Here come the hybrids

[BlkGS]

The US auto industry is 3% of the US GDP (US being a where, not a who), only a fool would encourage/allow it to be displaced by foreign manufacturing. I'm sure Newsome would like some serious completion for Tesla, especially since the State has done such a good job pushing them to Texas, but his end game is certainly those Chinese Co's manufacturing in CA, not importing to. (He also needs the EV volume or they can't hit the 2035 mandate.)

BTW, good news from GM: The forthcoming Equinox EV will start at $35k. The bad news is that they won't make that model for a few further years. The first ones will be $50k minimum and the ones they push $65k.

That bodes poorly for Blazer SS pricing, as it will be larger and more powerful. That's probably gonna hit 75k, yuck.

Realistically, who is gonna buy a 50-65k equinox EV over a much cheaper model y? Yeah the interior is cheap and it's ugly, but that's 20 grand in some cases. And it's not like the equinox is pretty or that GM is known for high end and high quality interiors...

 

[Beachbummer]

You say cheap and ugly, I say sparse and with great visibility. It's all relative. Back on point... It's what I was saying earlier. At the current price points, new EV offerings that are not moving are not at the right price to sell

 

[BlkGS]

You say cheap and ugly, I say sparse and with great visibility. It's all relative. Back on point... It's what I was saying earlier. At the current price points, new EV offerings that are not moving are not at the right price to sell

Yup, but only Tesla hits that price point. They're allowed to skirt franchise laws, and were made into segment kings via govt handouts of incentives, carbon credits, etc. Now their up front costs are paid for via carbon credits, and all the other automakers can't hit those price points because they have to pay for development, again.

Unless there's major consolidation in the segment, Tesla will be the only ones able to be successful.

 

[TimW451]

I think the different opinions on the Tesla interior remind me of "Camrys and Corollas are not for people who like cars, but for people who must have a car." Progressive minimalism is good, in that it is about driving out waste and improving the experience, but minimalism for the sake of minimalism, saving money without purpose, isn't good. Even "Apple People" have their limit.

And I agree, and am in that space. How to justify $60k+ for someone else's EV when the Model 3 and Y can be had in the 30's w/ the Fed rebate.

 

[Beachbummer]

What I'm surprised that has not happened yet is consolidation around a battery standard all the fring players could join. Nissan or Hyunday or Tesla could offer the skate/plans for a fee, and you have more volume to the same platform, for less.

Nissan was first with a mass car with the Leaf, but they lost that advantage some time ago.

 

[BlkGS]

What I'm surprised that has not happened yet is consolidation around a battery standard all the fring players could join. Nissan or Hyunday or Tesla could offer the skate/plans for a fee, and you have more volume to the same platform, for less.

Nissan was first with a mass car with the Leaf, but they lost that advantage some time ago.

Modern manufacturers, especially in automotive, are super averse to licensing deals. I think it's far more likely to see jointly developed platforms. The benefit of these jointly developed things is that nobody is beholden to anyone else like a licensing agreement, you can always keep making that platform, and the IP is owned by them all. Today's stock markets value IP, regardless of how useful or not it is.

I think after this round of losses for EVs, the (surviving) automakers will move to joint platforms. There's no reason for Ford and GM and Stella to develop independent large SUV/truck.ev platforms for instance, it's not going to be a large market, and the money to go it alone will never make an ROI. Jointly developed a ross them (and maybe Toyota and Nissan too), they maybe could be profitable.

 

[Ohio]

Here are one of the studies cited by the lobbyists and the press about PHEVs being ineffective or under beneficial due to owners not plugging them in. I read some of it, and need to go back and verify my initial takeaway, but what I see is that some people use them more than anticipated and some people use them less. And there are literally a few who NEVER plug them in. (WTF?) But to come to the conclusion they are so ineffective that they shouldn't be sold is completely ridiculous.

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf

Why not buy a regular hybrid? What is the advantage of a plug in? A buddy of mine bought a Mercedes plug in. When he comes to my house, he plugs it in. When I go to his house I ask him if I can fill my tank with his gas can.

 

[BlkGS]

Why not buy a regular hybrid? What is the advantage of a plug in? A buddy of mine bought a Mercedes plug in. When he comes to my house, he plugs it in. When I go to his house I ask him if I can fill my tank with his gas can.

A PHEV you can drive and use like a BEV with no gas usage. A regular hybrid you have to use the gas engine to recharge the hybrid batteries.

 

[Farny]

Just go gas - less worries.

 

[TimW451]

What I'm surprised that has not happened yet is consolidation around a battery standard all the fring players could join. Nissan or Hyunday or Tesla could offer the skate/plans for a fee, and you have more volume to the same platform, for less.

Nissan was first with a mass car with the Leaf, but they lost that advantage some time ago.

I’m sure once the “best” battery tech is figured out the licensing will begin. Ford’s now cancelled battery plant would’ve licensed Chinese battery tech.

Interestingly I just read a market analyst‘s POV on Tesla, and he thinks they’d be better off as a tier 1 supplier than a manufacturer. I guess it’s a good fall back plan but I see no reason for them to do that, and I don’t think Elon’s ego could handle it.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Dad taught me many years ago to use the right tool for the right job.

Everyone has different wants and needs, the right vehicle for me likely may not be the right vehicle for someone else. If I buy a second car, today, it will be used differently than my first vehicle. If I only had a single vehicle, perhaps where I lived might influence the type of vehicle I buy.

Not much different than when I do lawn work. Use a battery powered push mower, trimmer, and blower for my yard. Also, have a 22 hp John Deere gas mower that cuts the majority of the yard.

Jim

 

[BlkGS]

I’m sure once the “best” battery tech is figured out the licensing will begin. Ford’s now cancelled battery plant would’ve licensed Chinese battery tech.

Interestingly I just read a market analyst‘s POV on Tesla, and he thinks they’d be better off as a tier 1 supplier than a manufacturer. I guess it’s a good fall back plan but I see no reason for them to do that, and I don’t think Elon’s ego could handle it.

Agreed, no way that anyone at tesla's ego could handle it. Regular Tesla employees make lon look humble, they all think they're gods gift to engineering and that somehow using other companies battery tech, other companies electric motors, and throwing it all into a car like has been done for 100 years is proof that they are the smartest people of all time.

The problem with Tesla being a tier 1 supplier is they don't make anything. Their batteries are from Panasonic, the motors from whoever, they have a whole supply chain of tier 1s. So they don't really have anything to offer other than a platform and it's IP. There's not currently any "platform suppliers" and while it's not a bad idea, I don't think the idea of not selling cars and instead selling platforms would get off the ground at Tesla, not with those egos involved.

 

[Beachbummer]

Other than the big chassis in one piece? I think they do make a few things.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Here’s an interesting article about the cost difference between EV and ICE vehicle:

Electric Cars Aren't Selling Better? Well, Yeah — They Cost Too Damn Much — Gear Patrol

There's a pretty clear reason EV sales are slowing down, and it's not political polarization.

apple.news

Jim

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

This was kinda a shocker to me:

Ferrari Sells More Hybrids Than Not — Road & Track

That green 599 hybrid concept car seems like a long, long time ago, doesn't it?

apple.news

Follows up to an older article that talks about the different Ferrari hybrid models:

Ferrari Hybrids Accounted for 43 Percent of Sales in Q2 2023 — Road & Track

Ferrari sold 3392 cars in the second quarter of 2023, with 1458 of those being hybrids.

apple.news

Jim

 

[TimW451]

Here’s an interesting article about the cost difference between EV and ICE vehicle:

Electric Cars Aren't Selling Better? Well, Yeah — They Cost Too Damn Much — Gear Patrol

There's a pretty clear reason EV sales are slowing down, and it's not political polarization.

apple.news

Jim

That is a real good one. Hope others have access to read it.

My feed in Apple News is full of negative news on EVs. I don’t think is just an echo chamber thing.

 

[TimW451]

Here is another good one.

Big-battery EVs have changed what performance means, but the laws of physics still come with potentially dire consequences. — Road & Track

Big-battery EVs have changed what performance means, but the laws of physics still come with potentially dire consequences. That EV Bloat Electric trucks often weigh at least a ton more than their already-heavy conventionally powered equivalents. Ford F-150 Chevrolet Silverado Ram 1500 Cadillac...

apple.news

 

[Ronnie]

I am currently in the market for a new 4 seat electric cart, going shopping to a few dealers very soon

Check out tractor supply if you haven’t already bought a cart. They are offering a racka, pictured for $8k. The next best price I’ve seen for a similar cart is $10k for a Coleman at Lowe’s.


I have an older 48v club cart and love it. I don’t know what the range is but have driven over 8 miles between charges without any loss in performance. Charging is easy, plug the charger into the wall and the cart overnight, done.

 

[zpaul]

Pretty interesting Timelapse of luxury car segment and Tesla market share gain.
Though personally I feel like Tesla it’s an electric Camry. The price is Luxury but quality is average.

 

[Beachbummer]

The Leaf is the electric Camry... The Tesla is now like the electric Hyunday of late 90s+. Hopefully in the same trajectory, starting with some big challenges in build quality while ramping up. I'm really hoping the build quality has caught up with the extra volume built, now that they have built the same model in volume for a couple of years. So far so good on mine, but too early to tell.