Future of Fuel....NOT GOOD

[njmr2fan]

sorry @Glassman, Its 2.59 for Ethanol free gas in Augusta.

 

[Big Shasta]

Gas here is around 2.65 but the damn E0 folks want 3.40....Crazy. It used to be about .30 high not it runs about .80 higher. It's still worth every penny to me for the yard equipment and all I ever used in the boat. I used to use it in my vehicles a lot but not so much with this price difference.

 

[gthh]

THERE IS ! The Racor 110A fuel filter/water separator:

http://ph.parker.com/us/17583/en/high-pressure-fuel-filters-water-separator [/QUOTE

 

[gthh]

Great. thanks I will look into it!

 

[Greg M]

I hate to be the one that says this, but unless you are buying "boutique" gas, like from VP, there is no bulk gasoline sold in the US that doesn't have ethanol in it, and its been this way for decades. The ONLY reason they post about ethanol content now is if it goes over a certain percentage. They have been putting ethanol in gas to use as a stop gap for water condensation in gas station fuel tanks (among other reasons), ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts water) and makes it settle to the bottom (preciprotate to a degree it cant remix) where it is supposed to be purged out so you never get "bad gas".

Ironically, I literally grew up in the car industry, retired from that, and went to the oil and gas industry. Here are a few myths, and for every article you link showing im full of poop, I'll link two showing im not and have members on here confirm.

#1 Ethanol ruins car/truck motors - completely false People have been using ethanol, a LOT of ethanol, for decades in the Midwest. The cry about they started putting ethanol in my gas, and a month later it blew up, is frankly horse crap. I have personally witness two cases of a motor "blowing up" that was blamed on ethanol.... it has NOTHING to do with the water pump going out on a customers 02 lesabre, and the F150 that ethanol blew up its motor...... well when youre driving down I40 and a 2x4 flies off a truck and hits your truck, you might, maybe, want to pull over and make sure it didn't put a pinky size hole in your radiator. (owned a carlot from 98 to 2012, dad opened it in 64. We averaged about 150 cars a year, I have a much larger sample pool than most lol)

#2 Ethanol in gas ruined my weed eater/lawn mower - maybe! There are documented cases of ethanol making the gas added lubricant "drop out of suspension". BUT, this is only in cases where castor based two cycle oil was in use and ONLY certain ones. PJ1 a had a castor based two cycle oil, you could sit the jug down, come back 2 days later, oil was on the bottom BUT Bel-Ray castor based two cycle oil had zero problems, same with YamaLube (synthetic). (sorry all, raced dirt bikes since 92 and still have my 02 cr250, know my oil and gas on this department) Certain synthetics had a settling issue but in the last 5 years, its a thing of non-existence now

#3 My car gets worse gas mileage on ethanol laden gas - complete and utter bullshit ... 100%

#4 My car/truck has less horsepower on ethanol laden gas - to a degree yes possibly, depends on the car/truck manufacturer and software (yes software) setup for fuel delivery. If you had a dyno you might, maybe, see a horsepower deviation.

#5 Ethanol ate my fuel lines up!!! ......umm no. Ethanol can't. do your research. vulcanized rubber, nitrile, TPU is extremely ethanol resistant to such a degree it would take years for the lines to deteriorate and ive seen plenty of older cars back when you had regular, unleaded, and super unleaded gas options need vulcanized gas lines replaced.... time hurts it more than ethanol.

#6 Leave gas with ethanol sitting long enough and it seperates. kind of but not how you think. Ethanol is in gasoline in the form of an additive that's held in a solution. What DOES fall out of solution is water condensation combined with ethanol in underground gas tanks BUT it is supposed to do that. Ethanol is supposed to bond with the water molecule and do it in a way that it acts like a preciprotate to make sure the water STAYS on the bottom and in the tanks trap so it can be drawn out.

On #6, is if this is the case, why don't I have a bunch of gunk in the bottom of my boats fuel tank after its winter storage........ if you use stabilizer, which most are isopropanol in composition, the water evaporates out, along with gasoline and ethanol. If you don't use stabilizer, you will have some "gunk" in the tank. Wont be a lot .....ever notice when you first start your boat after a long winters nap it sometimes runs a bit rough for a few seconds or minutes? That's usually gunk lol. I can type you a novel on this if you like.

A lot you hear about ethanol is the same "expert advice" that tells you iridium spark plugs make more power and higher octane means more horsepower or that a stronger current ignition gives a more complete fuel burn....... yeah ....no! They either don't now, have an agenda, or worse think they know. Do your diligence. Ethanol in gas is nothing new, been in there fore decades, just in a small enough percentage they don't have to tell you about it.

 

[Big Shasta]

I hate to be the one that says this, but unless you are buying "boutique" gas, like from VP, there is no bulk gasoline sold in the US that doesn't have ethanol in it, and its been this way for decades. The ONLY reason they post about ethanol content now is if it goes over a certain percentage. They have been putting ethanol in gas to use as a stop gap for water condensation in gas station fuel tanks (among other reasons), ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts water) and makes it settle to the bottom (preciprotate to a degree it cant remix) where it is supposed to be purged out so you never get "bad gas".

Ironically, I literally grew up in the car industry, retired from that, and went to the oil and gas industry. Here are a few myths, and for every article you link showing im full of poop, I'll link two showing im not and have members on here confirm.

#1 Ethanol ruins car/truck motors - completely false People have been using ethanol, a LOT of ethanol, for decades in the Midwest. The cry about they started putting ethanol in my gas, and a month later it blew up, is frankly horse crap. I have personally witness two cases of a motor "blowing up" that was blamed on ethanol.... it has NOTHING to do with the water pump going out on a customers 02 lesabre, and the F150 that ethanol blew up its motor...... well when youre driving down I40 and a 2x4 flies off a truck and hits your truck, you might, maybe, want to pull over and make sure it didn't put a pinky size hole in your radiator. (owned a carlot from 98 to 2012, dad opened it in 64. We averaged about 150 cars a year, I have a much larger sample pool than most lol)

#2 Ethanol in gas ruined my weed eater/lawn mower - maybe! There are documented cases of ethanol making the gas added lubricant "drop out of suspension". BUT, this is only in cases where castor based two cycle oil was in use and ONLY certain ones. PJ1 a had a castor based two cycle oil, you could sit the jug down, come back 2 days later, oil was on the bottom BUT Bel-Ray castor based two cycle oil had zero problems, same with YamaLube (synthetic). (sorry all, raced dirt bikes since 92 and still have my 02 cr250, know my oil and gas on this department) Certain synthetics had a settling issue but in the last 5 years, its a thing of non-existence now

#3 My car gets worse gas mileage on ethanol laden gas - complete and utter bullshit ... 100%

#4 My car/truck has less horsepower on ethanol laden gas - to a degree yes possibly, depends on the car/truck manufacturer and software (yes software) setup for fuel delivery. If you had a dyno you might, maybe, see a horsepower deviation.

#5 Ethanol ate my fuel lines up!!! ......umm no. Ethanol can't. do your research. vulcanized rubber, nitrile, TPU is extremely ethanol resistant to such a degree it would take years for the lines to deteriorate and ive seen plenty of older cars back when you had regular, unleaded, and super unleaded gas options need vulcanized gas lines replaced.... time hurts it more than ethanol.

#6 Leave gas with ethanol sitting long enough and it seperates. kind of but not how you think. Ethanol is in gasoline in the form of an additive that's held in a solution. What DOES fall out of solution is water condensation combined with ethanol in underground gas tanks BUT it is supposed to do that. Ethanol is supposed to bond with the water molecule and do it in a way that it acts like a preciprotate to make sure the water STAYS on the bottom and in the tanks trap so it can be drawn out.

On #6, is if this is the case, why don't I have a bunch of gunk in the bottom of my boats fuel tank after its winter storage........ if you use stabilizer, which most are isopropanol in composition, the water evaporates out, along with gasoline and ethanol. If you don't use stabilizer, you will have some "gunk" in the tank. Wont be a lot .....ever notice when you first start your boat after a long winters nap it sometimes runs a bit rough for a few seconds or minutes? That's usually gunk lol. I can type you a novel on this if you like.

A lot you hear about ethanol is the same "expert advice" that tells you iridium spark plugs make more power and higher octane means more horsepower or that a stronger current ignition gives a more complete fuel burn....... yeah ....no! They either don't now, have an agenda, or worse think they know. Do your diligence. Ethanol in gas is nothing new, been in there fore decades, just in a small enough percentage they don't have to tell you about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "boutique gas" I can buy E0 at about 10 stations around me and my ethanol test kit confirms it's ethanol free. Stop at any boat mechanic and ask them how much business they get from ethanol issues.

I absolutely get better gas mileage on E0. Not enough to offset the cost but it's easily proven higher mileage.

 

[Greg M]

Shasta, you can buy gas from a station claiming E0, and if your kit confirms it, you realize the kits have a factor of +/- 1.5%. Im sure you can get it, my point is what ethanol can and cant do. But I know for a fact that the same trucking company hauls to 4 different chain stations around here (okc and surrounding areas) and 2 claim Ethanol free the Sinclairs and Shamrock.... and it all comes from the same depot, in their own container trailer, hauled by the same trucking company on contract. Also, http://www.fuel-testers.com/find_ethanol_free_gasoline.html read first big bold print, 95% have 10% Ethanol. You realize that any motor since 2003 by design is perfectly happy with up to 10%?

As far as boat mechanics, I am willing to bet you money that if you looked at their repair tickets and the repairs they do claiming ethanol, you look back 10 years and they where doing virtually the same repairs and claiming old age on line problems and engine rebuilds but I will grant you that when they raised the ethanol content years ago, 2 cycle motors burned up left and right due to no oil unless they uses oil injection (and about every person I know rips that off every outboard, jetski, ect as soon as they can and mixes in the tank). Now they can say dang old ethanol. I am willing to bet on the engine side, if its a 4 cycle, the motor went and they just happened to also find a cooling problem. Gunk in tanks, I would bet to them it seems way higher because it looks way worse! Again, looking at past work tickets, replace water in tank with gunk and I would bet its about the same. Might take more to clean them, but imo, its an owner problem of neglect. Note, the ethanol that's making gunk, the gunk moves around less and doesn't "fragment into individual beads" like plain water does when disturbed. On that I will grant you takes more to clean it up and out.

Better mileage on E0. Car, Truck, Boat? How are you arriving at this conclusion? Not trying to argue or debate or challenge you Shasta. Just trying to keep things factual, you wouldn't believe some of the "official studies" that I have to wade thru weekly in the oil and gas industry and at least half of them are utter bullshit. As in they didn't do a test or study to see what was going on, they wanted a result and found data to prop it up and its glaringly obvious lol

 

[Big Shasta]

Shasta, you can buy gas from a station claiming E0, and if your kit confirms it, you realize the kits have a factor of +/- 1.5%. Im sure you can get it, my point is what ethanol can and cant do. But I know for a fact that the same trucking company hauls to 4 different chain stations around here (okc and surrounding areas) and 2 claim Ethanol free the Sinclairs and Shamrock.... and it all comes from the same depot, in their own container trailer, hauled by the same trucking company on contract. Also, http://www.fuel-testers.com/find_ethanol_free_gasoline.html read first big bold print, 95% have 10% Ethanol. You realize that any motor since 2003 by design is perfectly happy with up to 10%?

As far as boat mechanics, I am willing to bet you money that if you looked at their repair tickets and the repairs they do claiming ethanol, you look back 10 years and they where doing virtually the same repairs and claiming old age on line problems and engine rebuilds but I will grant you that when they raised the ethanol content years ago, 2 cycle motors burned up left and right due to no oil unless they uses oil injection (and about every person I know rips that off every outboard, jetski, ect as soon as they can and mixes in the tank). Now they can say dang old ethanol. I am willing to bet on the engine side, if its a 4 cycle, the motor went and they just happened to also find a cooling problem. Gunk in tanks, I would bet to them it seems way higher because it looks way worse! Again, looking at past work tickets, replace water in tank with gunk and I would bet its about the same. Might take more to clean them, but imo, its an owner problem of neglect. Note, the ethanol that's making gunk, the gunk moves around less and doesn't "fragment into individual beads" like plain water does when disturbed. On that I will grant you takes more to clean it up and out.

Better mileage on E0. Car, Truck, Boat? How are you arriving at this conclusion? Not trying to argue or debate or challenge you Shasta. Just trying to keep things factual, you wouldn't believe some of the "official studies" that I have to wade thru weekly in the oil and gas industry and at least half of them are utter bullshit. As in they didn't do a test or study to see what was going on, they wanted a result and found data to prop it up and its glaringly obvious lol

Sorry Greg, you're way off the reservation. 95% have E10...the other 5% have E0, not sure what your point is there.

I can easily prove the fuel mileage, when I was using it regularly I would get 1.5-2mpg better on E0 that when I switched to E10. Over long periods, not just a tank or 2. There is more energy in E0, it's simple science. Why do you think E85 vehicles get such horrible mileage on E85? Why do they have to have bigger fuel injectors? They need to deliver more product to make the same power..ie, it has less energy. Why do E85 vehicles have to have fuel systems specially designed to handle the caustic nature of ethanol if it's not worse than gasoline. Why do E85 vehicles need to have more frequent oil changes if it isn't detrimental? On my Tundra, the oil change interval from Toyota is 10,000 miles. On an E85 tundra that has been using E85 it's 2500 miles. Doesn't that tell you something? and they go from 14mpg average to about 8mpg on E85. Why is that? Sure, those problems are exacerbated in an E85 situation but they still exist in E10 scenarios, just on a smaller scale that means the negative effects happen over a longer period of time.

As you know, the hygroscopic nature of ethanol makes it absorb water. The ethanol reaches a saturation point and then separates from the gasoline. What's left at the top of the tank has a much lower octane. I'm sure you know the industry uses ethanol to raise the octane of gasoline. When you take the ethanol out, the remaining fuel is much lower octane than what you pumped. No fuel system is set up from the factory to deal with phase separation. You could add a fuel water separator but even then, the remaining fuel has been degraded in octane...no fix for that.

I have many friends that have had to pay thousands for fuel system repairs due to ethanol issues. It isn't made up. Sure boat systems have been designed to handle the negative effects of E10 in situations where fuel is treated and used regularly. But remember, the topic here is going up to E15 and how the problems will be exacerbated.

Do a test for phase separation. You know what, I think I will. I wonder how long in the humidity of florida it would take for visible phase separation to take place in a glass container with a small vent....one container of E10 and one of E0. I could even set up a time lapse camera to watch them. I'm working on a project testing some new hardware for the next few weeks. It will have to be after that. Perfect it'll be august when it's nice and stupid humid.

I'm not going to argue science with you. It's been proven countless times. Are you sure you don't work for the corn industry?

 

[arew~SX230]

Greg M,
I agree with you on all points, with the exception of 3 and 4.

E0 114,000 btu/gallon
E100, 76,100 btu/gallon

E10 110,000 btu/gallon

E10 therefore has 3% less energy per gallon, so barring any efficiency gain, your milage and horse power will take a 3% hit.

That said, I have been stuck with E?(up to 10% pumps around here dont get more specific) for years with no ill effects, other than paying more for less, and the resultant increase in food prices caused by the diversion of grain into fuel.

Andy

 

[mljhnr]

> #3 My car gets worse gas mileage on ethanol laden gas - complete and utter bullshit ... 100%

I'm definetly no fuel expert but I can guarantee my one E85 vehicle get's about 70% of MPG when running E85 vs even gas listed as 10% ethanol.

 

[tdonoughue]

Were I smart, I would just keep my mouth shut (fingers off?). But, well, so much for that...

Ethanol burns much faster than gasoline and has fewer btu/gallon. That is why when you burn E85 (or even E10), you get lower gas mileage. But, you also get better acceleration (proportionally, of course). That is why Formula One cars use E90-E100. It gives the off-the-line speed they regularly require. Yes, higher octane. But with the higher octane comes lower gas mileage.

You won't find me condemning E10 or E15. Nor will you find me hailing its benefits. Life is balance, tradeoffs and risk. If you don't like the tradeoffs E10 provides, don't buy it. If E15 is too risky for you in that it might cause something to corrode a little faster than E10 or E0, don't buy it. But then equally please don't complain that you don't like paying more--that was the tradeoff. Thank God we live in a country where we have choice. Do what fits your risk profile and understand the tradeoffs. Balance as best you can and move on.

 

[Big Shasta]

Were I smart, I would just keep my mouth shut (fingers off?). But, well, so much for that...

Ethanol burns much faster than gasoline and has fewer btu/gallon. That is why when you burn E85 (or even E10), you get lower gas mileage. But, you also get better acceleration (proportionally, of course). That is why Formula One cars use E90-E100. It gives the off-the-line speed they regularly require. Yes, higher octane. But with the higher octane comes lower gas mileage.

You won't find me condemning E10 or E15. Nor will you find me hailing its benefits. Life is balance, tradeoffs and risk. If you don't like the tradeoffs E10 provides, don't buy it. If E15 is too risky for you in that it might cause something to corrode a little faster than E10 or E0, don't buy it. But then equally please don't complain that you don't like paying more--that was the tradeoff. Thank God we live in a country where we have choice. Do what fits your risk profile and understand the tradeoffs. Balance as best you can and move on.

Tradeoffs? Which ones are those? Find me one positive of ethanol fuels for the general commuting public that isn't disputed by reputable science. And don't just count the finished product, talk about the energy it takes to produce it and the pollution those factories produce also. Less foreign oil? If we really cared about that, we would pump the oil we have........It's corn lobby plain and simple.

Do we have choice? Everyone that doesn't have E0 stations near them, Raise Your Hand. They have no choice. How long will E15 be on the market before that is also the case with that garbage? That's the point here.

 

[arew~SX230]

Is ethanol as fuel a good government policy?
NO.(imho)
Is it the internal combustion apocalypse?
NO (fact)

More than a few years back, unleaded fuel was the of the end of the world, and a gov. conspiracy. We are all still here and so are 60's era muscle cars.

 

[Glassman]

Thanks for posting, I signed the petition.

https://www.votervoice.net/Shares/BAAAAAwhAC5BKAZsnMN7FAA

Thanks, I got my first ever "Thumbs down" for posting that address

Good to see someone put it to good use.

There are some people so dependent on producing corn for ethanol production that just don't give a damn about anyone else having problems with that crap in our fuel.

Here's a great read published by Forbes that will enlighten those intelligent enough to comprehend it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

 

[Big Shasta]

Thanks, I got my first ever "Thumbs down" for posting that address

Good to see someone put it to good use.

There are some people so dependent on producing corn for ethanol production that just don't give a damn about anyone else having problems with that crap in our fuel.

Here's a great read published by Forbes that will enlighten those intelligent enough to comprehend it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

I went back and gave you a thumbs up to cancel that crap out...LOL