AR210 won't start and rough idle ***UPDATE SOLUTION***

[ToddW850]

Okay, a little background. 2007 AR210 ran flawless last year. Around November or December 2013 got ready to put her away for the winter. Changed oil and oil filters in both engines and then fogged both. Added Stabil to about 3/4 full tank. Every 2 weeks or so I'd go out and fire her up (not realizing I'm defeating the purpose of the fog). Ran a little rough I'm assuming because of the engine fog.

Today I'm getting her ready for upcoming weekend. Changed all the plugs and checked the plug gaps. Installed the NGK's.

Installed the batteries and fire up starboard engine. Turned over no problem but did not want to fire up at first. Once it fired up, it ran like total crap. Very rough then died after 10 seconds or so.. Couldn't get it fired back up. Even while it's turning over it sounded like it was running rough.

Port engine fired right up but was a little on the rough side. It still starts right up but I can tell it's running a little rough and almost sounds like it's lacking power. I ran it for 10 minutes or so on the hose. Sounds fine at idle but a little rough when I rev it.

Anybody else have this issue? Or anyone know what I'm up against?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Magic]

Im thinking that you have fouled the spark plugs..... Try changing out all 4 on one engine and see if that makes a difference..... These MR-1 engines are VERY spark plug sensitive....

Even when I have trailer problems, the first thing I do is change the plugs!

 

[ToddW850]

Im thinking that you have fouled the spark plugs..... Try changing out all 4 on one engine and see if that makes a difference..... These MR-1 engines are VERY spark plug sensitive....

Even when I have trailer problems, the first thing I do is change the plugs!

You think I fouled the new ones? Maybe because there was fog still in the engine or something else. Just curious.

I might just clean off the old ones and put them back in and see if that changes.

Funny about the trailer too haha.

 

[__ScottyDont]

I typically burn the fogging oil with my old plugs that way if they foul while burning off the oil I don't lose anything. Seems like the case here. My engines always sound terrible every spring but they get over it and wake up from hibernation eventually.

 

[Magic]

You think I fouled the new ones? Maybe because there was fog still in the engine or something else. Just curious.

I might just clean off the old ones and put them back in and see if that changes.

Funny about the trailer too haha.

It takes more than idle to burn off the fogging oil..... Not sure if its the problem or not, but its a great and easy place to start!

 

[itsdgm]

@ToddW850 I had the exact same experience this season. I've fired up my engines probably every other month of winter storage and all of a sudden I had one engine that fired right up and the other wouldn't. I tried wiggling cleanout & lanyard switches, swapping key switches and finally the second motor fired right up. I'm still not 100% sure what caused the issue though. But after several attempts and tests it finally runs smooth again. I suspect that it could have been a fuel issue with that engine that cleared once I ran a bit of gas through it.

 

[ToddW850]

Okay, I gotcha now @Magic. Kinda wish i'd left the old ones in for a bit now to burn it off.

Thanks @itsdgm Hopefully I'll have your luck.

 

[ToddW850]

I typically burn the fogging oil with my old plugs that way if they foul while burning off the oil I don't lose anything. Seems like the case here. My engines always sound terrible every spring but they get over it and wake up from hibernation eventually.

Okay, I hope that's what it is. Do you burn your's off on the hose? or on the water? I did happen to notice exhaust was thicker than I've ever noticed. DOes the fogging oil smoke when you burn it off?

 

[Boat Crazy]

Is this the first time your changed the oil? Did you put back only the amount you took out? The oil level should just be on the stick when checking before starting. If you overfilled the oil you could have soaked the air filters with oil and worth checking. I do suspect like others that the plugs may be fouled by the fogging oil since you did not burn it off.

 

[ToddW850]

@Boat Crazy yes first time I changed the oil but, but I was careful not to overfill. I put back what I took out. I checked the dipstick before I started it to see where the oil level was and both were toward the low and that's with my boat trailer slightly elevated. I did however check my air filters, just in case, and they were free of oil. EXCEPT there was still some fogging oil left over in there from when I winterized it.

 

[itsdgm]

@ToddW850 my engine did fire and run very rough at first. It cleared up after letting it sit (while I was swapping the switches out) and then it started running fine again. The first think that I did was to change the plugs out. The old ones looked good, I had same results with new ones until the issue resolved. For the record, I didn't fog.

 

[Magic]

@ToddW850 , Here is my thought process in a flow-chart kind of process......without the chart!

1. Fuel...... Treated with StaBil, possible water contamination at only 3/4 full, but StaBil should have ameliorated all but extreme condensation......
Motors ran fine on same tank of gas used last season; StaBil treated fuel within expiration time-frame. Proceed to Section 2-------->

2. Mechanical......
a) compression failure (uncommon)
b) structural failure (uncommon but very noticeable)
c) vacuum failure (rare)
d) catastrophic failure (more common on 2-stroke motors) No indication listed. Motor may not start. Proceed to Section 3----------->

3. Electrical...... Engines did start, but ran rough eliminating power lever and deck position sensors. Some electrical possibilities include:
a) partially failed ECU (rare)
b) conduction anomalies: individual coil failure, spark plug wire failure. (uncommon)
b2) ignition switch "on" setting not properly connected. (uncommon as "start" position works)
c) circuit completion failure: poorly grounded spark-plugs, poorly connected or poor conduction of spark plug boots (common) <--------TROUBLESHOOT
d) spark plug fouling or individual failure: Would produce symptoms. (common) <-------- TROUBLESHOOT



Contributing factors:

Possibility of partially burnt fogging oil remaining.

Troubleshoot for most likely cause(s):

Course of action:
1. test each spark plug cable with induction tester: FAIL--->replace cable or coil as required: PASS------> proceed to step 2
2. inspect spark plug for fouling, R&R, burn off fogging oil, replace w/new spark plugs: FAIL ------> report back with findings: PASS----->Have a great Summer!

NOTE: Clean, new looking plugs may have an internal failure not noticeable upon inspection

Report back with results for further consultation........

 

[ToddW850]

Okay, thanks for the information. Two more quick questions.

1. Anyone see issues with me pulling the plugs and cleaning them with light sandpaper? Would that "unfoul" them? Seems like I've done this years ago with my lawnmower. Will it work with the boat? Or should I buy knew plugs?

2. And is there any kind of fuel filters on these boats? I never remember hearing anyone talk about them.

 

[Scottintexas]

I don't think the sandpaper will help but don't know for sure, I would either put the old plugs back in or buy new ones (at least a set of 4 to identify if it's plugs or fuel/fogging oil.
I belive the fuel filter is in the tank at the bottom of the pick up unless someone installed an additonal aftermarket which should be easy to see.

The fact that the other engine ran a little rough also really leads me to think fuel issue or just burning fogging oil off,

Do you have a YDS and cable?
If it was me I would try to run the engines for 15-20 minutes on the hose or at the lake to see if it doesn't help before I started looking further,

 

[ToddW850]

I don't think the sandpaper will help but don't know for sure, I would either put the old plugs back in or buy new ones (at least a set of 4 to identify if it's plugs or fuel/fogging oil.
I belive the fuel filter is in the tank at the bottom of the pick up unless someone installed an additonal aftermarket which should be easy to see.

The fact that the other engine ran a little rough also really leads me to think fuel issue or just burning fogging oil off,

Do you have a YDS and cable?
If it was me I would try to run the engines for 15-20 minutes on the hose or at the lake to see if it doesn't help before I started looking further,

No YDS or cable.

Also forgot to mention I did not get any flashing error codes on my gauges.

I might just buy new plugs for one engine and see what it does. I hate it because these were brand new. But I'll run on the hose for 10-15 minutes and see if that does any better too.

 

[Scottintexas]

look into getting or borrowing a YDS, they are really cheap to make yourself if your able, it only takes on plug to make it run rough. It may not answer your question about this problem but it's good just to see what's happening in the engine,

it may just be the gap on a single plug so don't throw your new ones away it may just be an exercise of swapping them out until you find the bad one, but it takes one good running engine first to confirm,

 

[ToddW850]

UPDATE: Got home from work and out of curiosity tried starting both engines. Port fired right up (although still JUST a little rough). Starboard wouldn't. So I ran the port on the hose while I pulled all the spark plugs on the starboard. First plug I pulled did look a little black already. See photo below. The remaining 3 were very clean. Regardless, I cleaned all 4 and checked the gaps. Put them back in and not much difference. It did seem to try and run on its own a little more but I could be imagining it.

Ran port engine the whole time. No more smoke. Rev it and it still not smooth like it should.

Now here's something that might or might not be related. Been trying to narrow down a gas smell since last year. Think I just found it! See photo. But the top of my port side fuel pump seemed loose. Starboard nice and tight. But it's not the metal bracket that's loose. It's the white part. I believe this the sending unit? I could actually smell the fumes so that's gotta be it.

To add to this equation, I though my tank was about 3/4 full this winter with added Stabil. I checked with a light and looks half full now. So I might have not remembered correctly.

We had a very cold winter here with snow and freezing rain. Think I could have gotten condensation in the fuel tank?

Any body got some ideas? Think I got water in the fuel? If so, what's my next step?

 

[Scottintexas]

I would think if it was water in the fuel both engines would be acting the more similar, maybe put the plugs from one engine to another and see if the problem follows them, at least you could rule them out, it's easy and cheap,
then I would think maybe you fogged the heck out of the bad side and it still wanting to burn it off'?
maybe swap the fuel lines from the pumps to elimate them,
then I might pull the fuel pump and clean the filter at the bottom and see if the fuel seems good,

 

[ToddW850]

Okay, that's some good ideas. Storming here very bad, so I'll get back on it after work tomorrow. Thanks

 

[ToddW850]

ADDITIONAL UPDATE:

Today I went ahead and bought 4 more spark plugs. Got home and tried firing it up straight off the bat. Same results (port fired right up and starboard wouldn't). I already had the floor hatch unbolted so I removed it again. I'm going to lay these out in bullet points to make it easier.

I wanted to see if the fuel pumps were pumping fuel.
I pulled the gas lines off the top of the pumps and both had fuel primed in the hose under pressure.
I removed starboard fuel pump.
Visual inspection of the inside of the gas tank. Nothing noted.
Approx 1/2 tank of gas or less.
Used a pump and siphoned gas from the bottom of the tank into a clear jar.
Reinstalled the fuel pump.
Fired up starboard engine. It ran for 3-5 seconds and quit. Wouldn't start back up.
*Looked at gas in jar. Saw water in bottom. Realized it was from when I rinsed the jar prior and didn't dry it. DOH!
Removed port fuel pump. Didn't notice anything obvious.
Siphoned gas again into dry jar
Reinstalled port fuel pump. *Added silicone around the pump because it was loose and I belive this is where my fuel smell is coming from.
Put floor back down.
Started port engine. Again it fired right up and ran almost like it should. Still just a LITTLE rough.
Pulled all the plugs from starboard engine. Again Plug 1 had some black to it. Other 3 were very clean.
Installed 4 brand new plugs into starbaord engine.
Fired engine up. Ran very rough for about 10 seconds before dying.
Wouldn't fire back up.
Inspected the jar with the gas. Did not oberve any water.
For the heck of it, I had the wife hold down both kill switches in the clean out port tray. Same results.
I also lowered down the trailer jack to force any water that MAY be in the gas tank toward the front and away from the fuel pumps. Same results.
I'm at a loss here guys!

Anybody got any other suggestions before I take it to a mechanic tomorrow?