New twin turbo six coming to Stellantis

[2kwik4u]

Watched some previews of the L from the auto show. Apparently these motors replace the v8s completely, no option for the v8s anymore.

Sounds like jeep is saying 14 city, 19 highway... So worse than all its v8 competitors and much worse than expedition with the Ecoboost. Sounds like they didn't learn from everyone else who did direct injection before them and left out port injection as an add on (a major upgrade that Ecoboost added).

I think in context, wagoneer in general will underperformed. While super nice inside, they're much more expensive than their gm and Ford counterparts. They also don't have a real differentiator other than being a jeep (similar o how commander was). I think that's going to hurt them, at least until the incentives flow.

Much worse than the Expedition with the Ecoboost? Didn't you just buy one and get 19mpg on the trip home?.....soooooooo......."much worse" really means exactly the same?!?

 

[BlkGS]

Much worse than the Expedition with the Ecoboost? Didn't you just buy one and get 19mpg on the trip home?.....soooooooo......."much worse" really means exactly the same?!?

Nah, we are getting about 18/19 in the city, 21 to 22 highway. The city mpg on this has really surprised me, but the 3.5 actually stays out of boost (per the little boost gauge screen lol) most of the time.

I think the 21 highway is just aero and it being massive at play.

 

[BlkGS]

Going by the drive.com info, it should be comparing to the 6.4L with 15 MPG combined. Doesn’t sound like much, but it is 10% better.

Pricing for the hurricane 510 was released. To get the new motor, it's a $2000 up charge vs the 6.4L v8. While that's not a deal breaker on a 80k plus vehicle, I was sort of expecting it to be a no cost replacement of the V8. Should be interesting to see how it goes, with there being so few cars on lots to test, I dunno that I'd take a 2k plunge on it without being able to side by side them. But they may pull a Ford and not allow dealers to order the V8 unless it's a customer sold order or something.

 

[adrianp89]

Pricing for the hurricane 510 was released. To get the new motor, it's a $2000 up charge vs the 6.4L v8. While that's not a deal breaker on a 80k plus vehicle, I was sort of expecting it to be a no cost replacement of the V8. Should be interesting to see how it goes, with there being so few cars on lots to test, I dunno that I'd take a 2k plunge on it without being able to side by side them. But they may pull a Ford and not allow dealers to order the V8 unless it's a customer sold order or something.

I bet that will be the first year. IIRC the Ram was the same way. Upgrade cost to the eTorque was 1k and the second year it was included at no charge. (I am sure the price went up)

 

[TimW451]

Pricing for the hurricane 510 was released. To get the new motor, it's a $2000 up charge vs the 6.4L v8. While that's not a deal breaker on a 80k plus vehicle, I was sort of expecting it to be a no cost replacement of the V8. Should be interesting to see how it goes, with there being so few cars on lots to test, I dunno that I'd take a 2k plunge on it without being able to side by side them. But they may pull a Ford and not allow dealers to order the V8 unless it's a customer sold order or something.

+1 with @adrianp89 response. Since the 2023 MY will have both versions of the twin, it is very likely that the V8 could be rapidly phased out. I wouldn’t be surprised if the twin was supposed to be the only engine in the Grand Wagoneer.

 

[BlkGS]

+1 with @adrianp89 response. Since the 2023 MY will have both versions of the twin, it is very likely that the V8 could be rapidly phased out. I wouldn’t be surprised if the twin was supposed to be the only engine in the Grand Wagoneer.

That was the initial reports that were coming out, the hemi was being replaced entirely by the hurricane. I could definitely see them rolling it into the base price next year, maybe they didn't release it early enough to do so for the 2023s? The only other option that makes sense is they're worried it won't be a good fit.

The other interesting thing is ram hasn't announced the hurricane for the trucks yet. Honestly a hurricane 510 would be a great foundation for a sporty, not quite srt ram... I could be persuaded by that.

 

[2kwik4u]

http://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/jeeps-hurricane-turbo-six-beats-v8-in-both-economy-and-power/amp/

 

[BlkGS]

http://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/jeeps-hurricane-turbo-six-beats-v8-in-both-economy-and-power/amp/

The more I think about it, I think it makes a lot of sense for the wagoneer. It gets rid of the problematic Etorque system, the problematic AFM system, and eeks out some better fuel economy.

Grand Wagoneer is 100k plus though. And maybe it's just that I can't swallow the price tag of that at all, but a 6 cylinder turbo just doesn't feel special and premium enough to me at that price range, especially when it's just a high boost variant of what's going to be the new mid-size vehicle engine. I know they claim parts are different internally and whatnot... But it's the same engine, maybe slightly nicer, with more boost.

I get that escalade shares engines and all that... I just struggle with "how would I tell myself this is OK for 100k". At a 60 to 80k wagoneer.. Sure, that makes sense to me. But at 100 to 110k... That's a tough one.

Same for navigator too though. Our Ecoboost has been fine in our expedition, but if we were paying navigator money.... I would be disappointed by it. Maybe I'm missing the point and people spending that are just like, this engine is fine, I don't care that it's not that special, 100k ain't nothing to me". But as someone who'd look at the mainstream and luxury offerings and compare them, I feel like if at least want a higher displacement in my 100k version.

 

[TimW451]

I think the “high tech” of a twin turbo will appeal more to the target shopper than larger displacement will. Does the butt day I feel the difference between the two displacements GM and Stellanis offer in the V8s? (I don’t know.) Hmm .7L is like 60 ci,(fact check me) so 383 vs 440. I guess it should.

 

[BlkGS]

I think the “high tech” of a twin turbo will appeal more to the target shopper than larger displacement will. Does the butt day I feel the difference between the two displacements GM and Stellanis offer in the V8s? (I don’t know.) Hmm .7L is like 60 ci,(fact check me) so 383 vs 440. I guess it should.

Our Ecoboost expedition is fine, but the "high tech" of it isn't really a selling point, it does what it does, it sometimes lugs, and it sometimes doesn't make enough power until boost kicks in. Typical turbo stuff. My bigger issue is I wouldn't be able to spend 50% more for a luxury version that would really drive the same. The extra power will come from more boost, so unless they map the throttle to be more sensitive (cuz a hyperactive throttle is luxurious right?) you're not getting any extra power at non WOT situations. Around town, it won't be or feel any more powerful.

Contrast that with a bump in displacement, you'll get the benefit of additional partial throttle power everywhere, as well as the peak hp.

All this to say, I think the base hurricane or Ecoboost makes sense. But I think the HO/luxury/high end motors needed punched out vs just more boost.

 

[2kwik4u]

So what is an "upgrade" on the engine side?

If it's not a TT I6 because that's share with the base, how is that much different than the 6.4L Hemi that's in everything from SUVs to Sedans to Jeeps?

I suspect the target buyer at that level cares more about the leather trim, reclining rear seats, and that sort of thing than the number of cylinders under the hood.

I'm genuinely curious what a "high trim" engine would be.

For me. It's the difference between an S4 and an RS4 from the early 00's.......both have 4.2L V8's but the RS4 had upgraded cams, upgraded intake and valve train a revised redline and 100hp more.

 

[BlkGS]

So what is an "upgrade" on the engine side?

If it's not a TT I6 because that's share with the base, how is that much different than the 6.4L Hemi that's in everything from SUVs to Sedans to Jeeps?

I suspect the target buyer at that level cares more about the leather trim, reclining rear seats, and that sort of thing than the number of cylinders under the hood.

I'm genuinely curious what a "high trim" engine would be.

For me. It's the difference between an S4 and an RS4 from the early 00's.......both have 4.2L V8's but the RS4 had upgraded cams, upgraded intake and valve train a revised redline and 100hp more.

Honestly, I think a little bit of a stroker kit would have been ideal for the vehicles it's destined for. If they had enlarged it out to a 3.3 or 3.6 or somehow managed to bring it up to 4.0, it would feel much more powerful and like a bigger improvement.

Your s4 to rs4 analogy makes sense. While they were the same size, they behaved fundamentally differently. The s4 always had more low end grunt, whereas the rs4 felt biased towards higher rpm power. In this case, the hurricane 510 vs 410 is supposedly just boost, and supposedly the internals to support that (I say supposedly because I haven't seen it explicitly stated, just conjectured by people online). It won't drive any different unless you're WOT, which in a grand wagoneer will be basically never, as its not gonna be quick, and it's not gonna be driven by people that would make a habit of going WOT anyways.

 

[TimW451]

@BlkGS I agree with you technical observations of the difference of the power plants, but I share the POV of @2kwik4u that the target buyer will never lift the hood of the wagon and will either blindly accept the base engine or ask for the “biggest” one.

 

[BlkGS]

@BlkGS I agree with you technical observations of the difference of the power plants, but I share the POV of @2kwik4u that the target buyer will never lift the hood of the wagon and will either blindly accept the base engine or ask for the “biggest” one.

That's probably the truth. I'm not sure if people would test drive both wagoneer or not. We didn't drive the grand wagoneer, because we knew it was more than we wanted to spend. But maybe people who want to spend more won't even drove a wagoneer. I think if they do, it'll be tough to convince them they're getting more engine.

All that said, I continually overestimate the thought people put into buying a car. I have a friend who walked into a dealer, told them she would pay 450 a month, and didn't want a lease. She did no research, no test drives, just ealled in with a budget and out with a surprisingly fair deal on an elantra or something.

 

[2kwik4u]

@BlkGS I agree with you technical observations of the difference of the power plants, but I share the POV of @2kwik4u that the target buyer will never lift the hood of the wagon and will either blindly accept the base engine or ask for the “biggest” one.

I was thinking about this as I followed an Escalade in traffic this morning. Premium buyers want capability and style. The nuts of bolts of how that capability is generated is often at the hobbyist level. For something like a $120k Grand Wagoneer, they want to tow their wake boat or camper somewhere with relative comfort, and they don't want to spend weeks in the shop waiting for it to get fixed. Guys that buy that level of SUV are cross shopping with a Land Cruiser, Range Rover, Escalade, Navigator. Lots of high dollar SUV's where all they want is the capability and style.

 

[2kwik4u]

All that said, I continually overestimate the thought people put into buying a car. I have a friend who walked into a dealer, told them she would pay 450 a month, and didn't want a lease. She did no research, no test drives, just ealled in with a budget and out with a surprisingly fair deal on an elantra or something.

As hobbyists, we're far and away in the minority.

My wife chooses cars similarly. Color, number of doors, and asking somewhat abstract questions on capability. Follow that along with driving impressions that are skewed by odd personal experiences and you end up with what we would consider "wonky" selections.

When we bought the Rogue; she wanted AWD, decent fuel mileage, a sunroof and Adaptive Cruise......and hopefully blue paint. We cross shopped with a Q5, MX-5, Terrain, and RAV-4. Didn't like the Toyota or Audi based on human factors. Didn't even have to drive them. The Terrain was ruled out "because it looks like a station wagon". The MX-5 felt "Sportier than I need, but nice". Ultimately the Rogue won on price point and otherwise not hating it.

She has learned to accept, but not quite understand how I "love" my cars. The sound, the style, the overall look. The emotions it conveys as I drive it, or look back it while walking away. Those intangible things that make you "love" your car.......most people don't have. My wife included. The lonely exception was our RX8, I loved it. And I mean LOVED that car. I think she just really liked it. I'm not certain she ever has, or will, "LOVE" a car. They're just conveyance appliances to her. The equivalent of a toaster on wheels that gets a job done. She likes it to be clean, new and "nice", but otherwise, "meh, I don't really care" is what I hear from here on a regular basis when talking car (or lately truck) details.

If I was a betting man, I would lay money on that covering over 80% of the car buying public. Reference performance wagons in the US, and why they don't sell. Enthusiasts and Journalists love them, everyone else, not so much.

 

[BlkGS]

@2kwik4u

Wagons is an interesting subject. I think a lot is made about their performance advantages and the space is supposedly similar... But nobody ever talks about how the space is much shorter (height) , they don't tow, they don't have great visibility from their height, and typically are a less robust chassis.

People say they want one, but they really don't.

 

[2kwik4u]

@2kwik4u

Wagons is an interesting subject. I think a lot is made about their performance advantages and the space is supposedly similar... But nobody ever talks about how the space is much shorter (height) , they don't tow, they don't have great visibility from their height, and typically are a less robust chassis.

People say they want one, but they really don't.

Agreed on the wagon front. Lots of talk, not much action.

I would've bought a wagon if it could've towed. Instead I'm in a tall wagon and just bought a lowering kit for it ......for all intents and purposes my Q7 is similarly shaped and powered as an A6 Avant. Probably has similar towing characteristics, just not rated for it.

With that said, we tent camped this weekend.....I was really kicking myself for not having a pickup and all the storage space it comes with

 

[adrianp89]

Nothing to add here but wagons are awesome. Loved the Magnum, loved the CTS V-Series wagon. Love the RS Audi wagons. My wife absolutely hates them.

 

[BlkGS]

Nothing to add here but wagons are awesome. Loved the Magnum, loved the CTS V-Series wagon. Love the RS Audi wagons. My wife absolutely hates them.

Same, though the cts v wagon is a little boring looking to me. The AMG wagons are awesome too.

But like I said before... I just don't have a use case for them. They're so expensive, don't have the utility of a sport suv, and usually cost as much or more than the equivalent suv.

I'd be all for a sport wagon if it could tow like the suv versions. But, they can't, so I don't really have a use case for them, I guess because of the boat, lol.

Honestly, before I bought my TBSS I was strongly considering a magnum srt8. They just didn't sell many of them, and they couldn't tow at all.