• For single engine jet boats use a series 24 AGM TPPL (same size WAY more performance) for twins 2X 24 AGM TPPL
• If you have a massive stereo get a "house" 24 - AGM TPPL.....the synergy of combining two TPPLs over two "regular" batteries is said to be about 4X as robust.

Final Key Point:

From my charging "experiment" and my real world charging experience - IMO - it is far better, when using a jet boat charging system, to have a smaller battery, that our charging system can charge fully - and - much faster, than a big battery that our systems can only charge to 80% - and - at a slower rate!
I believe that with this AGM-TPPL battery I will be able to leave my boat in its wet slip with - no shore power charging battery maintenance - for the summer. Time will tell if I'm right.

 

[anmut]

That's interesting, thanks for the write up. We're all VERY interested in how many charging amps that stator puts back onto the batteries from either the 1100 or 1800cc engines. Any chance you could give us some readings? Does it vary with RPM?

 

[Canuckjetboater]

That's interesting, thanks for the write up. We're all VERY interested in how many charging amps that stator puts back onto the batteries from either the 1100 or 1800cc engines. Any chance you could give us some readings? Does it vary with RPM?

@anmut.....that is something I am trying to determine. I am very familiar with the charging profiles of alternators found on cruisers and I/O boats which do vary with rpm but find it difficult to find any data on pwc/jet boat stator charging. From what appeared to happen yesterday, my stator put out enough amperage to charge my TPPL at idle. How much amperage, might require a meter to determine. The tech at my dealer thought the max would be around 25 amps. Here's food for thought......When I bought my 2018 Yamaha SVHO FX Cruiser (in Canada) I noticed Yamaha sold my model (only in the U.S.) with up-grades as a "Limited" version. One of the upgrades was a 12 volt socket to power inflators for tubes etc. When I wanted to install a 12 volt charging socket on my Waverunner I was told by Yamaha HQ I couldn't do so as my stator wouldn't support the install and that the stator on the U.S. "limited" model was different. So, yet another question - does Yamaha make stators with different amperages? Hmmmmmm.

 

[anmut]

According to the manual it is a flywheel magneto:

Meaning that voltage would vary with RPM, correct?

A few posts down on this thread a guy claims that he found 25amps coming from stator.

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[Dave burke]

Very helpful and interesting @Canuckjetboater. What kind of smart charger did you get? Will my promariner work with these batteries?

and does the brand of these batteries matter? Thx

 

[Canuckjetboater]

According to the manual it is a flywheel magneto:
View attachment 126159
Meaning that voltage would vary with RPM, correct?

A few posts down on this thread a guy claims that he found 25amps coming from stator.

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@anmut ....yes, correct. Yamaha U.S.A. and Yamaha Canada referred to it as a "stator" but your terminology, imo, is correct....and yes, I have heard the value of 25 amps as being the output but haven't found that value in an actual Yamaha document and unbelievable to me neither Yamaha U.S.A nor Yamaha Canada could tell me.....they both said ask your dealer.....yeah sure - why do you dufuses think I am calling you? LOL

 

[Canuckjetboater]

Very helpful and interesting @Canuckjetboater. What kind of smart charger did you get? Will my promariner work with these batteries?

and does the brand of these batteries matter? Thx

@Dave burke - Hello Dave.

The Charger:
Since I am in Canada (not far from you lol) I got it at Canadian Tire- but this type of charger is now widely available. The two features my tech friend said I should make sure of were:

• Fully automatic multi-stage charging
• Microprocessor monitoring of battery status that is used to regulate the charge cycle

The one I chose had a feature that when "on automatic" was selected it would automatically choose a charging amperage at any time from 2-25 amps to avoid overheating - and - properly tailor the charge for maximum charging. It would then vary this charge continuously based on the feedback it received from the battery as it charged. I used this feature instead of self-selecting the amperage. It also had a neat feature where in an LED readout window it showed what it was doing by displaying every few seconds: battery charged status as a %, battery voltage as volts, present amperage charging status in amps.

Using a ProMariner Charger with AGMs or AGM TPPLs?
Don't you hate it when someone says it depends? I would think it very likely that your ProMariner charger would be fine. To be sure I would double-check using the manual, google it or even call the manufacturer. I found ProMariner to be very helpful when I was selecting a charger for the AGMs on my last cruiser. If it was not suitable for AGMs or TPPLs (easy for me to say) IMO it would be worth buying another charger as IMO the value of a TPPL for we jet boaters is too good to ignore.

Brand of AGM or AGM TPPL?
Before buying my my first TPPL a few days ago I bought 5 series 31 AGMs in 2016. At the time there were a number of top shelf brands available. I bought mine at West Marine but Penn-Deka and Sam's Club had good choices too. By now (2020) there should be even more. The technology does not lend itself to "cheap" imitators so that is of some comfort. TPPLs are even less likely to be made in a "cheap" manner as to start with they are composed (unless flat-out counterfeit) by using 99.99% pure lead plates so only a top shelf manufacturer could do that and make any money. IMO any reputable battery brand advertising its product as TPPL will also state it is constructed of 99.99% pure lead. As a secondary check a Group/Series 24 (which I recommend for Yamaha Jet Boats) should have (approximately) the following statistics: Amp Hours Ah 76.....Reserve Minutes 160.....CCA 800.....MCA1000. A Group 24 TPPL battery should also weigh about 58 pounds due to the increased weight of the extra lead plates.

Hope this has been some help, Dave, feel free to ask any further questions. As you may have noted I just hate talking about boats! LOL

 

[HangOutdoors]

Link Battery please, looking to buy two for my planned battery upgrade install.

Something like this?

Ultra High Performance Group 24 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM Battery | West Marine

Check out our Ultra High Performance Group 24 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM Battery and more from West Marine!

www.westmarine.com

 

[Canuckjetboater]

Link Battery please, looking to buy two for my planned battery upgrade install.

Something like this?

Ultra High Performance Group 24 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM Battery | West Marine

Check out our Ultra High Performance Group 24 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM Battery and more from West Marine!

www.westmarine.com

@HangOutdoors ..... yes, Northstars are awesome!

 

[HangOutdoors]

Couple of those will take some bucks out the ole wallet.

 

[Canuckjetboater]

According to the manual it is a flywheel magneto:
View attachment 126159
Meaning that voltage would vary with RPM, correct?

A few posts down on this thread a guy claims that he found 25amps coming from stator.

Forums - Greenhulk Personal Watercraft Performance Forums

vBulletin Forums

greenhulk.net

 

[Mainah]

@Canuckjetboater - I appreciate the effort you have put into this. I also strongly recommend AGM batteries in a boat. There is a bit more to the story/equation. Hopefully you and others benefit from what I have below to compliment what you generously posted.

• TPPL is mostly a marketing term that got coined a long time ago to separate cheap AGMs from good ones in the earlier days of AGMs. Thinner plates does mean that you can have a more effective surface area to receive and discharge electrons. Just as important is that the plates are 99.99% pure lead. Nearly all TPPL are 99.99% Pure Lead and visa versa. Using my Interstate G31 AGM-7 batteries as an example - they are in fact TPPL even though the designation is not used in their marketing today. They are also 99.99% pure lead. Most of the AGMs out there in the US market are rather good in this regard. Sure Northstar, Interstate, and Trojan may be a bit better (lots of these are made in the same factories the same way and a brand slapped on) but not sure the cost justifies it unless expect to use the warranty (factored into the cost). I ended up with a great deal on my interstates as I worked those in with my boat dealer who is a Interstate dealer at the time of purchase. I am not saying the TPPL is not better or that all AGMs are pure TPPL and 99.99% pure lead but there is certainly less variation in AGMs today then there use to be. Northstar is certainly one of the very best. Nothing wrong with going with a budget priced Duracell either as the performance won't be significantly less but the price will be.
• I have no doubt that a G24 AGM can complete a full charge cycle from the same DoD as a bigger AGM given the same available amps.
• The biggest factor not mentioned above is longevity.
  • DoD (Depth of Discharge , measure in percent) matters in the number of total charge cycles and a bigger battery will have a lesser DoD given the same demands if starting from a full charge.
  • C rate (amps being consumed/battery capacity in amps) demand matters in that if the rms demand is too high it will degrade a smaller battery quicker.
    • By combining my start and house batteries of the same the demand is shared and the load/C rate is split between both batteries
      • This does not matter if the continuous demand is less than 20 amps but I regularly put loads of greater than 100 amps and splitting that across a larger bank the batteries don't degrade as quickly.
      • Another example of this some may be more familiar with is in lithium power tools. What happens when you try and power a reciprocating or circular saw though thick hard wood on a small battery pack vs one double the size? It hits thermal overload far faster if it even has enough amps to provide the torque needed from the get go.
• If there is no method of charging the batteries besides the engines/stators the gains from having a better SoC (State of Charge, inverse of DoD) by being able to more fully charge is relevant but only under 80% SoC as AGMs as not nearly as sensitive to long term storage SoC as SLAs. The greater the DoD/Lesser SoC the more relevant it becomes.
• In your real world test surface charge played a role in your results. A load must be put on the battery to dissipate the surface charge before getting an accurate reading.
  • I read over 13 volts after taking my boat off the shore charger or when the stators are outputting without a heavy load. If I run all three ballast pumps with low to moderate stereo volume (I do have a good sized custom system capable of consuming 2000w rms at max volume) I see the voltage quickly drop to 12.7 volts. Once I shut off the engines with the same load I see it quickly drop to 12.3 volts. If I turn off the combine switch (I keep it on now when operating the boat) I see the house voltage drop to 12.1. To your point though the stators don't keep up with high demands as I can see the voltage drop running on plane when my stereo is at high volume and the bass hits which means it is drawing everything the stators are outputting and some of the juice already stored in the batteries big (yes this is a simplified explanation with multiple other things at play).
• To sum up; it is far more important to size the battery bank to the load. DoD does play a role but that role is secondary to a point. If no shore power or solar charging is available then it does become important to ensure that batteries don't sit a high DoD for a long period. There really is not any getting around having enough amps and load capacity for the demand. If that demand is large and the battery bank is small but only barely able to keep up it will need to be replaced far sooner.
  • For some a single G24 will be enough. For others it may be a single G31, two G24, two G31, and so on.
  • AGMs are what I recommend in a boat because they are sealed, receive amps well, are not overly sensitive to DoD, are not very temperature sensitive, hold up to vibration well, don't carry the higher fire risk and cost of lithium, and have a good life span.

I have not tested the output of the stators but I only count on 10-15 amps rms available per engine after critical loads are powered (plug coils, ecu, etc). Yes this is a low ball guess but better safe than sorry. Pro Mariner are good chargers and while their marketing pages put them in the "waterproof" category I don't think the popular pro sport line is truly waterproof. I personally selected NOCO Genius for the truly waterproof build quality and smart features. Either of those brands and some others should get the AGM charging job done just fine.

Yes everyone here just hates talking boat stuff to death and esoteric levels here

 

[Canuckjetboater]

Couple of those will take some bucks out the ole wallet.

@HangOutdoors .....sure they will - but - what is your time and convenience worth? For me - who wants to leave my boat at the dock all summer (minus a couple of cleaning haul-outs) - having a battery that will allow this is pricele$$ I am praying that this battery will allow me to avoid the PITA of having to keep charging my battery via a land/shore power based charger.

 

[Canuckjetboater]

According to the manual it is a flywheel magneto:
View attachment 126159
Meaning that voltage would vary with RPM, correct?

A few posts down on this thread a guy claims that he found 25amps coming from stator.

Forums - Greenhulk Personal Watercraft Performance Forums

vBulletin Forums

greenhulk.net

@anmut ......WHOA - GREAT CHART POST!!!!!....just noticed on your chart (after using putting my reading glasses on LOL) "Battery Capacity - 12V 85Ah.....THAT is another reason to buy a Series/Group 24 AGM/TPPL..... because the 24s will not have a greater Ah (amp hour) charging NEED than our Yamahas can provide whereas a 27 or 31 Series AGM TPPL will probably exceed our boat's charging capability and therefore would never receive a full charge- deadly to any battery - which I suspected but I believe this chart now confirms!

 

[Canuckjetboater]

@Canuckjetboater - I appreciate the effort you have put into this. I also strongly recommend AGM batteries in a boat. There is a bit more to the story/equation. Hopefully you and others benefit from what I have below to compliment what you generously posted.

• TPPL is mostly a marketing term that got coined a long time ago to separate cheap AGMs from good ones in the earlier days of AGMs. Thinner plates does mean that you can have a more effective surface area to receive and discharge electrons. Just as important is that the plates are 99.99% pure lead. Nearly all TPPL are 99.99% Pure Lead and visa versa. Using my Interstate G31 AGM-7 batteries as an example - they are in fact TPPL even though the designation is not used in their marketing today. They are also 99.99% pure lead. Most of the AGMs out there in the US market are rather good in this regard. Sure Northstar, Interstate, and Trojan may be a bit better (lots of these are made in the same factories the same way and a brand slapped on) but not sure the cost justifies it unless expect to use the warranty (factored into the cost). I ended up with a great deal on my interstates as I worked those in with my boat dealer who is a Interstate dealer at the time of purchase. I am not saying the TPPL is not better or that all AGMs are pure TPPL and 99.99% pure lead but there is certainly less variation in AGMs today then there use to be. Northstar is certainly one of the very best. Nothing wrong with going with a budget priced Duracell either as the performance won't be significantly less but the price will be.
• I have no doubt that a G24 AGM can complete a full charge cycle from the same DoD as a bigger AGM given the same available amps.
• The biggest factor not mentioned above is longevity.
  • DoD (Depth of Discharge , measure in percent) matters in the number of total charge cycles and a bigger battery will have a lesser DoD given the same demands if starting from a full charge.
  • C rate (amps being consumed/battery capacity in amps) demand matters in that if the rms demand is too high it will degrade a smaller battery quicker.
    • By combining my start and house batteries of the same the demand is shared and the load/C rate is split between both batteries
      • This does not matter if the continuous demand is less than 20 amps but I regularly put loads of greater than 100 amps and splitting that across a larger bank the batteries don't degrade as quickly.
      • Another example of this some may be more familiar with is in lithium power tools. What happens when you try and power a reciprocating or circular saw though thick hard wood on a small battery pack vs one double the size? It hits thermal overload far faster if it even has enough amps to provide the torque needed from the get go.
• If there is no method of charging the batteries besides the engines/stators the gains from having a better SoC (State of Charge, inverse of DoD) by being able to more fully charge is relevant but only under 80% SoC as AGMs as not nearly as sensitive to long term storage SoC as SLAs. The greater the DoD/Lesser SoC the more relevant it becomes.
• In your real world test surface charge played a role in your results. A load must be put on the battery to dissipate the surface charge before getting an accurate reading.
  • I read over 13 volts after taking my boat off the shore charger or when the stators are outputting without a heavy load. If I run all three ballast pumps with low to moderate stereo volume (I do have a good sized custom system capable of consuming 2000w rms at max volume) I see the voltage quickly drop to 12.7 volts. Once I shut off the engines with the same load I see it quickly drop to 12.3 volts. If I turn off the combine switch (I keep it on now when operating the boat) I see the house voltage drop to 12.1. To your point though the stators don't keep up with high demands as I can see the voltage drop running on plane when my stereo is at high volume and the bass hits which means it is drawing everything the stators are outputting and some of the juice already stored in the batteries big (yes this is a simplified explanation with multiple other things at play).
• To sum up; it is far more important to size the battery bank to the load. DoD does play a role but that role is secondary to a point. If no shore power or solar charging is available then it does become important to ensure that batteries don't sit a high DoD for a long period. There really is not any getting around having enough amps and load capacity for the demand. If that demand is large and the battery bank is small but only barely able to keep up it will need to be replaced far sooner.
  • For some a single G24 will be enough. For others it may be a single G31, two G24, two G31, and so on.
  • AGMs are what I recommend in a boat because they are sealed, receive amps well, are not overly sensitive to DoD, are not very temperature sensitive, hold up to vibration well, don't carry the higher fire risk and cost of lithium, and have a good life span.

I have not tested the output of the stators but I only count on 10-15 amps rms available per engine after critical loads are powered (plug coils, ecu, etc). Yes this is a low ball guess but better safe than sorry. Pro Mariner are good chargers and while their marketing pages put them in the "waterproof" category I don't think the popular pro sport line is truly waterproof. I personally selected NOCO Genius for the truly waterproof build quality and smart features. Either of those brands and some others should get the AGM charging job done just fine.

Yes everyone here just hates talking boat stuff to death and esoteric levels here

@Mainah thank you for your very informative post- great information and IMO very well thought out! ..... may I respectfully disagree with one of your suggestions. While I agree that there are not significant differences in quality/performance between brands of AGMs and TPPLs I do believe that there is a significant difference between the abilities of AGMs and TPPLs. My most recent data is that (with some minor variance) using group/series 24 as the example (the IMO main differences): MCA: AGMs (700+) TPPL (1000+) Charge/Discharge Cycles: AGMs 300 @50% TPPLs 500 @80% Charging Acceptance Rate (IMO a critical factor for jet boaters - particularly those who "wet slip") AGMs 40% of Ah (amp hours) TPPL 300% of Ah....Now as for your application...yes, you do have tremendous amperage draws - quite likely beyond the charging capability of your boat and requiring you to dock/trailer charge. In your position - because I can see no way you can avoid dock/trailer charging - I would purchase two or three series 31 TPPLs (and wire the 3 as a single battery -I'm sure you known how to do this but - many don't). That your system could likely never charge them above 80% (best case) would be irrelevant even though it would lead to sulfation and a downward charging spiral because you would have to charge them after each use anyway. I am having to come to grips with the limited charging capability of our systems and its effect (or more accurately its lack of effect) regarding charging our batteries. On express cruisers where friends have gone from 5 or 6 AGMs to TPPLs (and on board charging is not an issue) they relate to me the difference is astounding. As for my application I know for sure that the 24 TPPL is a far better choice for me than the 24M-XHD or an AGM would be. How much better and will it prove to be enough only time will tell.

 

[Mainah]

@Canuckjetboater - Interesting. Perhaps my knowledge of tppl is outdated or was wrong to begin with. That said the only battery tech I was previously aware of with a 3.0C Rating on charge or discharge was Lithium and even then only the really good ones. DoD down to 80% for more cycles is astounding as well. C Discharge rate will matter with any battery and these amazing on that front as well. In all the ratings sound nearly unbelievable or inflated. Correct me if I am wrong but chemistry is still the same just a thinner plate and more surface area? The ratings could be all correct but something seems off given my previous knowledge (I am not a battery expert by trade). Perhaps I am just getting old and need to read up on some fresher stuff.

Yes I am on a lift with a dedicated shore charger on the boat, a through hull outlet, and shore power at the lift. Yes the batteries always require charging from the shore charger after every outing. Yes I remove and charge the batteries in the off season. Yes I should have a third g31 to further spread the C rate demand but don’t have the space to spare with ballast and storage needs (I also have an inverter and built a custom kegerator that takes up space).

You may be interested in a couple of my other threads that get way into the weeds on audio stuff like Oscilloscope testing/tuning and DSP if you head down the audio upgrade path. I look forward to a long term review of the tppl.

 

[Dave burke]

Fascinating stuff guys. Much appreciated although I’d probably have to read this thread three more times to really understand...

@Mainah, any idea how much your interstate batteries cost now?

@Canuckjetboater, for what it’s worth, I wet-slip my boat all summer with original batteries and no problems so far. BUT I added two more amps late last year so this year would have been a bigger test. Unfortunately haven’t been able to put the boat in the water because of Covid. I’ll have to live surreptitiously through you guys!

 

[Canuckjetboater]

Fascinating stuff guys. Much appreciated although I’d probably have to read this thread three more times to really understand...

@Mainah, any idea how much your interstate batteries cost now?

@Canuckjetboater, for what it’s worth, I wet-slip my boat all summer with original batteries and no problems so far. BUT I added two more amps late last year so this year would have been a bigger test. Unfortunately haven’t been able to put the boat in the water because of Covid. I’ll have to live surreptitiously through you guys!

@Dave burke ....Dave what battery do you have: manufacturer, group & size, chemistry?

 

[Dave burke]

Start is an Interstate, 1000 CA, group 24. House is a Sportsman (I think, can’t see all the letters in the pic) deep cycle by Mid State Batteries. 615 CA, group 24.

Not sure this is relevant but I got the boat in July 2017 and the Interstate totally failed in the first couple of weeks. But it’s been fine ever since it was replaced.

 

[Canuckjetboater]

@Canuckjetboater - Interesting. Perhaps my knowledge of tppl is outdated or was wrong to begin with. That said the only battery tech I was previously aware of with a 3.0C Rating on charge or discharge was Lithium and even then only the really good ones. DoD down to 80% for more cycles is astounding as well. C Discharge rate will matter with any battery and these amazing on that front as well. In all the ratings sound nearly unbelievable or inflated. Correct me if I am wrong but chemistry is still the same just a thinner plate and more surface area? The ratings could be all correct but something seems off given my previous knowledge (I am not a battery expert by trade). Perhaps I am just getting old and need to read up on some fresher stuff.

Yes I am on a lift with a dedicated shore charger on the boat, a through hull outlet, and shore power at the lift. Yes the batteries always require charging from the shore charger after every outing. Yes I remove and charge the batteries in the off season. Yes I should have a third g31 to further spread the C rate demand but don’t have the space to spare with ballast and storage needs (I also have an inverter and built a custom kegerator that takes up space).

You may be interested in a couple of my other threads that get way into the weeds on audio stuff like Oscilloscope testing/tuning and DSP if you head down the audio upgrade path. I look forward to a long term review of the tppl.

@Mainah .....yes, most interesting, esoteric, way into the weeds but - super fun and super informative. The day I stop learning is the day someone is writing my obituary - or maybe a few hours earlier if they are slow off the mark. Neither do I claim to be a battery expert and since I have not personally tested these batteries can not speak with absolute certainty. Regarding the TPPLs performance - I have been told that their enhanced abilities (even over AGM) are that (as you say) the the plates are thinner (hence more of them = more surface area) and the plates are 99.99% pure (supposedly virgin) lead whereas other batteries, even their AGM brothers, have lead with many recycled components that are claimed to be detrimental to their performance. It is claimed that this synergy - between these two factors - is what makes them exceptional. Is there some manufacturer's hype associated with these - probably. Do tests in labs, where loads are placed on them and cycles determined, reflect the real world - probably not. I have no idea as yet as to how much better the 24 TPPL I just installed, yesterday, in my Yamaha - with its no offence intended - "puny" charging system will perform. On a cruiser's forum I was the first one to test the AGMs - back in 2013. In 2014 I bought a bigger cruiser and added 5 series 31 AGMs. My friend had an identical cruiser (one year older) with series 31 XDs. He was so impressed with the sustained power and super fast recharge times of my AGMs that he got rid of his almost new batteries and installed AGMs. When cruisers are at anchor there comes a point where your house battery bank reaches critical discharge state - unless you want to hurt them. You have to shut things off or run your generator. I asked the forum's members, many of whom balked at the cost of AGMs, how long they had to run their generators X how many trips (most of our members generators were gas - 5Kw or 7.5 Kw Kohlers) before the cost of gas to operate those generators made the increased cost of AGMs was irrelevant. The next boating season two of the forum moderators bought TPPLs. One reported on his first anchorage after install that the TPPLs were so robust that he had forgotten to start his generator and while the TPPLs were doing just fine the ice in his ice-maker was melting - you can not run an ice-maker on battery power (unless with a big inverter) due to the ice-makers heating cycle needed to release the ice cubes from their "tray". He thought that was funny but he was shocked by the difference compared to his previous high quality batteries. The other moderator stated he never would have believed the difference. I have just purchased an expensive battery and a not inexpensive battery charger and will be donating a new battery to anyone at the marina who looks like they could use one. I hope I have not wasted my time and money. If my "research" and experience are correct I have not. If I have.....my side bet with the Admiral (aka my wife) .....do you REALLY need that "stuff"..... will result in massive sucking-up and copious foot massages!