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New twin turbo six coming to Stellantis

BlkGS said:
Same, though the cts v wagon is a little boring looking to me. The AMG wagons are awesome too.

But like I said before... I just don't have a use case for them. They're so expensive, don't have the utility of a sport suv, and usually cost as much or more than the equivalent suv.

I'd be all for a sport wagon if it could tow like the suv versions. But, they can't, so I don't really have a use case for them, I guess because of the boat, lol.

Honestly, before I bought my TBSS I was strongly considering a magnum srt8. They just didn't sell many of them, and they couldn't tow at all.
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Def a niche market. Like if I won the powerball, I would have one just because I think it's cool.
 
2kwik4u said:
Looks like Mazda is hopping on the straight six bandwagon!

www.caranddriver.com

Mazda CX-70 and CX-90 SUVs Go Upmarket with New Platform, Inline-Six

Here's what to expect from Mazda's upcoming mid-size crossovers, the two-row CX-70 and three-row CX-90 that are both slated to debut within the next year.
www.caranddriver.com www.caranddriver.com
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You know, I like I line 6s and their advantages as much as the next guy... But Mazda isn't who I'd want on my team. The last good engine they made was the Ford ones, lol. In the long line of illustrious Mazda engines you have the wankels (everyone knows about those failures), that weird combustion cycle supercharged motor out of the millenia, the 2.3L turbo from the speed3/6/cx-7 that blew up all the time (but is ironically the basic blueprint for basically every 4 banger out there now), the Mazdaspeed protégé that they legit stuck an aftermarket turbo kit on the stock engine and called it a day... As much as I applaud them for trying stuff, they don't exactly have a track record of winners except the cars that used the duratec v6s from Ford, lol.

Honestly, Mazda as a whole has got to be the most confusingly lost brand on the market. First they were all about zoom zoom, they did that pretty well. Then they were about eco stuff kind of? But those engines didn't last and were horrible reliability wise. Then they did their stylized emotional car phase, and now they think they're gonna be upmarket?

The near lux space is really very crowded. Mainstream brands are closer than ever before to lux, and you've got companies like Genesis that are punching so far above their weight class it isn't even funny. I wish them luck, but that's a tough market to break into, especially if you're Mazda and tiny, and people remember when they were rrbadged cheaper Fords.
 
Lost me again on the Wankel hate. Rotaries are amazing engines. however, just like jetboats, they're wildly misunderstood. I love the rotary engines, and think they're quite brilliant. Smooth linear power in such a tiny package. 178hp/liter without boost is just amazing to me. Emissions requirements finally did them in, which is quite sad (although I think the new CX-50 has one as a range extender. That's gotta make your head spin for certain. Plug in hybrid with a range extender finally appears, and it's got a wankel powering the generator :D :D

I do agree that Mazda needs to find their lane and stick in it. They've wandered around a bit and found mixed successes all over the place, and a smattering of failures here and there.
 
2kwik4u said:
Lost me again on the Wankel hate. Rotaries are amazing engines. however, just like jetboats, they're wildly misunderstood. I love the rotary engines, and think they're quite brilliant. Smooth linear power in such a tiny package. 178hp/liter without boost is just amazing to me. Emissions requirements finally did them in, which is quite sad (although I think the new CX-50 has one as a range extender. That's gotta make your head spin for certain. Plug in hybrid with a range extender finally appears, and it's got a wankel powering the generator :D :D

I do agree that Mazda needs to find their lane and stick in it. They've wandered around a bit and found mixed successes all over the place, and a smattering of failures here and there.
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Clearly your apex seals didn't fail, yet, lol.

Honestly I loved driving the rx8. That insanely high Rev limiter was addicting. Less so was the fact that they were slow, sucked on gas, couldn't really make more power, apex seal issues, no low down torque, lights that fogged up... But honestly they were brilliant to drive. My gf at the time had a friend who's bf had an rx8 and was always talking shit about my vue. Tons of "how can you be a car guy if you're driving a mommy mobile" blah blah blah. One night we finally got lined up leaving someplace and I absolutely blasted his ass in the saturn. That was the end of that line of shit talking, lol. Next time we saw him he was saying how he was going to get his dad to buy him a g35 Coupe lol.

Wankels actually make a lot of sense for use as a generator, because you don't need much torque, just revs, which they do great at. Also you can program all that silly start up and shut down stuff rotaries supposedly need to last into them.
 
BlkGS said:
Clearly your apex seals didn't fail, yet, lol.

Honestly I loved driving the rx8. That insanely high Rev limiter was addicting. Less so was the fact that they were slow, sucked on gas, couldn't really make more power, apex seal issues, no low down torque, lights that fogged up... But honestly they were brilliant to drive. My gf at the time had a friend who's bf had an rx8 and was always talking shit about my vue. Tons of "how can you be a car guy if you're driving a mommy mobile" blah blah blah. One night we finally got lined up leaving someplace and I absolutely blasted his ass in the saturn. That was the end of that line of shit talking, lol. Next time we saw him he was saying how he was going to get his dad to buy him a g35 Coupe lol.

Wankels actually make a lot of sense for use as a generator, because you don't need much torque, just revs, which they do great at. Also you can program all that silly start up and shut down stuff rotaries supposedly need to last into them.
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SOOOOO much misinformation in here.

I've had (6) different rotary powered cars. Didn't lose a single set of apex seals. 3 of them had more than 150k miles, one of them had over 300k miles on its original engine. I brought one back from the dead with "stuck" apex seals and put another 50k miles on it before I sold it. There are two things that kill seals. Carbon deposits or excessive chamber pressure. The first comes from driving it like a corolla and not changing the oil. The second comes from predetonation or too much boost (or both). If you drive the car like it's stolen a few times a week, and you keep predetonation at bay (run good fuel, keep ignition in good working order) they will give you decades of reliable service.

The start/stop BS that some people had is due to carbon deposits. Reference paragraph above to solve.

The other large killer is heat. Overheat the engine and the seals between the housings will fail. Then you have a traditional oil in the coolant, or coolant in the combustion problem.

In terms of drag racing....if you're drag racing an RX8 your a dummy anyway. They aren't meant to be drag cars, they're canyon carvers. Typical American philosophy to equate quality of vehicle with ability to drive in a straight line fast. Such a far more nuanced car than that. Sure, you're Vue Redline (which is as much of a Mom mobile as my Q7 BTW, no matter how much we dress them up) is great in a straight line, but that RX8 would flat embarrass either of those Mom Mobiles on any even remotely twisty road. The chassis and engine were so perfectly matched they're a pure pleasure to drive.

Finally.....generators require torque, and lots of it. You're fighting a rotating magnetic field. The more load you have the more torque you need for a given rev target. My guess is that Mazda has a gearbox on that single rotor wankel to create the required torque, and drive the engine at a higher rev count where its most fuel effecient. It is a great fit IMO, but not for any of the reasons you mention.
 
Another mazda fanboi here. We have 3 on our driveway. The skyactiv 2.5ltr is an amazing motor. We don't have children so we dont need a large vehicle most times. Our 3 sedan gets 37xx mpg year round. Rarely moves from that. While it isnt prius mpg, it isnt prius slow either. It is no drag car but the usuable power curve is delicious.
 
I had a few buddies with tx8s, so I'm basing my experience off theirs. They were constantly worried about apex seals, except the one that had a replacement engine, lol.

My one buddy who offered to teach the new owner how to care for it when he sold it (yes it was as funny and condescending as it sounds, lol) insisted that you had to like Rev the engine up as you shut it down. Said it had to do with oiling or something, don't remember specifically what.

I agree, not drag cars. Brilliant road cars, very much a driver enjoyment car. A great car to just take out on some twisty roads and have a blast. Won't be the fastest, but it'll be fun. That's how my sti was, not the fastest, but a really enjoyable car to drive on a backroad.

Also, you don't need THAT much torque do run a generator. You design it to have the displacement needed, and ten use the revs to spin it faster to generate your power. A rotary is ideal for that, size it for the needed torque, take advantage of the lower rotational mass, it's great.
 
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adrianp89 said:
“The Hurricane will eventually pair with the brand’s eTorque and plug-in-hybrid technologies.”
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I'm surprised they didn't introduct I with it honestly. A PHEV Wagoneer makes a LOT of sense for most people.... With the budget. Certainly it makes more sense than a pure EV SUV.

I think the real edge is going to be when they combine a PHEV battery size with electric drive train, and small range extenders under the hood. The efficiency of electric, the logistics of Ice, plus a lower cost as you're downsizing on motor and battery.
 
@BlkGS

Saw this at Soccer practice. Sharp looking ride. Was exceptionally throaty if it was a straight six.

PXL_20220912_220455715.jpg
 
That could be a regular wagoneer. I see them around town fairly often. A lot of presence, but just something about the rear 3/4 that doesn't work for me. Can't put my finger on it.
 
Looks like a lot of reviews dropped today. Key points I've seen so far, it's faster 0 to 60.... because you can bomb the things from 3500rpm. All the other metrics it seems to be slower than the v8 models, like 5 to 60, highway passing, etc.

I still think it'll make a good motor for grand Cherokee and ram, but it might end up being less desirable in the wagoneers than the v8s.
 
It is quite confusing, but it looks like for 2023 models base trim is V8 and higher levels are twin turbo. In the Grand Wagoneer it is a no cost option to get the V8 instead. There is something about not being able to do that in the L models.

Adopton will be combo of availability and personAl preference. Similar to V8 vs Ecoboost for Ford.
 
TimW451 said:
It is quite confusing, but it looks like for 2023 models base trim is V8 and higher levels are twin turbo. In the Grand Wagoneer it is a no cost option to get the V8 instead. There is something about not being able to do that in the L models.

Adopton will be combo of availability and personAl preference. Similar to V8 vs Ecoboost for Ford.
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Yeah, it coming standard on the L models is very odd. I dunno if they think the L will be very popular and so will drive turbo 6 sales? Or maybe they just didn't want to certify 2 motors in the longer version?

Reviewers have said a lot of the things I feel about the ecoboost. There's a lag to power delivery as it builds boost, to get the performance out of it you really beat on it (but it delivers), and real world fuel economy isnt really that impressive vs the V8s. Seen a couple of people commenting on design choices that make it seem like there will be a few common failure points that will be really pain in the ass jobs.

I'm still interested in driving one. I think it'll be an awesome engine in a GC L.
 
BlkGS said:
Yeah, it coming standard on the L models is very odd. I dunno if they think the L will be very popular and so will drive turbo 6 sales? Or maybe they just didn't want to certify 2 motors in the longer version?

Reviewers have said a lot of the things I feel about the ecoboost. There's a lag to power delivery as it builds boost, to get the performance out of it you really beat on it (but it delivers), and real world fuel economy isnt really that impressive vs the V8s. Seen a couple of people commenting on design choices that make it seem like there will be a few common failure points that will be really pain in the ass jobs.

I'm still interested in driving one. I think it'll be an awesome engine in a GC L.
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Standard on the L is likely a NVH based choice. Straight 6s are butter smooth.
 
BlkGS said:
Yeah, it coming standard on the L models is very odd. I dunno if they think the L will be very popular and so will drive turbo 6 sales? Or maybe they just didn't want to certify 2 motors in the longer version?

Reviewers have said a lot of the things I feel about the ecoboost. There's a lag to power delivery as it builds boost, to get the performance out of it you really beat on it (but it delivers), and real world fuel economy isnt really that impressive vs the V8s. Seen a couple of people commenting on design choices that make it seem like there will be a few common failure points that will be really pain in the ass jobs.

I'm still interested in driving one. I think it'll be an awesome engine in a GC L.
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Just curious have you driven a gen2 2.7 Ecoboost in an F150? I came from a 07 F150 5.4L and am amazed at the gas mileage and the smooth power delivery. These things make peak torque (400 ft lb) down at like 2750 rpm. Hardly feels like it’s much effort to get going. Very diesel like, the block is even made with compacted graphite iron Which the same as the powerstroke diesel. But unlike the original 3.5 Ecoboost, this one has no turbo lag (integrated exhaust manifold to turbo) and also delivers on mileage. My 2019 supercrew 4x4 has gotten 27mpg @65mph consistently.
 
2kwik4u said:
Standard on the L is likely a NVH based choice. Straight 6s are butter smooth.
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If it was NVH, they'd have made it standard across the line. Honestly. I think it boils down to they didn't want to pay to certify the engine in the longer wheelbase because they'll phase it out in a year or 2.
 
906Tony said:
Just curious have you driven a gen2 2.7 Ecoboost in an F150? I came from a 07 F150 5.4L and am amazed at the gas mileage and the smooth power delivery. These things make peak torque (400 ft lb) down at like 2750 rpm. Hardly feels like it’s much effort to get going. Very diesel like, the block is even made with compacted graphite iron Which the same as the powerstroke diesel. But unlike the original 3.5 Ecoboost, this one has no turbo lag (integrated exhaust manifold to turbo) and also delivers on mileage. My 2019 supercrew 4x4 has gotten 27mpg @65mph consistently.
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I haven't driven the 2.7, at least not lately. I did drove the explorer ST with the 3.0 nano, and it was fine. Punchy even I'd call it. I definitely noticed the same delay in our 3.5 expedition, I wouldn't call it lag like my STI had, more like... delay. It was like you put your foot down, the truck is like "what's he doing? Full speed ahead? Are you sure? OK, full speed ahead". And then it'd deliver power.

To be honest, the 3.0 felt like a cheaper to build lighter duty 3.5 alternative. I also didn't like that it seemed to always want to be in boost. That may have been me driving an Explorer st like it should be, but our expedition is more than happy to putt around town out of boost.

I know a lot of people are very pro the 2.7, but it just didn't feel like a better motor than the 3.5 to me.

Funny you bring up the powerstroke though. I found a powerstroke platinum at a very attractive price. I don't think I'd prefer that from a performance standpoint, but man are those neat. Real shame they only came with the smaller gas tank, amd weren't offered very long.
 
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