SeaDoo iDF - Intelligent Debris Free Pump System

[VitaminSea]

Just stumbled upon this new SeaDoo feature in an email I received. Sharing here, as I find it interesting - reversing the prop direction to dislodge debris from the pump. Link is to a short marking video showing it in action...

Anyone have insight on how this is done in a direct drive set-up? Would there be the need for a transmission installed?

 

[Luc Lafreniere]

That is very cool. Hopefully it spreads into all BRP engines in the future.

 

[Dean P]

The video states it stops the engine and the transmission spins the prop in reverse. Brilliant idea!

 

[Canuckjetboater]

Just stumbled upon this new SeaDoo feature in an email I received. Sharing here, as I find it interesting - reversing the prop direction to dislodge debris from the pump. Link is to a short marking video showing it in action...

@VitaminSea ......so Sea Doo is a Canadian product (well sort of with an austrian engine etc.). As a Canadian I hate to slag a home grown product but my friends and I who live on the water (literally) use Kawasaki and Yamaha PWCs - we taunt, make fun of and smoke SDs any time we can. We have a nickname for them "grenades". BTW Using the words Sea Doo and intelligent in the same sentence.........too funny! While I'm at it. Give me a manual clean-out any day. How long do you think this feature will last until it jams or fails and how much will it cost to repair - still remembering the Sea Doo superchargers :-( AND how will this system handle the mooring line, rope debris that is commonly wound around the shaft? It won't so my friends and I will still get to see SD owners go swimming!

 

[biffdotorg]

Imagine if BRP had utilized the ETEC engines in their personal watercraft back in the day. No they wouldn't have 300hp PWC, but they may have 180hp, fuel efficient two stroke PWC, with ultra light weight and the ability to use RER (reverse engine rotation) way back in the day with this functionality. With no additional moving parts to fail.

If more MFG's had not given up on 2-stroke. The sled market is doing very well with 2-stroke engines and emissions. And I am the last one to admit that after jumping on the Yamaha 4-stroke sled bandwagon back in 2006.

This is cool tech, and their buyers will love it.

 

[Neutron]

I had an Older 2 stroke skidoo sled that had technology when you engaged reverse the engine actually stalled briefly and restarted backwards to make the the sled go backwards.
So i am not surprised they got this into their watercraft

 

[Beachbummer]

It seems such a small leap from this to neutral... That would be a really slick improvement we don't have today.

It seems a lot of gears only for a few seconds of reverse.

 

[tdonoughue]

I think that is why you need to shut down in order to activate/deactivate it: there is only 1 gear changing, no clutch, no shifter, no neutral, etc.

 

[Enduro900]

Imagine if BRP had utilized the ETEC engines in their personal watercraft back in the day. No they wouldn't have 300hp PWC, but they may have 180hp, fuel efficient two stroke PWC, with ultra light weight and the ability to use RER (reverse engine rotation) way back in the day with this functionality. With no additional moving parts to fail.

If more MFG's had not given up on 2-stroke. The sled market is doing very well with 2-stroke engines and emissions. And I am the last one to admit that after jumping on the Yamaha 4-stroke sled bandwagon back in 2006.

This is cool tech, and their buyers will love it.

2 strokes can never achieve the same emission standards as a 4-stroke. That is why the cleanest burning snowmobile on the market still cannot be approved for use in yellowstone. This is why 2-strokes disappeared from outboards as well.

There was a company called orbital that was developing 2 stroke engines for use In cars in the 1990’s. A couple of the manufacturers were close to implementing this into their cars, but the longevity was just not there in the durability testing, and of course emission standards got tougher.

2-strokes actually develop more power for cc, so seadoo could have a 300hp 2-stroke engine (without supercharging) if they built a 1.2-1.5 liter 2 stroke engine. Their 850cc 2-stroke snowmobile engine makes 160hp NA. Their 900cc 4-stroke needs a turbo for 150hp.

 

[Enduro900]

I had an Older 2 stroke skidoo sled that had technology when you engaged reverse the engine actually stalled briefly and restarted backwards to make the the sled go backwards.
So i am not surprised they got this into their watercraft

A 4-stroke cannot run backwards like a 2 stroke can by changing the timing. So i think what this system does is a reverse gear change in a transmission, and it must be a simple system that is why the engine needs to be off. Still better than jumping in the water, i hope this is introduced into the BRP-powered boats.

 

[biffdotorg]

2 strokes can never achieve the same emission standards as a 4-stroke. That is why the cleanest burning snowmobile on the market still cannot be approved for use in yellowstone. This is why 2-strokes disappeared from outboards as well.

Sorry to say this is the myth that killed any market share that Yamaha had in snowmobiles. As yamaha went full four stroke believing this myth. And once the low emission ETEC was introduced, it actually out performed the current Yamahas in the are of emissions.

Yellowstone’s allowance for sleds is called BAT or Best Available Technology. When the this was first introduced, the BAT sleds were all four strokes. Then they were replaced with low emission two strokes, which out performed the Yamaha four strokes for emissions and were allowed when Yamaha like the ones I owned were not on the BAT list.

The current BAT sleds are the SkiDoo Ace line of four strokes. It’s hard to believe, but two stokes in the sled market have been kept alive due to this technology. And no, it was not emissions that killed off Evinrude either. That was a choice by BRP to kill off the line due to sales. But performance was there for sure.

 

[Enduro900]

Sorry I meant to say the “cleanest burning 2-stroke” snowmobile on the market still cannot be approved for Yellowstone. Yes Skidoo’s ACE 900 4-strokes has been approved for Yellowstone (I know these sleds well, I own three of them).

The cleanest 2 stroke snowmobiles do not meet the same emission test standards as the cleanest 4 stroke snowmobiles. I can also tell you that back in 2006 Yamaha’s 4 strokes out performed (Emission testing) any 2 strokes from 2006 (SDI) and now even in skidoo’s own lineup the 4-stroke ACE engines out perform the 2 strokes (again speaking from an emissions standpoint).

It is possible that the best 2 stroke engine could out perform the worst 4 stroke engine (non catalysts, etc)., but inherently an engine that burns some oil (2-stroke) will not run as clean as an engine that doesn’t (meaning 2-stroke vs 4-stroke).

This fall if you go visit a snowmobile dealer in your area they will have an “EPA Emissions” tag on the machines handlebar (or at least are required to) until delivery. The ACE 900’s will have a “Zero” score for “rating”, any of the skidoo 2 strokes will be higher.

I can just tell you from a basic design standpoint, 2 strokes were looked at in the 1990’s for automotive applications and were dropped because of emission issues and durability issues. So fast forward now and the same holds true in the snowmobile marketplace (emissions and durability). Don’t get me wrong a 2 stroke snowmobile has many advantages from a power and weight standpoint, but doesn’t match up in emissions and durability.

As far as Evinrude dropping 2 strokes, I don’t have first-hand knowledge other than I did own a FICHT outboard when they first were released that ran great for me but there were some serious issues for others. And there was a big push for cleaning-up or ending 2 strokes in outboards as back in the 70’s and 80’s it was common for an “oily sheen” to trail behind most outboards. I recall quite a few articles that discussed the amount of unburned “raw” gas and oil that was ending up in Michigans waterways from the boating season....which lead to the manufacturers striving to clean up their engines.

So “Generally speaking” pound-for-pound a 2 stroke wins in power-to-weight, but a comparable 4-stroke will win the emissions battle, and usually longevity as well.

The BAT approval has never approved a 2-stroke from any manufacturer that I know of.

Here is the official list and only Skidoo’s 600 ACE and 900 ACE have ever met the requirements that I am aware of (along with a few from yamaha):

Best Available Technology (BAT) Snowmobiles - Yellowstone National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

I wouldn’t be against a clean-burning 2-stroke jet, but I’m not sure the weight savings would be of much advantage in a boat.....especially since the trend is to add weight with ballasts....

 

[ptwb]

Wow! I had pitched this very idea to some SeaDoo engineers at a press event of theirs I had attended like 10 years ago. They didn't seem interested in the idea.

Super happy to see they finally did do it! Awesome to see there is a manufacturer interesting in trying to solve the ongoing grass/clogging issues that IMO are getting worse here in FL. Grass is my single biggest complaint and why I want to go back to an outboard. If only yamaha would get off their ____ and start innovating again.

Now we just need to solve the problem of clogging up while on a plane. The only thing I can think of so far is a better intake grate design. I liked the old style mercury finger grates that allowed the grate to try to prevent weeds from entering the intake and as they would slide to the back of the grate, then they would slide off the end and be gone whereas today they just start building up. Problem was fingers were breaking off the grate and getting ingested. Maybe somebody could design a stronger finger grate and one where the fingers extend behind and just below the aft part of the intake?

 

[biffdotorg]

Wow! I had pitched this very idea to some SeaDoo engineers at a press event of theirs I had attended like 10 years ago. They didn't seem interested in the idea.

Super happy to see they finally did do it! Awesome to see there is a manufacturer interesting in trying to solve the ongoing grass/clogging issues that IMO are getting worse here in FL. Grass is my single biggest complaint and why I want to go back to an outboard. If only yamaha would get off their ____ and start innovating again.

Now we just need to solve the problem of clogging up while on a plane. The only thing I can think of so far is a better intake grate design. I liked the old style mercury finger grates that allowed the grate to try to prevent weeds from entering the intake and as they would slide to the back of the grate, then they would slide off the end and be gone whereas today they just start building up. Problem was fingers were breaking off the grate and getting ingested. Maybe somebody could design a stronger finger grate and one where the fingers extend behind and just below the aft part of the intake?

Sorry to say, this clogging issue is something I think Yamaha monitors and is based on what percentage of the owners have any issue with it. I actually used my cleanout plugs for the first time ever this year. For those that have grass issues, it's a serious pain. But for a larger percentage, I don't think it's an issue especially on plane. As the area that gave me issues this year, I make sure I am over 25mph, and it's a non-issue.

So everyone's experience will be different. But for the love of God, do not bring back the Mercury SportJet Hydro-Surge grate! That was the most horrific design that would cause catastrophic damage when those fingers broke. Not only did they break, but the SportJet had a Stainless steel sleeve, so it cause very expensive damage when they did. Not if, but when they did.

Most of us SportJet owners swapped that hydro-surge out for a stainless steel "rock" grate or cast grate the minute we saw someone pay over $2000 to repair or replace pump components. It's what led to the JB-Weld fix to fill in the scrapes and gouges in the pump sleeve.

Yes, don't wish for a Hydro-Surge. Yamaha is not known for the best reverse mechanisms over the decades in their other powersports products, so we will see if they decide to go down that road.

 

[Dean P]

Now we just need to solve the problem of clogging up while on a plane.

My $.02

I would think they could shape the hull to deflect obstructions (that sit on top of the water) instead of welcoming it; even a percentage would be better than nothing.

 

[Enduro900]

I wonder if this system will spit out a rope, plastic bag or other larger debris.....

 

[Dean P]

I wonder if this system will spit out a rope, plastic bag or other larger debris.....

Their video shows it doing just that.

 

[ptwb]

Sorry to say, this clogging issue is something I think Yamaha monitors and is based on what percentage of the owners have any issue with it. I actually used my cleanout plugs for the first time ever this year. For those that have grass issues, it's a serious pain. But for a larger percentage, I don't think it's an issue especially on plane. As the area that gave me issues this year, I make sure I am over 25mph, and it's a non-issue.

So everyone's experience will be different. But for the love of God, do not bring back the Mercury SportJet Hydro-Surge grate! That was the most horrific design that would cause catastrophic damage when those fingers broke. Not only did they break, but the SportJet had a Stainless steel sleeve, so it cause very expensive damage when they did. Not if, but when they did.

Most of us SportJet owners swapped that hydro-surge out for a stainless steel "rock" grate or cast grate the minute we saw someone pay over $2000 to repair or replace pump components. It's what led to the JB-Weld fix to fill in the scrapes and gouges in the pump sleeve.

Yes, don't wish for a Hydro-Surge. Yamaha is not known for the best reverse mechanisms over the decades in their other powersports products, so we will see if they decide to go down that road.

What makes you think that Yamaha 'monitors it'?

You are in MN. I'm happy for you that grass is not a major concern for you. The grass issue in FL is getting worse. FL has the most registered boats (per 2018 Abstract: Boat Registrations Section Now Available). In the FL keys, there is so much grass, you will clog up, even on a plane. It's not the end of the world, but it does suck. It's no fun driving having to constantly monitor the water to steer around grass patches.

I brought up the hydro surge because at the basis of it, the fingers, I thought that was the good part. The way they broke off was terrible and I didn't get the whole hinge up part. That seemed backwards too me. I didn't understand why if it got that clogged up, then it would swing up to let the impeller ingest whatever was blocking it. Some debated that the hinge design is what was causing the fingers to break if the grate bounced hard in rough water. Of course, later, they would introduce the opposite, it could be manually swung down but then that implemenation had issues.

But imagine if the grate wasn't hinged and somehow the fingers were made stronger and they didn't break? Or somehow designed that if they did break, they would not get ingested? Then what would the issues be?

 

[Enduro900]

It looks like this is a $500 option on some of the skis.

Hopefully it makes its way to the BRP powered boats but havent seen anything as of yet.....maybe next year

 

[biffdotorg]

What makes you think that Yamaha 'monitors it'?

You are in MN. I'm happy for you that grass is not a major concern for you. The grass issue in FL is getting worse. FL has the most registered boats (per 2018 Abstract: Boat Registrations Section Now Available). In the FL keys, there is so much grass, you will clog up, even on a plane. It's not the end of the world, but it does suck. It's no fun driving having to constantly monitor the water to steer around grass patches.

I brought up the hydro surge because at the basis of it, the fingers, I thought that was the good part. The way they broke off was terrible and I didn't get the whole hinge up part. That seemed backwards too me. I didn't understand why if it got that clogged up, then it would swing up to let the impeller ingest whatever was blocking it. Some debated that the hinge design is what was causing the fingers to break if the grate bounced hard in rough water. Of course, later, they would introduce the opposite, it could be manually swung down but then that implemenation had issues.

But imagine if the grate wasn't hinged and somehow the fingers were made stronger and they didn't break? Or somehow designed that if they did break, they would not get ingested? Then what would the issues be?

I get it, it's a major concern here in MN as well as other places. Just not in the waters I boat in, so I consider myself lucky. But the reason I say they monitor it, as the fact that albeit slow, Yamaha does address many of the concerns we have with features, function or safety over time. The cleanouts were always the hot topic on the Seadoo forum, as Yamaha had them, and seadoo did not. And Yamaha has used the same intake on boats and PWC for years.

And yes, the hinged fingers are what caused it. They would slap down so hard they would break off. I had two break off tips and that was all it took for me to pull it for a cast grate. There is no true right or wrong, as the idea was there for a reason. But it was never to return after SeaDoo dumped Mercury for their new four stroke rotax engines.