Aargh... Milkshake Engine Oil... WTF? (Port Engine, 2016 AR240, ~300 hrs)

[MidnightRider]

I'll throw my hat in the ring on the blower fixing hard starts while surfing. Don't know why but it does seem to help since I started this practice. Now I run my blower during any extend pulling situations not just surfing. @swatski feel for you - hope you get this resolved and it turns out not to be anything too serious.

 

[swatski]

I'll throw my hat in the ring on the blower fixing hard starts while surfing. Don't know why but it does seem to help since I started this practice. Now I run my blower during any extend pulling situations not just surfing. @swatski feel for you - hope you get this resolved and it turns out not to be anything too serious.

I'm going to check with the dealer this week. Ironically, just got an offer from Yamaha to extend my YES, lol, not thinking I'll renew.

I really want to know what happened as we will need to decide whether to keep the boat with our planned move (to a coast). Frankly, at this point I feel like almost no matter what it is I have had enough of so called "bad luck" with this one I would not want to be caught running 100+ miles offshore in this boat. But - I would keep the boat to wake surf. Well, if that is not what killed the engine.
I guess time will tell, Yamaha designed the 1.8 w/o dry sump before wake surfing became a fad, there is enough 1.8 boats surfing now to figure if that's an issue. I just don't have a whole lot of time.

If I don't get some kind of an answer, fairly soon, this boat could be heading to eBay - post a pic of clean spark plugs maybe @veedubtek will bite, lolol.

After having looked into this some more I would not be surprised if I've a cracked head, albeit most of those happen in boosted skis.
Here is one (NOT mine) that cracked and leaked around the "bung" resulting in milk shake oil (cured by a new head swap):

(again - NOT my yammie)


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[grywlfbg]

Hi @swatski I have no information to add as I was only able to put 4 hours on my boat before the season ended. However, I'm watching your thread with great interest - I'm planning to implement your surfing configuration when we start up next summer.

My only thought around it being surf-related is, wouldn't it be showing up in other's boats by now too?

Not that I wish ill on anyone, but I'm hoping you just sucked up some silt and plugged up an internal cooling port. That then lead to a hot spot in the engine, warped head, and blown head gasket, allowing water into where it's not supposed to be.

 

[swatski]

Hi @swatski I have no information to add as I was only able to put 4 hours on my boat before the season ended. However, I'm watching your thread with great interest - I'm planning to implement your surfing configuration when we start up next summer.

My only thought around it being surf-related is, wouldn't it be showing up in other's boats by now too?

Not that I wish ill on anyone, but I'm hoping you just sucked up some silt and plugged up an internal cooling port. That then lead to a hot spot in the engine, warped head, and blown head gasket, allowing water into where it's not supposed to be.

Agree, but if that turned out to be the case I would probably have no use for this boat.
Why?
As far as clogging the cooling passages possibly leading to this - that would be very bad news in a 3yo fresh water boat. I tend to boat in a mix of shallow/silty and deep fresh water pools, no weeds, some debris, and I tend to rely on the "pissers" monitoring the water flow to keep tabs on cooling - I like to see hard streams of lukewarm water shooting on the side of the boat at higher RPM. So, if having "normal" flow out of those indicators turned out NOT to be a good indicator of cooling system's performance - the hell with this boat.
And yes, I understand the cooling passages diagrams and I guess it is possible to have a localized obstruction I guess, but that would be unacceptable to me in practice. I have seen no overheat alarms leading directly to the low oil/milkshake events.

If any of the damage/cracking is due to freezing, I would have a much easier time accepting that as we had seen multiple rapid freezing weather cycles here and that can be damaging in a boat that, like mine, is not winterized.

It is to early to tell, but keep in mind wake surfing with these boats does not date back more than few years at this point, and the majority had been done with MR-1s. In my 3.5 seasons I would estimate we put somewhere between 50-100 hours surfing, all on one side. The fact that it is the surf side engine that has issues has me concerned. Hopefully we will find out one way or another if it is related.

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[ptwb]

If I missed somebody mentioning this earlier, I am sorry, but since you mention shallow, what about the surf side engine being lower and more flat and maybe it's picking up stuff easier if you happen to surf over shallow spots?

 

[swatski]

If I missed somebody mentioning this earlier, I am sorry, but since you mention shallow, what about the surf side engine being lower and more flat and maybe it's picking up stuff easier if you happen to surf over shallow spots?

Well, no, we don't surf in anything less than about 20 ft as it does not work very well. Most of my surfing is done locally in a 20-30ft deep pool in the Meramec river. We also do Bull Shoals Lake, AR, which is deep all across.

So, ironically, the last 100+ hours on this boat's engines have been run all in deep or very deep water, I couldn't find anything shallow this year if I tried to, lol. The rivers here have been continuously in flood stages throughout the year. Lake Powell and Bull Shoals were we went as well are all deep water.

In previous years, notably 2017, we have had many low water days and I would routinely glide over shallow silty bottom passages covered by few inches of water in my river - to get into deeper pools. But that would be like 4-5 oil changes ago, in my boat, come to think of it.

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[spatty99]

FWIW, Indmar actually recommends a significantly shorter oil change interval for engines used primarily for wakesurfing.

Note from Indmar - Change your oil!

The great folks at Indmar have done some fantastic work to debunk some of the "myths" around oil usage & consumption for our boats that get loaded with ballast for wakeboarding and surfing. We've had some good debates on this forum, so I hope this helps you out. Bottom line is that if you...

forum.supraboats.com

!

 

[swatski]

FWIW, Indmar actually recommends a significantly shorter oil change interval for engines used primarily for wakesurfing.

Note from Indmar - Change your oil!

The great folks at Indmar have done some fantastic work to debunk some of the "myths" around oil usage & consumption for our boats that get loaded with ballast for wakeboarding and surfing. We've had some good debates on this forum, so I hope this helps you out. Bottom line is that if you...

forum.supraboats.com

!

I'm following a similar program, actually, I always change o/f every 30-50 hours.

That said, with our jet engines (turning impellers, not props) the actual load on the engines does not differ nearly as much with speed as it does in a propped boat. In other words, the load is not much different when cruising vs plowing/surfing hence the jets rev up to max speed almost instantaneously on hole shot at WOT, very different than a propped boat. So the engines do not labor more revving high at low speed, which is the beauty of jet propulsion at least in theory.

However, some cavitation (or ventilation) during surfing activities (pumps revving up high at low speeds) could effect cooling, adversely. What I find puzzling though is the non-surf side cooling should be more compromised as the pump loading is possibly diminished and there is more cavitation/ventilation on non-surf side (with that pump's intake sticking up when the boat is listed to the surf side) as opposed to the ballasted side that has water pushed/loaded into it. But who knows?

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[swatski]

Just talked to Jerry, the owner/dealer.
Possibly good news? maybe?
They did not find anything in the engine that would explain water intrusion, I think he said they checked the head gasket and/or performed leak tests and something else was done - I'll find out more details when I pick up the boat, hopefully this week. He thinks it could had been just due to leftover water that froze inside water boxes etc. and caused some sort of backup through exhaust. He also mentioned something in the exhaust piping that was misaligned (?) that they fixed as well. I'll be traveling this weekend so if I don't get to it by Fri it may have to wait another week.

He reported they used some 40quarts of oil to flash the engine (!), they brought it up to temperature and see clean oil. He thinks this could be it! (that would be awesome but I'm going to wait w/celebrating till I take the boat out and ride in the water)

As a side note, he does not recommend Amsoil that I have been using, he said he does not think it mixes with water very well - I'm just repeating here what he tells me. He is a big advocate of Yamaha OEM oil. I'll have to give it a thought, once the current issues are solved.

My plan is to take the boat out ASAP when they are are done as he is putting together the billing etc. I'm hoping I can pick up Friday afternoon and hit the water, that would be ideal. Needless to say I'm going to report back, I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic but more cautious at this point, I'm not sure what to think. I guess I will see what they say, too. I would plan on warming up the engines and cruising for a while, checking the oil? Fingers crossed...

As always, I appreciate everyone's advice and comments very very much!

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[Spooling]

Thanks for the update Swatski! Seems unclear to me how freezing water in the waterbox could somehow get water into the oil however. Would be interested in hearing more details.

Great news so far regardless!

 

[dshscarab]

Interesting. I agree with @Spooling but, I have my fingers crossed for you.

 

[swatski]

Thanks for the update Swatski! Seems unclear to me how freezing water in the waterbox could somehow get water into the oil however. Would be interested in hearing more details.

I agree, I want to take a water test ASAP, I feel that no matter what you do cooling system water pressure on a hose could not possibly match that when running in the water at WOT. So, I'm skeptical. How did I get water in oil? but also just glad, for now, the engine does not appear to be ruined, definitely a relief. I'll be thrilled if it passes the sea trial.

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[haknslash]

Regarding the oil brand, remember that survey or whatever special promotion Yamaha ran a year or two ago regarding warranty extension or something if you used their lubricant. In the fine print they tried to )in so many lawyer ways) to say the extended warranty of that promotion would be invalid if they tested the engine oil and it be something other than Yamalube oil. I’m paraphrasing all of that but I know I did not dream up that promotion and remember seeing it discussed on here. IMO anyone should be able to use any brand oil so long as it meets the specifications they set in the owners manual. I say this all wondering what if there was some issue with the oil and it went as far as Yamaha asking for a sample and if they found out it wasn’t Yamalube....what would they do (or possibly not do in terms of warranty claim)?

Anyways hopefully your issue is just some minor water although I’m not sure how that water would get recirculated back to the crank from the exhaust box but who knows. Fingers crossed for ya!!

 

[rkim808]

Fingers crossed @swatski please keep us informed. Sounds very positive, hopefully all is well.

 

[BigAbe75]

Regarding the oil brand, remember that survey or whatever special promotion Yamaha ran a year or two ago regarding warranty extension or something if you used their lubricant. In the fine print they tried to )in so many lawyer ways) to say the extended warranty of that promotion would be invalid if they tested the engine oil and it be something other than Yamalube oil. I’m paraphrasing all of that but I know I did not dream up that promotion and remember seeing it discussed on here. IMO anyone should be able to use any brand oil so long as it meets the specifications they set in the owners manual. I say this all wondering what if there was some issue with the oil and it went as far as Yamaha asking for a sample and if they found out it wasn’t Yamalube....what would they do (or possibly not do in terms of warranty claim)?

Anyways hopefully your issue is just some minor water although I’m not sure how that water would get recirculated back to the crank from the exhaust box but who knows. Fingers crossed for ya!!

Yep. But, you’re talking 2 different warranties.

Home

yamalubeadvantage.com

this one requires service logs and receipts for product to prove that you only used their oil. (From what I remember)

 

[Patriot]

I would feel somewhat better about my cracked head being a fluke if your very similar situation turns out to be something else (hopefully also a fluke). I do recall one of the video's I saw when researching my issue was they had to get the pressure up to 80 lbs before the crack started to leak. So I think a wide open test drive is n order also. Good luck.

 

[swatski]

I would feel somewhat better about my cracked head being a fluke if your very similar situation turns out to be something else (hopefully also a fluke). I do recall one of the video's I saw when researching my issue was they had to get the pressure up to 80 lbs before the crack started to leak. So I think a wide open test drive is n order also. Good luck.

That's my thinking exactly.

I'll believe it when I see clear oil after I run her hard in the river - well, that would be fantastic. But until then, it's just a wait-and-see... My current bill is still under 1k, with all the oil and labor, I would be ecstatic if that's it!

Regarding oil, I don't know how relevant it is, obviously no one is suggesting that's a source of any issues here.
I'm completely forthcoming with the dealer about all my mods, and how we use the boat, so he can give me the best advice.
He does not think YES would necessarily be very helpful for me at this point, but it also depends what it will turn out to be, at the end.


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[Mainah]

FWIW ...
I run 4t full synthetic motorcycle racing oil which meets or exceeds the top spec from the manual and is designed for engines that run at high revs continuously. Pricey oil for sure and I change at every 50 hours. I also do my own used oil visual inspection techniques.

As for the hard restarting ... wonder if the engine being hot is at play here. If you remove the thermostat in a car in the winter it will stall within minutes when the ECM switches from rich start up to getting readings from the o2 sensors and the engine has not warmed up fast enough. Granted our cooling system is different but I have to wonder if the air quality or heat is somehow the culprit making the engine try to run too rich or lean at restart when already hot. I wonder if running on plane in the 5600 rpm range with low load after tow sports would help for those with hard restarts more than running the blower. 3 star boats have air intake pressure sensor, air intake temp sensor, engine temp sensor, thermal switch, thermal sensor, oil pressure switch, cam position sensor, and the electronic throttle body all as sensors to the ECM. 4 star engines add two o2 sensors to that. Perhaps one of our resident engine gear heads can weigh in on my thinking here.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you @swatski. Perhaps check the crankcase oil breathers too.

 

[Betik]

He does not think YES would necessarily be very helpful for me
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given his the thread has turned not to be all doom and gloom, I am tempted to make a Betik like comment about Swatski and warranty luck. But I shall resist and stay tuned for the live river update

 

[Cambo]

I agree, I want to take a water test ASAP, I feel that no matter what you do cooling system water pressure on a hose could not possibly match that when running in the water at WOT. So, I'm skeptical. How did I get water in oil? but also just glad, for now, the engine does not appear to be ruined, definitely a relief. I'll be thrilled if it passes the sea trial.

Before you drop it in if you have an infrared temperature reader check the exhaust manifold to see if you can identify a spot that is hotter than normal I posted some pictures of the breaches . With the tests the dealer did it sounds like the head is good . Run the good motor on a hose for 3 minutes and time it , measure specific points on the exhaust then repeat on the other motor . This may help identify the possibility of the exhaust manifold that could be allowing water into the cylinder and only be created during a water test . If you water test and turn up milkshake oil its back to immediate oil flush hopefully thats not the case