Here come the hybrids

[Jim_in_Delaware]

While I get what you're saying, what segment isn't filled by an EV yet? Your subcompact SUV is basically an EV6. Its not as tall as an escape or something like that, but it pretty much fits that bill.

Thing is, however, when I go to Kia and look at local inventory for an EV6, I see a limited amount of vehicles for sale and they are priced at $56K - $59K. Still not priced for the masses.

In the meantime, I have a new set of tires and wheels for our 2007 Jeep Commander and we will keep it for at least another year.

Jim

 

[@JC!]

It makes the most sense to slow down and see what happens, unless as a CEO you just expect the taxpayer to bail you out again if you have stagnant ICE product, massive losses on EVs, and no buyers.

CEOs (well, except for the clueless Mary Barra) would likely love to put the brakes on EV development but the insane government mandates require it and activist investment funds demand it even though it's killing profitability (which you'd think should be these funds number one concern). Consumer demand is NOT driving this course.

To address your point earlier about bailouts and consolidation, why do you think the commie unions are rioting right now and demanding ludicrous wage increases and other concessions? They realize that their employment future is going up in flames thanks to these mandates and moronic investment in the EV snake oil and are trying to lock in their wages, benefits and ability to strike when the plants are inevitably shuttered now while they still have bargaining power.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

To address your point earlier about bailouts and consolidation, why do you think the commie unions are rioting right now and demanding ludicrous wage increases and other concessions?

Not going to discuss what a fair wage might be for an autoworker, but it’s interesting that the CEO of Ford was paid almost $21 million dollars last year and the CEO of GM was paid almost $29 million.

I think we should also keep in mind that the auto industry is a global industry and not limited to the U.S. While there are unique vehicles manufactured for each market, there is also a lot on commonality between models sold in different countries.

Jim

 

[TimW451]

Average price of a new car in the US is $48k, per Kelly Blue Book. So an EV or Hybrid in the $50-60k range isn't outrageous. Hyundai and Kia's problem is that they aren't eligible for the federal $7,500 incentive. BUT, it still took the Model 3 for Tesla to take off, not just survive as a niche player. The old guard needs to put out inexpensive EVs. "Premium Luxury" vehicles (as the industry calls them) may be profitable, but don't have a lot of volume. That was find during the COVID years, but that's over and they don't have a good trickle down effect. Lower priced, volume vehicles are needed. Ford should be crushing the price point of the Mach-E. It is dumb for GM to kill off the Bolt. But, they'll be short sighted, as always, and focus on profit margin (EV trucks) instead of market share. For the Big 3, they need to focus on market share and understand their product is going to be a Loss Leader for a few more years.

More hybrids are sold than EVs. "WHAT?"Not all hybrids are plug-ins. Prius, Maverick, F150. So, one doesn't have to buy or be able to plug it in. But when the 2035 EV mandate comes, only the plug-in hybrids are the exception.

https://www.bts.gov/content/gasoline-hybrid-and-electric-vehicle-sales

Rivian, the product is nice, but I say bankruptcy or bought by someone else by end of 2024.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Average price of a new car in the US is $48k, per Kelly Blue Book. So an EV or Hybrid in the $50-60k range isn't outrageous. Hyundai and Kia's problem is that they aren't eligible for the federal $7,500 incentive. BUT, it still took the Model 3 for Tesla to take off, not just survive as a niche player. The old guard needs to put out inexpensive EVs. "Premium Luxury" vehicles (as the industry calls them) may be profitable, but don't have a lot of volume. That was find during the COVID years, but that's over and they don't have a good trickle down effect. Lower priced, volume vehicles are needed. Ford should be crushing the price point of the Mach-E. It is dumb for GM to kill off the Bolt. But, they'll be short sighted, as always, and focus on profit margin (EV trucks) instead of market share. For the Big 3, they need to focus on market share and understand their product is going to be a Loss Leader for a few more years.

More hybrids are sold than EVs. "WHAT?"Not all hybrids are plug-ins. Prius, Maverick, F150. So, one doesn't have to buy or be able to plug it in. But when the 2035 EV mandate comes, only the plug-in hybrids are the exception.

https://www.bts.gov/content/gasoline-hybrid-and-electric-vehicle-sales

Rivian, the product is nice, but I say bankruptcy or bought by someone else by end of 2024.

I would offer, that in 2019, pre-covid, the average price for a new car was about 39K, fast forward 4 years and the average price is about 48K. Part of the increase in price, I believe, is some of the automakers focusing on fewer, more profitable cars.

I would agree that $50-$60K isn’t outrageous, but it’s more than I’m willing to pay for at this point in time for a second car. I agree that lower price, higher volume vehicles are needed. I could buy a really fun $35-$40K ICE vehicle right now. Yes, maybe over 5 years, the vehicle cost might be similar, but when I look at the monthly payment, I have a limit. And its not that I can’t afford paying more, its just there is other things I would rather do with the money.

Jim

 

[@JC!]

Not going to discuss what a fair wage might be for (anyone)...

Why not? A fair wage is by definition whatever an employee agrees with their employer to be paid to work a specified job. If the employee wants to make more, the employee needs provide more value to their employer, find a different employer that values the job more, find a higher value job or start their own company/become self-employed and find out what a "fair wage" really means. And just to help out, what a CEO makes has no bearing on what the company pays to any of its employees, if one doesn't like that, following the earlier advice is the remedy, not having a hissy fit and demanding more pay for the same (or less in the case of the UAW) work.

I'll also add that if you think the price of a new car has risen dramatically in the previous couple of years, just wait for these new union contracts to kick in!

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Why not? A fair wage is by definition whatever an employee agrees with their employer to be paid to work a specified job. If the employee wants to make more, the employee needs provide more value to their employer, find a different employer that values the job more, find a higher value job or start their own company/become self-employed and find out what a "fair wage" really means. And just to help out, what a CEO makes has no bearing on what the company pays to any of its employees, if one doesn't like that, following the earlier advice is the remedy, not having a hissy fit and demanding more pay for the same (or less in the case of the UAW) work.

I'll also add that if you think the price of a new car has risen dramatically in the previous couple of years, just wait for these new union contracts to kick in!

The union strike wasn’t a “hissy fit”. As you note, a fair wage is whatever the employer/employees decides it is. Ford has apparently agreed with the UAW what that rate should be and GM, reportedly, is also close to agreement with the UAW.

They are all for profit, publicly owned companies. CEO pay, other management pay and employee pay all affect the bottom line profit. Don’t have any idea how the UAW wage increase may affect the price of cars (all I do know, is that this isn’t 1970 and the car isn’t fully assembled and painted by hand anymore.) CEO payments in this country are crazy and they are set by board members who decide what to pay one another. The CEO of Toyota made $6.9 million dollars this year (this is a 47% in compensation from last year.) Like his counterparts in the Big Three, this is a combination of salary, incentive, and perks. Hard for me to believe that the CEO of GM adds an additional $22 million to the job she does over that of the Toyota CEO.

Jim

 

[TimW451]

… but it’s more than I’m willing to pay for at this point in time for a second car. I agree that lower price, higher volume vehicles are needed. I could buy a really fun $35-$40K ICE vehicle right now. …

Jim

Spot on! I had a similar case with my daughter starting to drive and my desire to have a car to compliment the truck. I’ll drop $30-35k for the luxury of a new, safer, cleaner car in either case, but $65k +? Nope.

 

[BlkGS]

Spot on! I had a similar case with my daughter starting to drive and my desire to have a car to compliment the truck. I’ll drop $30-35k for the luxury of a new, safer, cleaner car in either case, but $65k +? Nope.

We aren't the customers they want anyways. They want people who keep trading cars in every 2-3 years because someone once told them they need a lot of upkeep around that time. They want people who instead of paying a $1200 bill for tires will trade the vehicle in on something new. Even better would be if you would perpetually lease, because then they can plan inventory and such.

 

[zpaul]

We aren't the customers they want anyways. They want people who keep trading cars in every 2-3 years because someone once told them they need a lot of upkeep around that time. They want people who instead of paying a $1200 bill for tires will trade the vehicle in on something new. Even better would be if you would perpetually lease, because then they can plan inventory and such.

15 years ago with those car prices I could afford to trade cars every 3-4 years.
I got burned twice by used dealerships when they sold me cars that were in serious accidents where whole right side of the car was replaced.
When I asked if the car was in an accident they told me "not to my knowledge" face. Since then I only buy brand new cars and most of the time they end up being cheaper, discounts + low financing.
My wife's first Highlander base in 2004 was $18k with MSRP $20k.
My 2007 Tundra CrewMax Limited was $27k with MSRP of $35K.
2011 Ford Lariat was $45k with MSRP of $54K.
And most of the time I would get 0.9% or 1.9% financing.

Now with prices of Highlander starting at $35k and trucks on average $60-80k and best case financing at 3.9% I tend to keep cars longer 5-9 years and trade them only if there is an issue that doesn't make sense financially to fix.

 

[BlkGS]

So Ford announced Friday a delay in 12 BILLION worth of EV spending. That's a lot of money.

Can't say I'm surprised, their current offerings are lot queens even with 10k plus Incentives on them. Meanwhile, to get a powerboost f,150 you have to win a duel out back the dealership. Kidding, there's a ton of them on lots too, but that's because a 80k platinum powerboost doesn't have a heater steering wheel or a ton of other features because Ford can't get their supply chain shit together.

Side note on that, I've decided that what the actual issue is, they had a ton of parts on last time buys and whatnot, cancelled those orders, and now don't have obsolescence redesigned replacement parts ready. Their customers are more forgiving than ours, if we made a mistake like that, we would likely lose that contract.

 

[HangOutdoors]

funny stuff

Ford has apparently agreed with the UAW what that rate should be and GM, reportedly, is also close to agreement with the UAW.

Your kidding....... When you are held hostage, that is the farthest th I ng an agreement is

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

funny stuff

Your kidding....... When you are held hostage, that is the farthest th I ng an agreement is

Sorry, but it is exactly what an agreement is. UAW has decided what wage they think there members are entitled to and the automakers have agreed. Doesn’t really matter what you or I think, or our personal thoughts about unions.

Jim

 

[HangOutdoors]

Sorry, but it is exactly what an agreement is. UAW has decided what wage they think there members are entitled to and the automakers have agreed. Doesn’t really matter what you or I think, or our personal thoughts about unions.

Jim

ROFL.... I have no issues with unions. But it was far from agreement....... None the less a rude awakening is on the way.

 

[BlkGS]

The UAW thing... I'm sort of mixed on it. The domestics are dragged down by their retirees and long term work force, newer hires don't really make that much. The UAW really pitched in in 08, and by the UAW I mean the newer members. The long timers fared a lot better.

I don't think the country in general will be successful without a strong middle class, and that's what these manufacturing jobs are, that is our middle class. I also don't really trust a union once it gets to be too large, because then it has organizational mass devoted to itself, rather than being focused solely on the members.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Thought this was an interesting approach to the Truck EV market:



Nissan's Electric Truck Strategy Is Refreshingly Blunt — SlashGear

From the article: “When it comes to electric trucks, "we are not so sure yet that it is the right time, today," Pierre Loing, Global Vice President of Product Planning, said during a roundtable interview at the Japan Mobility Show 2023, where Nissan hosted SlashGear. That's in no small part down to the limitations of range, particularly when towing. After all, the ability to tow loads -- such as boats and trailers -- is a key requirement for pickup owners, yet doing so can roughly halve the typical driving range of an EV's battery.”

Jim

 

[BlkGS]

Thought this was an interesting approach to the Truck EV market:

View attachment 210942

Nissan's Electric Truck Strategy Is Refreshingly Blunt — SlashGear

From the article: “When it comes to electric trucks, "we are not so sure yet that it is the right time, today," Pierre Loing, Global Vice President of Product Planning, said during a roundtable interview at the Japan Mobility Show 2023, where Nissan hosted SlashGear. That's in no small part down to the limitations of range, particularly when towing. After all, the ability to tow loads -- such as boats and trailers -- is a key requirement for pickup owners, yet doing so can roughly halve the typical driving range of an EV's battery.”

Jim

Nissan has a huge opportunity here honestly. Titan is a good product overall that never gets it's due. If Nissan were to to something like make it a PHEV, or even go full on nuts and use an upgraded version of their range boosted EV powertrain, they could really rejuvenate their product. A VQ37 as a generator and a little bit of extra power with a 600hp ish EV powertrain would be a very compelling product that would work for a lot of people.

 

[BlkGS]

Saw this morning Ford thinks the new UAW contract is 850-950 bucks per vehicle of extra cost. That's less than the doc fees at most dealerships, the destination fee, or literally any option.

I don't think it's gonna hurt Ford at all, they can find that kind of money easily, without raising prices, especially considering how much they've already raised prices.

 

[TimW451]

Saw this morning Ford thinks the new UAW contract is 850-950 bucks per vehicle of extra cost. That's less than the doc fees at most dealerships, the destination fee, or literally any option.

I don't think it's gonna hurt Ford at all, they can find that kind of money easily, without raising prices, especially considering how much they've already raised prices.

I agree that they could, but don't be so sure. This is the company that cuts quality to save pennies. (Which ends up costing them dollars.)

 

[TimW451]

Here are one of the studies cited by the lobbyists and the press about PHEVs being ineffective or under beneficial due to owners not plugging them in. I read some of it, and need to go back and verify my initial takeaway, but what I see is that some people use them more than anticipated and some people use them less. And there are literally a few who NEVER plug them in. (WTF?) But to come to the conclusion they are so ineffective that they shouldn't be sold is completely ridiculous.

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf