EV discussion - hate or love?

[Bluewater272]

I despise one pedal driving and think is should be banned outright. Drivers should be able to correctly module speed via two inputs, brake and throttle. Nothing will ever convince me that one pedal driving is acceptable or safe. If I was the head of the NHTSA I would ban it day 1, give the automakers 24 hours to push and OTA removal out, and crush any cars that weren't immediately fixed while forcing the automakers to reimburse the customers that owned them. There are plenty of arguments about how people aren't able to do what I expect about controlling a vehicle with 2 pedals, and to that I say, those people should not be allowed to drive.

This seems a bit unhinged. I can obviously drive two pedal (and three), but there is absolutely nothing inherently unsafe about one-pedal driving. The only exception would be younger drivers who should probably learn it the old fashioned way first just for future use. Though that future will likely be mostly one-pedal a decade or two from now. There's an argument to be made that it's safer, but it'd be a loosely grounded one.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I think your Rogue is the same generation as ours was, we had a 2017. If so, it isn't the seats, those seats were AWESOME. You're just getting old, lol.

But yeah, I mean, you're comparing a sub 30k economy crossover from what like, a decade ago now against a new "$80k" SUV that probably costs them even more than that all in? Yeah the tech and screens will be nicer, lol.

I despise one pedal driving and think is should be banned outright. Drivers should be able to correctly module speed via two inputs, brake and throttle. Nothing will ever convince me that one pedal driving is acceptable or safe. If I was the head of the NHTSA I would ban it day 1, give the automakers 24 hours to push and OTA removal out, and crush any cars that weren't immediately fixed while forcing the automakers to reimburse the customers that owned them. There are plenty of arguments about how people aren't able to do what I expect about controlling a vehicle with 2 pedals, and to that I say, those people should not be allowed to drive.

NVH on the 2.5L was never a strong point. It's an inexpensive motor for inexpensive vehicles that isn't designed to be luxurious. Beyond that, frankly no 4 cylinders are very good in that respect, it's just a clunky engine layout. When we drove the XC90 I came away totally unimpressed by the hot garbage the powertrain was. Lexus ruined the base trims of the TX with a crap 4 cylinder too. Whatever executive allowed that should be fired out of a cannon and their job.

That said, I think it all depends on your driving style. The idea of sitting somewhere for 30 minutes plus to drag out an 8 plus hour drive a couple of time sounds miserable. On the other hand, we are doing a trip like that in June, 2 kids and dog for a long weekend, and I'm sure every stop we make is going to be long, with toddlers that have to potty and a dog that my wife will feel bad for being cooped up (despite him sleeping like 22 hours a day normally) and my 8 hour trip will take like 12. I suspect most of those stops I could burn 30 minutes at, especially if "charging up" is as simple as plug in and walk away, vs "I should really stay here and keep an eye on the gas pump".

All that said, the real issue is there just isn't anything that would fit for us in an EV. The R1S, meh, I don't need some fake off-road cred or the hassles of a tech startup. Escalade EV is hella crazy expensive. The closest option would be a Kia EV9uride, but I think it would be a bit cramped for 4 plus big dog plus stuff. I guess arguably the Hummer SUV could work, but I can't really see the wife driving one of those day to day.

EDIT: Nevermind, the Hummer is smaller than I thought. More like H3 than H2 inside I think. Also, for $100k you can't even get leather, you get plastic seats. Give me a break.

Your opinion on 1 pedal driving is by far the worst take you’ve had. Have you ever driven one? You take your foot off the gas and the car slows down at a faster rate than coasting, it is inherently safer. That is not disputable. You still have a normal brake pedal as well. I can’t even fathom how you came to that opinion, especially so strongly.

 

[BlkGS]

This seems a bit unhinged. I can obviously drive two pedal (and three), but there is absolutely nothing inherently unsafe about one-pedal driving. The only exception would be younger drivers who should probably learn it the old fashioned way first just for future use. Though that future will likely be mostly one-pedal a decade or two from now. There's an argument to be made that it's safer, but it'd be a loosely grounded one.

You lose a significant amount of control of how the vehicle slows with one pedal driving. You lose a whole pedals worth of modulation for how much you slow down. That's VERY important in adverse weather conditions. Furthermore, people are creatures of habit (and convenience). People will "forget" how to panic stop when they get used to one pedal driving. That could be your kid crossing the street, or your mom, or yourself.

As a society, we have worked to make things "too easy" and stopped putting responsibility on people. I'm all for things that aid in tasks, back cameras and sensors for example. But I am not for things that take the driver out of the responsibility of driving. Our society will gladly pick that and then say "it's not my fault I expected the XYZ to do it for me" when something goes wrong.

 

[BlkGS]

Your opinion on 1 pedal driving is by far the worst take you’ve had. Have you ever driven one? You take your foot off the gas and the car slows down at a faster rate than coasting, it is inherently safer. That is not disputable. You still have a normal brake pedal as well. I can’t even fathom how you came to that opinion, especially so strongly.

I have, and because people are lazy. People will expect to be able to do the stopping they need to do via 1 pedal driving vs using the brakes. I know a few EV owners who brag about not needing to use the brakes because they set their one pedal driving to the most aggressive deceleration and think that's good enough.

I don't mind the declaration aspect of OPD, it's analogous to engine braking to my mind. The problem I have with it is the framing and context of it. Just like Tesla using "autopilot" or "full self driving" to describe their driver aids, it gives people the wrong impression about how it should be used.

You tell someone something is "full self driving", they're gonna try to take a nap in the back while the car drives. You tell someone that it's "one pedal driving", they will exclusively use one pedal. The feature isn't the problem, it's the naming and how people will treat it.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I have, and because people are lazy. People will expect to be able to do the stopping they need to do via 1 pedal driving vs using the brakes. I know a few EV owners who brag about not needing to use the brakes because they set their one pedal driving to the most aggressive deceleration and think that's good enough.

I don't mind the declaration aspect of OPD, it's analogous to engine braking to my mind. The problem I have with it is the framing and context of it. Just like Tesla using "autopilot" or "full self driving" to describe their driver aids, it gives people the wrong impression about how it should be used.

You tell someone something is "full self driving", they're gonna try to take a nap in the back while the car drives. You tell someone that it's "one pedal driving", they will exclusively use one pedal. The feature isn't the problem, it's the naming and how people will treat it.

I’m starting to see your reasoning, but you’re making some serious assumptions about the public and drivers in general. One-pedal drivers still use the brake pedal, people don’t just forget how to drive. I found going to one-pedal made me drive more cautious and slower because I utilized the feature more than brake pedal so I was limited to the cars function and correctly feathering the gas. Taking your foot off the gas completely on a one-pedal feature car results in braking harder than most people do normally.

Your basis of your argument could be drilled down to almost any safety feature of cars. It’s like saying seat belts are bad because it enables people to drive more recklessly.

 

[BlkGS]

I’m starting to see your reasoning, but you’re making some serious assumptions about the public and drivers in general. One-pedal drivers still use the brake pedal, people don’t just forget how to drive. I found going to one-pedal made me drive more cautious and slower because I utilized the feature more than brake pedal so I was limited to the cars function and correctly feathering the gas. Taking your foot off the gas completely on a one-pedal feature car results in braking harder than most people do normally.

Your basis of your argument could be drilled down to almost any safety feature of cars. It’s like saying seat belts are bad because it enables people to drive more recklessly.

You'rr more optimistic about people than I am. I see it all the time, we get a new system at work and people forget where they used to get the underlying data from. People get radar cruise and forget that they have to not crash cars. Even going from the BMW that does lane centering really well to the Corvettes, it's hard to break yourself of letting the car keep you going straight.

It's not going to be everyone that's the problem. But it's going to be a LOT of drivers. And I'll freely admit, the drivers are the root cause of the problem. But you can't legislate people to care about driving and take it seriously. You can't regulate your way into good drivers. But you can regulate out things that enable people to to skimp on paying attention to driving. That's why I think physical controls for basic functions should also be mandated.

All that said, perhaps my judgment is based off a poor implementation of it. In the Lightning I drove, the off pedal deceleration was stronger than just coasting and engine braking, but it was notike effective braking. I'd rather it at a 10-20% of the brake application, basically just kinda riding it. It would likely stop you, but you'd be braking so far away and stopping so slowly people would absolutely cut you off multiple times before you reached the stoplight.

 

[2kwik4u]

You sound hurt, or mad, or maybe both. I'm not sure I can help you on that front. I was just espousing some insights I gained while road tripping nearly back to back between two different vehicles. Whatever I did to rile your angst, man, I'm sorry.

Here are my thoughts. I'm not trying to convince you to like it, I'm really trying to be pretty objective here.

I think your Rogue is the same generation as ours was, we had a 2017. If so, it isn't the seats, those seats were AWESOME. You're just getting old, lol.

'18, same generation. Keep in mind I'm 6'2" tall and 240lbs. I'm not exactly a small guy, and that's not exactly a big vehicle. We did a 5hr stint straight from Louisville to Cleveland yesterday evening. One full tank in the Rogue. Had "hot spots" from sitting that long, never again. That was dumb.

But yeah, I mean, you're comparing a sub 30k economy crossover from what like, a decade ago now against a new "$80k" SUV that probably costs them even more than that all in? Yeah the tech and screens will be nicer, lol.

Tried to keep the class and overall quality out of it, and stick to the dynamics of the trip.

I despise one pedal driving and think is should be banned outright. Drivers should be able to correctly module speed via two inputs, brake and throttle. Nothing will ever convince me that one pedal driving is acceptable or safe. If I was the head of the NHTSA I would ban it day 1, give the automakers 24 hours to push and OTA removal out, and crush any cars that weren't immediately fixed while forcing the automakers to reimburse the customers that owned them. There are plenty of arguments about how people aren't able to do what I expect about controlling a vehicle with 2 pedals, and to that I say, those people should not be allowed to drive.

Now, here's a hot take I didn't expect. Honestly, and frankly, this screams "I don't know what I'm talking about". The naivety of this response is really hard to overcome. I'm not going to debate this, because, well, others are doing it better than I can already, but I want to respond at some level.

• With one pedal "engaged", it is still possible to modulate speed with two pedals. The brakes are still there, they work great, and can be relied on to overpower the motors, just like any other vehicle. There is ZERO reduction in capability here.
• I fail to see how having a secondary system that scrubs speed is a bad thing. Driver "freaks out" and releases all controls, the machine stops. Arguably faster and in more control than without regen braking.
• If you don't like the settings, I'm not sure there is an EV out there that won't allow you to disable or reduce the effects for your personal preference.
• Rivian (others might as well) has a setting for "consistent braking". This setting allows the vehicle to apply the brakes, as needed, to generate consistent deceleration regardless of road conditions, battery conditions, and a myriad of other factors. It makes the truck feel the same on a hot summer afternoon as it does in the snow in the middle of winter. The brake pedal becomes a "backup" for coming in too hot to a corner/turn, not the primary actuator.
• If one pedal driving is so dangerous, why don't more people crash vehicles with hydrostatic transmissions. It's literally the same driving dynamics in terms of speed control.
• Just because you despise something, doesn't make it dangerous, wrong, or otherwise a bad idea. Your hot take is a really good example of why we shouldn't let people that aren't, at least at a reasonable level, experienced with tech, make laws about said tech.

NVH on the 2.5L was never a strong point. It's an inexpensive motor for inexpensive vehicles that isn't designed to be luxurious. Beyond that, frankly no 4 cylinders are very good in that respect, it's just a clunky engine layout. When we drove the XC90 I came away totally unimpressed by the hot garbage the powertrain was. Lexus ruined the base trims of the TX with a crap 4 cylinder too. Whatever executive allowed that should be fired out of a cannon and their job.

Yea, the 2.5 isn't a shinning example of a smooth engine. Still, the premise remains, there is such a large chasm of difference between even the smoothest of ICE and the roughest of EV's.

That said, I think it all depends on your driving style. The idea of sitting somewhere for 30 minutes plus to drag out an 8 plus hour drive a couple of time sounds miserable. On the other hand, we are doing a trip like that in June, 2 kids and dog for a long weekend, and I'm sure every stop we make is going to be long, with toddlers that have to potty and a dog that my wife will feel bad for being cooped up (despite him sleeping like 22 hours a day normally) and my 8 hour trip will take like 12. I suspect most of those stops I could burn 30 minutes at, especially if "charging up" is as simple as plug in and walk away, vs "I should really stay here and keep an eye on the gas pump".

Couple things here. If you're wife thinks the dog has been cooped up, imagine how she feels about herself? More breaks is better for your mental health, you can let go of the "but we have to make good time" mentality and live a happier life. I promise it's out there, and you'll enjoy it. Come join us on the light side

Charging up is as simple as "plug it in and walk away". Tesla, RAN, and EA all offer "plug and charge" connectivity. Vehicle talks to the network and sort out billing on it's own. I usually hang out to make sure that the charger ramps to the highest speeds then walk away. Takes less than a minute. I can check status from the phone if I'm curious how it's doing, or walk back to the truck to check status. Not to mention the arguably better security in payment. Haven't seen a card skimmer on an EV charger yet, but have seen plenty on gas pumps.

I'll be impressed with a 30min stop with the toddler, a dog, and a wife. I struggled to beat 20min with a 7yr old, 13yr old, a wife and a dog. The big change in mentality really made a difference in my overall experience on road trips.

All that said, the real issue is there just isn't anything that would fit for us in an EV. The R1S, meh, I don't need some fake off-road cred or the hassles of a tech startup. Escalade EV is hella crazy expensive. The closest option would be a Kia EV9uride, but I think it would be a bit cramped for 4 plus big dog plus stuff. I guess arguably the Hummer SUV could work, but I can't really see the wife driving one of those day to day.

EDIT: Nevermind, the Hummer is smaller than I thought. More like H3 than H2 inside I think. Also, for $100k you can't even get leather, you get plastic seats. Give me a break.

I'm gonna take offense at "fake off-road cred" here. In a somewhat big way. This, again, screams "I don't know what I'm talking about". I went and off-roaded with a group of trucks last month and watch Rivians walk over obstacles that took Jeep Wrangler Rubicons 2-3 tries. Those are some of the most highly regarded off road machines you can buy, and stock for stock the Rivians more than kept up. For all the tech shit I've dealt with on this truck (and agree they're a startup with issues), the off-road chops are seriously second to none.

Regarding "There isn't that would fit us", sure, that's a fine reason to not get an EV. Everyone wants a little something different, and has a different take on things. I'm gonna push back though and ask what "We won't fit" and "plastic seats for $100k" has to do with the driveline. You haven't bought an EV because they don't make one you like, not because it's an EV. Just so we're clear.

 

[Bluewater272]

You lose a significant amount of control of how the vehicle slows with one pedal driving. You lose a whole pedals worth of modulation for how much you slow down. That's VERY important in adverse weather conditions. Furthermore, people are creatures of habit (and convenience). People will "forget" how to panic stop when they get used to one pedal driving. That could be your kid crossing the street, or your mom, or yourself.

As a society, we have worked to make things "too easy" and stopped putting responsibility on people. I'm all for things that aid in tasks, back cameras and sensors for example. But I am not for things that take the driver out of the responsibility of driving. Our society will gladly pick that and then say "it's not my fault I expected the XYZ to do it for me" when something goes wrong.

Respectfully, this is all nonsense. Control in adverse weather is even better with one pedal. Forgetting how to panic stop is another creation of yours. If you think regen braking is anything like engine braking, then you really shouldn't have an opinion on the matter.

 

[BlkGS]

You sound hurt, or mad, or maybe both. I'm not sure I can help you on that front. I was just espousing some insights I gained while road tripping nearly back to back between two different vehicles. Whatever I did to rile your angst, man, I'm sorry.

Here are my thoughts. I'm not trying to convince you to like it, I'm really trying to be pretty objective here.

'18, same generation. Keep in mind I'm 6'2" tall and 240lbs. I'm not exactly a small guy, and that's not exactly a big vehicle. We did a 5hr stint straight from Louisville to Cleveland yesterday evening. One full tank in the Rogue. Had "hot spots" from sitting that long, never again. That was dumb.

Tried to keep the class and overall quality out of it, and stick to the dynamics of the trip.

Now, here's a hot take I didn't expect. Honestly, and frankly, this screams "I don't know what I'm talking about". The naivety of this response is really hard to overcome. I'm not going to debate this, because, well, others are doing it better than I can already, but I want to respond at some level.

• With one pedal "engaged", it is still possible to modulate speed with two pedals. The brakes are still there, they work great, and can be relied on to overpower the motors, just like any other vehicle. There is ZERO reduction in capability here.
• I fail to see how having a secondary system that scrubs speed is a bad thing. Driver "freaks out" and releases all controls, the machine stops. Arguably faster and in more control than without regen braking.
• If you don't like the settings, I'm not sure there is an EV out there that won't allow you to disable or reduce the effects for your personal preference.
• Rivian (others might as well) has a setting for "consistent braking". This setting allows the vehicle to apply the brakes, as needed, to generate consistent deceleration regardless of road conditions, battery conditions, and a myriad of other factors. It makes the truck feel the same on a hot summer afternoon as it does in the snow in the middle of winter. The brake pedal becomes a "backup" for coming in too hot to a corner/turn, not the primary actuator.
• If one pedal driving is so dangerous, why don't more people crash vehicles with hydrostatic transmissions. It's literally the same driving dynamics in terms of speed control.
• Just because you despise something, doesn't make it dangerous, wrong, or otherwise a bad idea. Your hot take is a really good example of why we shouldn't let people that aren't, at least at a reasonable level, experienced with tech, make laws about said tech.

Yea, the 2.5 isn't a shinning example of a smooth engine. Still, the premise remains, there is such a large chasm of difference between even the smoothest of ICE and the roughest of EV's.

Couple things here. If you're wife thinks the dog has been cooped up, imagine how she feels about herself? More breaks is better for your mental health, you can let go of the "but we have to make good time" mentality and live a happier life. I promise it's out there, and you'll enjoy it. Come join us on the light side

Charging up is as simple as "plug it in and walk away". Tesla, RAN, and EA all offer "plug and charge" connectivity. Vehicle talks to the network and sort out billing on it's own. I usually hang out to make sure that the charger ramps to the highest speeds then walk away. Takes less than a minute. I can check status from the phone if I'm curious how it's doing, or walk back to the truck to check status. Not to mention the arguably better security in payment. Haven't seen a card skimmer on an EV charger yet, but have seen plenty on gas pumps.

I'll be impressed with a 30min stop with the toddler, a dog, and a wife. I struggled to beat 20min with a 7yr old, 13yr old, a wife and a dog. The big change in mentality really made a difference in my overall experience on road trips.


I'm gonna take offense at "fake off-road cred" here. In a somewhat big way. This, again, screams "I don't know what I'm talking about". I went and off-roaded with a group of trucks last month and watch Rivians walk over obstacles that took Jeep Wrangler Rubicons 2-3 tries. Those are some of the most highly regarded off road machines you can buy, and stock for stock the Rivians more than kept up. For all the tech shit I've dealt with on this truck (and agree they're a startup with issues), the off-road chops are seriously second to none.

Regarding "There isn't that would fit us", sure, that's a fine reason to not get an EV. Everyone wants a little something different, and has a different take on things. I'm gonna push back though and ask what "We won't fit" and "plastic seats for $100k" has to do with the driveline. You haven't bought an EV because they don't make one you like, not because it's an EV. Just so we're clear.

Overall I don't disagree about the "they don't make an EV we like" stuff. I'm not Inherently anti EV, and as we've grown our family, stops have gotten longer so EV charging times would be less of an issue. When it was just us, we were fast. I was filling the car while she peed and got snacks, I parked near some grass for her to take the dog to pee while I went and peed, boom were in and out in like 10 minutes tops. I fully expect us to be 30 minutes per stop on our trips, with possibly unplanned stops vs stops every 400ish miles.

My wife is a trooper, but she gets so worried about dogs lol. She could ride in the car all day and be perfectly happy, especially in the rogue (tbh, the seats in her rogue were better than in our Expedition - the rogue had those like NASA developed Zero Gravity seats).

Fake off-road stuff may be real off-road stuff, but it's be fake for me because I wouldn't be offroading it. The point was more than Rivian is selling a Land Rover type vehicle when what I need is a pavement princess. It's like a GT3 RS Porsche to me, it may be a crazy capable track car, but it'd be all fake for me because at most I'd autocross it, but I sure as hell wouldn't be takingy $250k track weapon tona track day where it could get totalled by some bozo in a $5000 beater.

I could make an EV work. If the Lightning had the current f150 interior with the horizontal screen, it'd probably be about perfect for me. I'd want to lower it and get less ugly wheels, but I could easily make it work. But reality is, they simply don't make any EVs that interest me and work for me outside of the e from GT (way too expensive) and the Taycan (also way too expensive). Blazer EV SS has a lot going for it, but shoots itself in the foot trying to be too much like the other EVs with gimmicks like a button to get full power.

I'm overall agnostic between an EV and a good OCE powertrain for a daily now. The X5 being so incredibly quiet exhaust wise is to blame. Before the X5 I needed that V8 rumble. At this point I could probably be ok without it (gross I might be getting old too). I wish the industry would try to stop making EVs for EV people that are just like the EVs they already buy and make EVs for regular people that are more like the regular cars they already buy.

 

[BlkGS]

Respectfully, this is all nonsense. Control in adverse weather is even better with one pedal. Forgetting how to panic stop is another creation of yours. If you think regen braking is anything like engine braking, then you really shouldn't have an opinion on the matter.

It slows you down at a "not as fast as the brakes" level. They may be technologically different, but they're functionally equivalent.

 

[Bluewater272]

It slows you down at a "not as fast as the brakes" level. They may be technologically different, but they're functionally equivalent.

You didn't actually say anything there, lol.

Fun fact, it still has a brake pedal.

 

[BlkGS]

You didn't actually say anything there, lol.

Fun fact, it still has a brake pedal.

Our Expedition still has a keyhole too, that doesn't mean my wife would know what to do if her smart key stopped working.

 

[2kwik4u]

You didn't actually say anything there, lol.

Fun fact, it still has a brake pedal.

I'm with @BlkGS on this one. Engine braking and Regen braking is the same thing. It's literally the prime mover of the machine applying a torque, through the drivetrain, in the opposite direction of travel. Exactly the same thing from a mechanical forces standpoint.

From a "how it acts" standpoint, both systems continue to maintain very similar driving dynamics. An EV with high regen being hustled through a canyon road acts and feels like an ICE being driven in second gear at high revs through that same canyon road. Again, quite literally the same thing.

To be clear, you can still wildly "overcook" a corner in an EV. Coming in too hot with an EV requires a step over to the brake pedal to get the speed scrubbed fast enough to make the corner. I did this on a semi regular basis while I was learning the feel for the truck in the first few months I owned it. Now I have a better understanding of the vehicle braking dyanmics and how the brake and regen work togethor, so I haven't "overcooked" a corner/turn on accident in a few months. Done it a couple of times on purpose though, brakes still work and they're still easy to modulate and reliable. I used to rave about the brakes on the Q7, they were amazing 6piston brembo units with 16in rotors; absolutely fantastic brakes. The Rivian does it better, FAR better, than the Q7; because it has two systems to take the braking load. This is despite it weighing a full TON more on the scale.


NOW.....the idea that someone will "forgot how to emergency brake", or that you somehow loose modulation over braking force......is about the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time. The actual implementation varies between manufacturers, but it's VERY tractable and VERY quickly adapted to. Toss my wife in the Rivian and it takes about a block and a half for her to "recalibrate" her driving style to the one pedal paradigm. It took me about that same block and a half to readjust to driving the Rogue this weekend. Panic stops are augmented by the regen, and the brakes still exist if you come in hotter than you anticipated.

Having used both, in multiple different scenarios, I'll take the EV driveline on this front every day and twice on Sunday. The ADDITIONAL control offered from the heavy regen in the EV, as compared to an ICE, is the more preferred method.

Finally.....I do think some additional training will be required for my kids that might/might not ever experience an ICE. Arguably, this is with all vehicles though. Look at German licensing laws versus US, and you can see the direct link between training, graduated licensing, and the resulting safety that comes from it. So to say it applies to only EV's with regen is extremely short sighted. Panic stops are generally never practiced. Evasive maneuvers are never practiced. High speed lane changes are never practiced. This is regardless of driveline.........We need better driver training; period.

 

[Bluewater272]

I'm with @BlkGS on this one. Engine braking and Regen braking is the same thing. It's literally the prime mover of the machine applying a torque, through the drivetrain, in the opposite direction of travel. Exactly the same thing from a mechanical forces standpoint.

From a "how it acts" standpoint, both systems continue to maintain very similar driving dynamics. An EV with high regen being hustled through a canyon road acts and feels like an ICE being driven in second gear at high revs through that same canyon road. Again, quite literally the same thing.

It's the same principle but its far from the same thing. Consider the control you have over deceleration from highway speed via regenerative braking versus engine braking over six gears - its preposterous to say that it's the same thing, even more that it somehow makes you less safe. Same for inclement weather (since you actually get it too) - control in the snow is so much better.

As you said:

The ADDITIONAL control offered from the heavy regen in the EV, as compared to an ICE, is the more preferred method.

 

[2kwik4u]

It's the same principle but its far from the same thing. Consider the control you have over deceleration from highway speed via regenerative braking versus engine braking over six gears - its preposterous to say that it's the same thing, even more that it somehow makes you less safe. Same for inclement weather (since you actually get it too) - control in the snow is so much better.

As you said:

Honestly, I don't see how it's not the same thing. I'm really struggling to see the difference between regen and engine braking beyond the dynamics of how it's applied.

Magnitude and consistency are different, I'll give you that. EV is a consistent, even, strong, pull down. ICE is a ramped and shifted pull down that peaks early and tapers off as engine revs decrease. High compression/High Horsepower ICE with a DCT transmission will have a closer pull down experience to an EV than a lower horsepower CVT equipped vehicle. That is all to say that EV's will have a VERY linear deceleration, while ICEV's will have a very non-linear deceleration.

I don't think there's enough variation in concept to call them different, you disagree and that's OK. They're close enough to be considered the same for me. Just a difference of opinions. Similar to the "fake" off road cred discussed earlier. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's fake.

Control (and subsequent safety) in ALL situations is better with the electric setup. EV driveline has so much additional control I struggle to see how @BlkGS came to his conclusion that sparked all this debate.

 

[BlkGS]

Following back up on something I complained about earlier, and found the answer.

The stupid WOW mode on the Blazer SS. It exists because it negatively impacts battery health. GM made it a switch because "consistent use of WOW mode will negatively impact battery health and range'. So that's why it's not on my default all the time. I suspect that GM is tracking how many times you use it and will slap you down on a battery warranty if you use it more than the unspecified amount of time they think is acceptable.

So that's why. Kinda a bummer, and in that gray area of "misleading but not false advertisement" for them to be touting it at 650hp but really it's 500hp if you don't want to mess up the battery.

 

[BlkGS]

I don't think there's enough variation in concept to call them different, you disagree and that's OK. They're close enough to be considered the same for me. Just a difference of opinions. Similar to the "fake" off road cred discussed earlier. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's fake.

Control (and subsequent safety) in ALL situations is better with the electric setup. EV driveline has so much additional control I struggle to see how @BlkGS came to his conclusion that sparked all this debate.

Agreed on the fake thing, and the analysis of why they're the same-ish.

In my limited time on EV forums, the number of people who claim they only use OPD and never use the brakes anymore is insane. One guy said he had to have his brakes replaced because he didn't use them enough (which sounded weird to me but I dunno).

You guys just might be smarter than the average person. And/or have more faith in the average person's driving skills. I can just see someone who's totally used to OPD not paying attention while they drive, looking up from their phone and seeing a kid in the road, panicking and taking their foot off the throttle and just hoping for the best. Think of all the stories of stupid people spilling hot coffee, eating tide pods, etc and tell me it isn't plausible.

The only real saving grace is most of these cars will likely have automatic braking for situations like this where the car will brake for them.

 

[2kwik4u]

Agreed on the fake thing, and the analysis of why they're the same-ish.

In my limited time on EV forums, the number of people who claim they only use OPD and never use the brakes anymore is insane. One guy said he had to have his brakes replaced because he didn't use them enough (which sounded weird to me but I dunno).

You guys just might be smarter than the average person. And/or have more faith in the average person's driving skills. I can just see someone who's totally used to OPD not paying attention while they drive, looking up from their phone and seeing a kid in the road, panicking and taking their foot off the throttle and just hoping for the best. Think of all the stories of stupid people spilling hot coffee, eating tide pods, etc and tell me it isn't plausible.

The only real saving grace is most of these cars will likely have automatic braking for situations like this where the car will brake for them.

You clearly haven't driven with OPD. It's beyond blatantly obvious from those of us that have.

 

[BigN8]

How come when I read this all I hear in my head is Naughty by Nature “You down with OPD, yeah you know me”!

I keep trying to ignore this thread but I just can’t. Gotta see how one EV nerd is gonna insult the other EV nerd.

 

[BlkGS]

You clearly haven't driven with OPD. It's beyond blatantly obvious from those of us that have.

Only briefly on a test drive. Again to be fair, I'm sure it's implemented differently in each make. I'm more commenting on the people who claim to only use OPD. They may be full of it, or maybe they're just super annoying and/or dangerous drivers. I dunno.