Tow vehicle?

[2kwik4u]

but like @2kwik4u said I believe the electric ones are eminently better

I've pulled 3-4 different trailers with surge brakes. Probably 5k miles of towing with them. Never again. If a trailer has to be moved with surge brakes, someone else can drive, and I'll meet them there.

One particular instance, pulling my friends 22' Celebrity Cuddy Cabin with dual axles and surge brakes on one. We hit the brakes HARD on the exppressway due to another accident in front of us. It locked the wheels on the trailer instantly, then proceeded to oscillate between locked and free as the truck and trailer bucked against each other at 60+mph. When we got stopped, the rear wheels on the trailer were locked. Had to use low range 4wd to drag the trailer to the shoulder, then spend 2 hours unfreezing the system to get moving again. All was deemed "in good working order" a few weeks prior by the local boat shop.

Similar incident pulling near the limit in my 2003 Yukon. SUV was rated at 7,800lbs, I probably had every bit of 7k behind/in it. Popped over a hill at 65mph and traffic was stopped. I nailed the brakes and locked both the truck and the trailer brakes almost immediately. As the trailer was starting to push the truck out of the way, I was able to reach down to the brake controller, and keep the trailer brakes applied as I released the truck brakes. This let me regain some semblance of control, and steer into the median to avoid the rapidly approaching trunk of a small Kia sedan.

After those two episodes, I'm convinced electric is the way to go in a recreational setting. It's not hard to setup or wire, you remove the "reactive" component, and add an additional layer of control to the mix. My AR190 setup isn't heavy enough to warrant brakes (it's on the edge honestly), but if I get a 240 in the future, I'll be removing the surge system and converting to an electric (possibly electric over hydraulic disc) in short order.

 

[suke]

You sure that's not backwards? Don't want to doubt what he said, but what you've described is exactly opposite of how these systems work. Electric is inherently linear, and surge is inherently reactive (jerky).

Actually had the conversation with him yesterday as I was replacing the whole braking system on my trailer and he happened to stop by. He felt electric wouldn't do anything and then kick on all the sudden at a higher level than needed and that surge was what he preferred. Obviously this is all personal preference. What may work for him may not be what others like.

Hmmm... There is so much here.

Regarding trailer brakes, I believe all but 190 single axle trailers have surge brakes. However dual axle trailers have the brakes mounted only on one of the two axles.
I like those brakes, you can feel those working no doubt, but like @2kwik4u said I believe the electric ones are eminently better, especially in salt water environment. At least that is what I have been told by trailer guys I talk to, but I'm curious.

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Don't really have a dog in the fight, and I even looked at what it would take to convert my surge to electric as I had to replace the whole system anyways, and it was more than I was willing to take on for a 10 year old trailer that I maybe will keep another season or so. Most of my trips will be short and within town. I'm sure there will be a few times I'll take it to the beach which is only a 2 hour drive that's not terribly populated once I get out of town.

 

[swatski]

Actually had the conversation with him yesterday as I was replacing the whole braking system on my trailer and he happened to stop by. He felt electric wouldn't do anything and then kick on all the sudden at a higher level than needed and that surge was what he preferred. Obviously this is all personal preference. What may work for him may not be what others like.

Don't really have a dog in the fight, and I even looked at what it would take to convert my surge to electric as I had to replace the whole system anyways, and it was more than I was willing to take on for a 10 year old trailer that I maybe will keep another season or so. Most of my trips will be short and within town. I'm sure there will be a few times I'll take it to the beach which is only a 2 hour drive that's not terribly populated once I get out of town.

Honestly, I see the choice of the brakes as a minor issue here. I have had good experience, so far, with the Shorlandr surge brakes and no issues with them (knock on wood). Seems that for most people as long as they work and are not rusty or inactivated with the key stuck in the coupler or other gremlins they are prone to those are just fine.
In my mind the 212x is a considerable boat, towing a 5,500lbs boat/trailer combo with a Wrangler is... a bit nuts (NOT saying I would never do it!!! lol ). There are few things more capable than those Jeep Wranglers but... designed for highway towing those are not. I have done my share of stupid things. I'll tell you, however, I'm quite glad I don't need to tow a 212x with one of those as much as I would like to own one which I don't. It is impossible to not be considered to be driving dangerously if you are towing over your max weight. As soon as you hit the road, no matter what you do, you can be considered as driving recklessly. Don't get me wrong, there is no judgement here (I have done that and far worse...) just a boater to boater advice since you posted a question.


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[suke]

Honestly, I see the choice of the brakes as a minor issue here. I have had good experience, so far, with the Shorlandr surge brakes and no issues with them (knock on wood). Seems that for most people as long as they work and are not rusty or inactivated with the key stuck in the coupler or other gremlins they are prone to those are just fine.
In my mind the 212x is a considerable boat, towing a 5,500lbs boat/trailer combo with a Wrangler is... a bit nuts (NOT saying I would never do it!!! lol ). There are few things more capable than those Jeep Wranglers but... designed for highway towing those are not. I have done my share of stupid things. I'll tell you, however, I'm quite glad I don't need to tow a 212x with one of those as much as I would like to own one which I don't. It is impossible to not be considered to be driving dangerously if you are towing over your max weight. As soon as you hit the road, no matter what you do, you can be considered as driving recklessly. Don't get me wrong, there is no judgement here (I have done that and far worse...) just a boater to boater advice since you posted a question.


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I've towed heavier with far less capable vehicles. For the most part I'll be hitting my local lake which the boat ramp is less than a mile from my house on any public road. I'd say stock, you'd be correct as the suspension is soft and the wheelbase is fairly short comparatively. With air suspension it removes that sway and sag. Total weight of 212x loaded and on the trailer is closer to 4500lbs(boat is about 3500lbs loaded with gas and stuff, trailer is 880lbs) than the 5500 lbs of the new heavier boats. Not sure what they started feeding the new ones but those things are quite a bit heavier than my 09. Tow rating for these wranglers outside of the US is about 5000lbs, and I'm well within that. No real risk. I also have an aftermarket steel bumper and the hitch is welded to. So it'd literally have to rip the back end off my jeep before it budged.

One day I may upgrade to the Jeep Gladiator if it proves worth it. However, that's still the same motor, just a slightly longer wheelbase.

 

[2kwik4u]

Actually had the conversation with him yesterday as I was replacing the whole braking system on my trailer and he happened to stop by. He felt electric wouldn't do anything and then kick on all the sudden at a higher level than needed and that surge was what he preferred. Obviously this is all personal preference. What may work for him may not be what others like.

I agree, the electrics require some tuning of the gain for each individual trailer/truck/load setup. That's a quick/easy process, however it's still a process, where a surge system is a "hitch and go" solution. I suspect the reason they have survived in the wild this long is just that, there is almost zero setup beyond hitching up and taking off. Hell U-Haul uses that system on most of it's tandem axle trailers. I'd wager that's because of ease of use more so than capability though.

I'm curious how he liked the air brakes on his semi-trailers. They have similar modulation to a good electric setup.

Don't really have a dog in the fight, and I even looked at what it would take to convert my surge to electric as I had to replace the whole system anyways, and it was more than I was willing to take on for a 10 year old trailer that I maybe will keep another season or so. Most of my trips will be short and within town. I'm sure there will be a few times I'll take it to the beach which is only a 2 hour drive that's not terribly populated once I get out of town.

Towing at or near the limit requires more diligence on maintenance, equipment knowledge, and situational awareness. I doubt you'll have any problems in your usage. Just keeping in mind for others reading that as you creep closer and closer to the limit (or cross it), your safety factor is reduced. The amount of safety factor in reserve is very much a personal preference. For some short trips, and an occasional long trip I think your Jeep will do OK. I spend on average 2.5hrs towing for each outing on the water. Because of that, I have a good deal of safety factor built into my setup.

 

[suke]

I agree, the electrics require some tuning of the gain for each individual trailer/truck/load setup. That's a quick/easy process, however it's still a process, where a surge system is a "hitch and go" solution. I suspect the reason they have survived in the wild this long is just that, there is almost zero setup beyond hitching up and taking off. Hell U-Haul uses that system on most of it's tandem axle trailers. I'd wager that's because of ease of use more so than capability though.

I'm curious how he liked the air brakes on his semi-trailers. They have similar modulation to a good electric setup.


Towing at or near the limit requires more diligence on maintenance, equipment knowledge, and situational awareness. I doubt you'll have any problems in your usage. Just keeping in mind for others reading that as you creep closer and closer to the limit (or cross it), your safety factor is reduced. The amount of safety factor in reserve is very much a personal preference. For some short trips, and an occasional long trip I think your Jeep will do OK. I spend on average 2.5hrs towing for each outing on the water. Because of that, I have a good deal of safety factor built into my setup.

Yeah that makes perfect sense. My MAX trip would be 2.5 hours and it's dead nuts flat highway and much of it is out in the middle of no where and traffic is limited. I'm super OCD about my jeep(well pretty much everything I own), maintenance included. Part of the reason I regeared with yukon gears which are magnitudes stronger than stock. I likely would have been fine towing with the stock gears, but as you mentioned when you ride at or near the limit you want to be as prepared as possible.

I had a truck prior to this, but have always wanted a wrangler unlimited since I sold my old Cherokee back in the day, and rarely used the capacity or "truck" portion.

 

[Betik]

@swatski so I take you wont approve

 

[swatski]

@swatski so I take you wont approve

Oh. That's different.
In those cases we just use the "Betik factor".

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[2kwik4u]

Oh. That's different.
In those cases we just use the "Betik factor".

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Betik Scale factor (The BS Factor)= (Quantity of things to tow / Number of miles to travel * number of red bulls to be consumed on trip + (length of tow vehicle / length of towed item) * (Number of items stacked above trailer in garage) * 0.0167/Pi)*0 + Expected

Of course this is a rough approximation and should be tested against empirical data for your situation.

 

[Zeusmotorworks]

LOL!

 

[Betik]

you do understand that BS is copyrighted material, right? Like intellectual property kind of thing.

I make a living use Betik Scale every day LOL

 

[swatski]

Betik Scale factor (The BS Factor)= (Quantity of things to tow / Number of miles to travel * number of red bulls to be consumed on trip + (length of tow vehicle / length of towed item) * (Number of items stacked above trailer in garage) * 0.0167/Pi)*0 + Expected

Of course this is a rough approximation and should be tested against empirical data for your situation.

Yes, but you also should factor-in the change in propulsion mode from his last tow vehicle/trailer combo.

It's been a big step, from this:


...to that:



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[Seadeals]

But isn’t it cheating if that Prius is converted to run on propane? Also...where’s the boat?

 

[Maccam26]

You sure that's not backwards? Don't want to doubt what he said, but what you've described is exactly opposite of how these systems work. Electric is inherently linear, and surge is inherently reactive (jerky).

Well my experience with surge brakes so far is that they are very smooth on my 190 trailer.

 

[2kwik4u]

Well my experience with surge brakes so far is that they are very smooth on my 190 trailer.

I'm glad. I think most users of surge brakes would agree that they work well enough to get the job done, and don't pose major safety risks when properly maintained and sized. I might change my mind if/when I get my own personal trailer that has them. So far my experience has been limited to trailers that were owned by others. Either rented or towing for friends. The same with electrics, I've never personally owned a set, but have towed several rented and friends trailers with them. Perhaps my experience is limited to trailers with poor maintenance/inspections on them, and the electrics tolerate that lack of care better than surge? The added capability of the electrics has saved me at least once though, so it'll be an uphill battle for me to be convinced that surge is the better solution. I think it's an adequate solution in most cases, but clearly not the best solution.

 

[suke]

I'm glad. I think most users of surge brakes would agree that they work well enough to get the job done, and don't pose major safety risks when properly maintained and sized. I might change my mind if/when I get my own personal trailer that has them. So far my experience has been limited to trailers that were owned by others. Either rented or towing for friends. The same with electrics, I've never personally owned a set, but have towed several rented and friends trailers with them. Perhaps my experience is limited to trailers with poor maintenance/inspections on them, and the electrics tolerate that lack of care better than surge? The added capability of the electrics has saved me at least once though, so it'll be an uphill battle for me to be convinced that surge is the better solution. I think it's an adequate solution in most cases, but clearly not the best solution.

That makes sense. I have the same experience you have, meaning its been someone else's trailer. This is my first trailer with surge brakes. Mine are brand new. I replaced everything including the brake lines, and will make sure everything stays in tip top shape.

 

[I know You know]

I would not be concerned about the actual towing you should be fine, but I would be concerned about steep ramps and being able to pull the 210 out of the water, I was towing my 210 with an 2015 Explorer and we had not trouble with the towing weight but we had to get help twice this summer retrieving the boat on slick ramps.

 

[suke]

I would not be concerned about the actual towing you should be fine, but I would be concerned about steep ramps and being able to pull the 210 out of the water, I was towing my 210 with an 2015 Explorer and we had not trouble with the towing weight but we had to get help twice this summer retrieving the boat on slick ramps.

You have the front wheel drive model and still had the all season highway tires on there? If so then I totally see you having trouble. I ditched the mini van tires with some nice meaty AT's. It also helps these wranglers are torque(y) little monsters down low due to them being setup for crawling rocks at low speeds. I've regeared as well to make sure snatching things like this boat out are done with ease. There are some ramps I've been to where 2wd is not recommended regardless how big of a truck you have. I've seen some 2wd full size trucks spin their tires getting smaller boats than mine out of some ramps and need help. Normally a couple people in the bed will do the trick, but have seen some need to get a tow strap out.

It definitely takes some thought going into some of these. There's one near the coast I grew up on that my parents 4wd Expedition has a hard time pulling a 2000lb boat up. For ramps like that I'll just avoid it. I've seen so many trucks struggle there over the years.

Like anything be smart, take your time, and if you don't feel comfortable....don't do it. I keep that all in mind I shouldn't have an issue. The ramps I'll be using around here are fairly flat.

 

[suke]

oh on another note, first time towing this thing the other day with the new brakes....OH man it's soooooooooo nice. Super smooth! Braking I didn't even notice the boat back there. Didn't take any extra braking effort at all.

 

[2kwik4u]

oh on another note, first time towing this thing the other day with the new brakes....OH man it's soooooooooo nice. Super smooth! Braking I didn't even notice the boat back there. Didn't take any extra braking effort at all.

I'm glad they worked for you. I think a well setup and maintained system isn't terrible.

Talking about deep/steep ramps. My wifes Traverse was absolutely terrible at retrieving the boat. It was a FWD model, and I had 3 different tires on it over the years. After the last "near sink" I said the hell with that vehicle and it never towed a boat again. We have a few ramps that are ALWAYS a pain. Cox's park near Downtown Louisville is ALWAYS covered with debris from the Ohio River, as well as a thin layer of moss. I've seen tow trucks just sit and wait on holiday weekends, lined up 2-3 deep waiting for someone to need a tow out. Similar situation at some of the Cumberland Ramps. On a busy Poker Run weekend I've seen big 3500 pickups spinning all 6 tires attempting to retrieve large high speed boats. Once those ramps slick up, it's really a crap shoot. I think a couple of those docks keep a tractor nearby for just that reason.