• Welcome to Jetboaters.net!

    We are delighted you have found your way to the best Jet Boaters Forum on the internet! Please consider Signing Up so that you can enjoy all the features and offers on the forum. We have members with boats from all the major manufacturers including Yamaha, Seadoo, Scarab and Chaparral. We don't email you SPAM, and the site is totally non-commercial. So what's to lose? IT IS FREE!

    Membership allows you to ask questions (no matter how mundane), meet up with other jet boaters, see full images (not just thumbnails), browse the member map and qualifies you for members only discounts offered by vendors who run specials for our members only! (It also gets rid of this banner!)

    free hit counter

240 Months??!!

robert843

Jetboaters Admiral
Messages
5,033
Reaction score
5,829
Points
462
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2017
Boat Model
AR
Boat Length
24
@robert843 , I'm sorry about your friend dying.

I can't argue with living like you were dying but I still fear outliving my money. I was a grocery store bagger in high school and vividly remember an older retired couple coming in every month right around social security check time to buy a lot cat food for their consumption not for cats. On the opposite end I was a bank teller in college and had homeless customers making $10 withdrawals from savings accounts with over $100k balances. That said, I honestly have just as much fun on my current boat which is my fourth as I did in my first jet boat a 15 footer.

When it comes down to it for me, it's the people I'm with that make boating fun that make the memories I cherish and all the trouble and expense worth it not how big, loaded or expensive the boat is so I don't have a reason to break the bank or put a cloud of debt over myself for 20 years. It helps for me to keep this in mind whenever I see another boat I'd like to have. Another member here said it best, "if you are floating you are boating".

My next financial challenge will be getting my son through college without either of us going into much debt. I paid my $100k (over $150k after deferrals, forebearance and unpaid interest capitalization) student loan off years ago, about 23 years early but that is another story.
@Ronnie I completely agree with your statement. What I figure though is to each there own you and I have a very similar mind set. Even on college when my daughter was 1 I started putting $400 a month into a ESP that has an immediate 15% discount if I'm lucky enough for that stock to even just stay at today's price there will be over $100,000 in that account by the time she is ready for college. Don't get me wrong at the way schooling costs are increasing in 11 years when that happens that may only be a year or two's worth of school lol. I'm hoping she gets some scholarships then that will be my new boat fund ;)
 

swatski

Jetboaters Fleet Admiral 1*
Messages
12,806
Reaction score
18,567
Points
822
Location
North Caldwell, NJ
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2016
Boat Model
AR
Boat Length
24
I'm going to make an argument for the other side of the fence, i.e., that financing for 15+ years on an item like this makes sense. At least for some people. And provided the interest rate is low enough and the buyer will hold on to the boat for sufficient time.

Like most cars, boats are depreciating assets. Regardless of age, they generally do not increase in value, and almost always significantly decrease in value. That being said - while I am not a proponent of debt - there is an argument to be made that paying cash for a boat or paying it off early merely accelerate the monetary loss on the boat, and forego compound returns that could have been earned with that same money. For example:

Setting - Bob has $50,000 of "extra cash" in the bank and wants to buy a boat. Consider the following three scenarios.

Example 1: Bob buys a $50,000 boat, puts 0% down, and finances it for 15 years at 2.99% interest. His payment is ~$345 a month, at the outset of which ~$220 goes to principal, and $124 goes to interest. The total interest paid over the life of the loan is ~$12,000. He takes the $50,000 he has in the bank and invests it in mutual funds and earns a yearly return of 6% on his investment over that same 15 years (compounding yearly). Bob adds no additional funds to that $50,000 investment. At the end of that term, Bob's 50,0000 investment is now worth $119,927. Subtracting the cost of the boat ($50,000) and the interest payments on the 15 year loan ($12000), it can be seen that Bob is just under $70,000 AHEAD after that 15 year term. And that assumes Bob's boat is worth $0 at the end of the 15 year term.

Example 2: Bob buys the same $50,000 boat for cash. At the end of the 15 years, Bob has not only lost the $50,000 he paid for his boat (again assuming the boat is worth nothing at the end of the 15 years), he has ALSO lost the $70,000 in returns he would have seen had he made the $50,000 investment and financed the boat at 2.99% over the 15 years.

Example 3 - Same as example 2, but instead of investing the whole $50,000 bob invests $8,000 at 6% return compounding annually, and again adds no additional cash to the investment after it is made. At the end of the 15 year term that $8,000 investment is worth $just over $19,000. In this case, Bob's investment completely offsets the interest on the loan payment, he retains $42,000 at the time of purchase to use how he pleases, AND he retains his invested principal ($8,000). While he loses the $50k in boat payments, he has effectively paid no interest over the life of the loan on the boat. The biggest loss, however, is that in this example Bob has also foregone the $70,000 in returns that he would have seen had he invested the whole $50,000

Now tell me - in which of the above scenarios is Bob smarter?

IMO - the answer entirely depends on Bob's finances. If Bob is financially secure enough to invest the 50k, leave it alone for the 15 year term, and meet all of his other financial obligations, he would be far better served by example 1 than examples 2 or 3. Indeed in that scenario, the only time it makes sense for Bob to pay for the boat outright (or pay it off early) is when the interest rate on the boat exceeds the rate of return on the investment.

FWIW - the above is also true with regard to other types of loans, and particularly mortgages and home equity lines of credit. Indeed the interest on Mortgages and HELOCs is tax deductible, meaning that the borrower will obtain a tax credit that is typically about 33% of the amount of yearly interest paid. In other words, if the APR on a mortgage is 5%, after the federal tax credit the effective interest rate is really only ~ 3.4%. Which in most cases would mean that it would be smarter to invest extra money in the stock market than to use it to pay off a mortgage early.

Just food for thought. There is a good reason that compounding returns have been said to be one of the most powerful forces in the world.

And for the record - I hate debt as much as most financial advisors. BUT - in the right circumstances debt can be used as leverage to obtain greater returns. Most wealthy people understand that, and have used that principal to great advantage.
Wow - I just read this thread, interesting opinions. Here is what I think when I hear Example 1 - 6% stipulation: Motley Fool Money, cir. 1999.

As one guy put it once:
Irrational exuberance
Alan Greenspan, then-Federal Reserve Board chairman


--
 

sho'nuff

Jet Boat Lover
Messages
18
Reaction score
6
Points
72
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2012
Boat Model
Other
Boat Length
PWC
Here is a good number example. $10,000 gains 10% this month now $11,000 loses 10% next month now $9900 gains 10% the next now $10,890 now loses 9% the next month now $9909.90. This example would show a return rate of +1% by Wall street standards but some how you lost money and this doesn't include fees charged to have that fund managed. Another great way anyone can see this is go look at your 401k and it will show you the annual return rate and your cost basis I bet you will be floored when you see it. Some of you will probably be mad to see you have a positive return rate with little to no excess money beyond your contributions.
Man that is a head scratcher. I always calculate ROI based on the principal amount invested and the value of the investment at time of inspection.

My point is that for some people - financing a boat or any other item for a long time can make perfect financial sense. Note that in all of my examples - Bob had $50k of extra cash laying around - this is not cash that is going to affect his retirement, or his financial stability in any way. Its straight up fun money. Which is why he is thinking about using it to buy a boat (no one buys a boat because its a good financial decision). If we were talking about money that MATTERS to Bob, I would say that Bob shouldn't be buying a boat, and certainly shouldn't buying a 50,000 boat.

I'm just trying to illustrate that in some instances, its possible to use debt as leverage and, provided you are careful, come out ahead. But you are right of course. It is possible to lose money in the stock market. So my proposal is not without risk.

FWIW - I am personally in Bob's situation, and am trying to decide whether to buy new or used. All my financial ducks are in a row. I could buy a new boat for cash, or I could finance. In either case I'm not affecting my retirement, my kids education, etc. If I finance, I can pay the debt off at any time with existing assets. I already max out all tax advantaged accounts, put 6k/year/kid away in a 529, etc. So for me, the question is do I roll the dice in the market and finance the boat, or do I pay it off entirely up front. With the market being down so much, I'm inclined to buy more funds.

PS: Very sorry to hear about your friend dying. That is a terrible thing to have happen to one so young.
 
Last edited:

sho'nuff

Jet Boat Lover
Messages
18
Reaction score
6
Points
72
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2012
Boat Model
Other
Boat Length
PWC
Wow - I just read this thread, interesting opinions. Here is what I think when I hear Example 1 - 6% stipulation: Motley Fool Money, cir. 1999.
As one guy put it once:
Irrational exuberance
Alan Greenspan, then-Federal Reserve Board chairman
--
This is what I am thinking of:

 

swatski

Jetboaters Fleet Admiral 1*
Messages
12,806
Reaction score
18,567
Points
822
Location
North Caldwell, NJ
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2016
Boat Model
AR
Boat Length
24

BoaterGuy

Jetboaters Captain
Messages
734
Reaction score
455
Points
227
Boat Make
Boatless
Year
NA
Boat Model
Other
Boat Length
NA
I like these graphs:

Dow inflation adjusted (Dont forget that the DOW stocks (30) are removed and added to keep the index up). Also the DOW is not a weighted index, so one stock and can unduly influence the index.

The S&P is a better as it is market cap weighted and represents a broader view of the market.

This is the DOW adjusted for inflation (notice if you invested in 1945 and cashed out in 1980 you would have broken even):

dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart-2016-02-12-macrotrends.png

This is how many ounces of Gold it takes to buy the DOW. Looks like the DOW is expensive to gold right now.

dow-to-gold-ratio-100-year-historical-chart-2016-02-12-macrotrends.png

And finally debt compared to market. Looks like there is high correlation.

a-debt-fueled-stock-market-2016-02-12-macrotrends.png
 

robert843

Jetboaters Admiral
Messages
5,033
Reaction score
5,829
Points
462
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2017
Boat Model
AR
Boat Length
24
@RobA is correct that most people don't count for the average inflation rate of 2.4% so even if your getting a true roi of 2.6% which is the average for someone who has a blend of stocks and funds you are really only gaining 0.2%. For those only in funds it is much worse much worse then 10 year average from 2004-2013 was 0.6% roi which would equate to a -1.8% return with inflation calculated in.


The average investor exclusively investing in just fixed-income funds has had an even worse experience. The annualized return is 0.6% over 10 years, 0.7% over 20 years, and 0.7% over 30 years.

Just who is the “average investor?” The QAIB states the average investor refers to “the universe of all mutual fund investors whose actions and financial results are restated to represent a single investor.” This universe would include small and large investors as well as professionally advised and self-advised investors.

It is plain to see in the preceding chart that the average mutual fund investor has seriously underperformed against a variety of asset classes and has barely exceeded the rate of inflation. The average fixed-income investor has lost to inflation, losing valuable purchasing power.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2014/04/24/why-the-average-investors-investment-return-is-so-low/#4c079f5763a4


stkpic11.png
 

Scuba_ref

Jetboaters Admiral
Messages
1,563
Reaction score
2,482
Points
297
Location
Wenatchee, WA
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2018
Boat Model
AR
Boat Length
24
You guys are depressing me. I think I need to take all my money out of the market and invest it in a bigger, newer boat. Then at least my FROI (Fun Return on Investment) will be high!
 

MattFX4

Jetboaters Captain
Messages
1,797
Reaction score
1,619
Points
227
Location
Marietta, GA
Boat Make
Other
Year
2018
Boat Model
Other
Boat Length
24
You guys are depressing me. I think I need to take all my money out of the market and invest it in a bigger, newer boat. Then at least my FROI (Fun Return on Investment) will be high!
lol I know right? Buy the boat, enjoy life. At the rate we are going this country will be a socialist nation by the time we are old and grey, and we wont have to worry about it right?
 

Duane652000

Jet Boat Lover
Messages
28
Reaction score
39
Points
82
Location
Dallas/Fort Worth
Boat Make
Chaparral
Year
1995
Boat Model
SS
Boat Length
21
Lol, who are we kidding? We will all work till we die! Might as well enjoy life.
 

bgruhn76

Jet Boat Lover
Messages
37
Reaction score
19
Points
77
Boat Make
Boatless
Year
NA
Boat Model
Other
Boat Length
Other
Live within your means...most of the time. However, don't trade memories for numbers/paper. I have lost many people in my life. Friends & family alike. Some healthy, some not. Some were freak accidents. We cannot live in fear or the terrorist win. lol I agree with nearly every post here...to a point. You just have to make sure you feel ok about writing that check (EFT online) every month, and make sure your other priorities are in order. "House/boat poor" is not good. lol However, 20 years on a boat loan is a bit much if it's under $100,000. On the flip side, I plan on trying for the 12-15 year term at the lower APR, but will most likely make double payments as I can. If we get into a pinch, hopefully we won't be upside down, and should we need to liquidate assets, quick sale is possible. I buy everything with the intent of selling it in the future. Even if it's for a loss, as long as I enjoyed it while I had it, it's ok with me. To each their own. :)

190 FSH in my future.
 
Top