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Brakes - is it worth it to switch from hydraulic to electric brakes?

DJ Bellin

Jetboaters Lieutenant
Messages
49
Reaction score
27
Points
152
Location
Pensacola, Florida
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2015
Boat Model
Limited S
Boat Length
24
My trailer is now 6 years old and I am doing a complete overhaul on it. One of the major components getting replaced is the brakes, calipers etc.

I am considering switching to an electric brake system since all of the taking components are going to be replaced anyway this year.

1. What are the pros and cons of doing so?
2. Is it cost effective?

Additional background info:

My tow vehicle is a diesel 12 Ram 2500 megacab w/ brake controller that isn’t currently being used and engine brake.

I tow the boat from Maryland to Florida annually for vacation and from my house in MD to the boat launch about 15 miles each way 4-5 times a week during the boating season of approximately 12 weeks of I’m lucky.
 
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@Betik has upgraded brakes, search for his thread or maybe he will chime in
 
I'm seriously considering adding electrics to my little AR190. Just to save the tow vehicle brakes. It's an inexpensive upgrade, and beats the pants off surge brakes.

@Betik did electric over hydraulic. That's the Cadillac of braking systems for trailers. If you have the cash you won't be disappointed.
 
it is going to be around $2K for a new system. DIskbrakes on both axles, and hydrolic/electic actuator + Batteries etc. 8 hours of DIY job.

I went from one axle surge brakes to 2 axle electric over hydraulic. The difference is night and day. Like I have said, my trailer now stops the truck.
There have been a couple of incidents where I had the gain to around 4.5 ( I typically keep to 3.5) and a rather medium application on the brakes got all of our head get thrown forward. It was quite an experience to see get your body pushed forward while towing a 5,500lbs boat behind you.

I do not know if my main gain is from switching to electric or from adding brakes on the second axle. What I can say for sure is that knowing what I know today I would have changed the brakes as soon as I got the trailer instead of waiting 1 year.
 
I do not know if my main gain is from switching to electric or from adding brakes on the second axle.

I'd wager it's BOTH.

The electric is an active system, where the surge is a passive (proactive vs reactive is another way to look at it). The electric's don't have to "wait" for the load to shift forward to actuate the system, they active immediately upon pedal press.

THEN, you went and upgraded the capacity of the brakes by at least 100%, probably more with the switch to discs from drums, and adding an axle worth of braking components. Think of brakes as working with "negative torque", so you in effect increased the size of the "braking engine" by at least double.

The EOH systems are great. I think anyone that tows long distance often would see benefits in safety and peace of mind in short order with that system.

Of course I'm preaching to the choir replying to @Betik here. This was more an information post for others reading in the future. :D
 
I towed with some regularity for the high school band. They had a big trailer with surge brakes. Those went out and we replaced them with electrics. As @Betik said, night and day. Not that the surge's were bad, but the electrics are fully configurable. By adjusting the gain, you can customize your brake application to the weight of the load. Towing the empty trailer? Set it low so they barely grab. Towing the whole boat? Kick it up. Full tank and beer load? Kick it up more.

Electric over hydraulic is recommended for marine applications, not electric. Basically, the problem with electric only is you are dunking those nice electrical connections. The general consensus is that no matter how well you insulate, eventually one of those is going to get water in it and you will have a problem. Electric over hydraulic uses the electric to trigger the hydraulic piston up near the hitch, and from that point on it is just like your existing trailer brakes. So the electricals never get dunked--only the hydraulic part.

Note that electric or hydraulic over electric requires a controller in the tow vehicle. You can get that aftermarket (Curtis is a popular brand) if you don't have one stock with your vehicle.

I will seriously consider EOH when my trailer needs and upgrade. Until then, my surges work ok for my rare towing... Can't justify the expense. But boy I do want to.
 
The trailer shop told me that electric brakes for a boat trailer we’re going to be a no go because of having to dunk the trailer in water and it will create more headaches. I will ask for a quote for EOH brakes as recommended above but he told me I haven’t had brakes on the trailer that were working for a long time ( rust and water/salt damage) and if I haven’t had or noticed any issues stopping from the size of the brakes on my truck it probably wasn’t worth the additional expenses. I told him that trailer brakes are a lot cheaper than HD truck brakes and he agreed.
Thanks for the input everyone...
 
The trailer shop told me that electric brakes for a boat trailer we’re going to be a no go because of having to dunk the trailer in water and it will create more headaches. I will ask for a quote for EOH brakes as recommended above but he told me I haven’t had brakes on the trailer that were working for a long time ( rust and water/salt damage) and if I haven’t had or noticed any issues stopping from the size of the brakes on my truck it probably wasn’t worth the additional expenses. I told him that trailer brakes are a lot cheaper than HD truck brakes and he agreed.
Thanks for the input everyone...

There are modern brake systems setup for marine use. Fulton makes a set called "Sharkskin" that are coated/plated to prevent rust/corrosion issues. The also have sealed connections with generous leads to keep the user connections out of the water when dunking at the ramp.

EOH is the best you can get, and hands down the most robust. Don't write off straight electric right out of the gate. They're less expensive, and can last equally as long.

*edit*.......Just realized Fulton no longer sells those brakes. I can't find a reputable replacement in short order either. I'll keep looking as electrics are on my upgrade list for this spring.
 
The long and short of it is simply this: hydraulic surge drum brakes suck and anything is an upgrade. Electric drum brakes offer better response time and more controllability than any kind of surge brakes, but they also offer less stopping power than hydraulic disc brakes. Unfortunately, nobody makes electric disc brakes just yet (that I'm aware of). The absolute best solution is an electric over hydraulic disc brake setup. In my opinion, and I have towed many, many miles with all of the brake options on trailers ranging from 19 ft to over 40 ft, if money is a problem, upgrade to hydraulic disc surge brakes and then upgrade again to an electric coupler when you can afford to. I personally won't run any form of drum brakes on any of my own trailers at this point and particularly not on a boat trailer.
 
Great thread. Thanks for the info guys. Your timing is excellent! I've been concerned about our setup as I'm taking our boat over the TN mountains this summer. You solved my issue. If the vendor information is correct, the complete conversion kit appears to be just under $800 right now for a marine rated 1600psi system.

Installation looks easy, and the price is what I would call cheap insurance when you consider the catastrophe of a load getting away while pushing the truck downhill and maybe worse, activating/locking-up its surge brakes while compressing at the hitch giving an accordian effect fight all the way down. The peace of mind from the shortened stopping distance when driving around boneheads is nice too.



Looks like you sold me.
 
I'm quite surprised how well my surge brakes work on my shorelandr trailer. I tow my 2021 212SE with a 2020 Ford Explorer Platinum and it stops on a dime. I was impressed because I'm not a big fan of surge brakes. So far so good. I did look into the upgrade for Electric over hydraulic. Super expensive and really over kill for 21 foot boat trailer.
 
The trailer shop told me that electric brakes for a boat trailer we’re going to be a no go because of having to dunk the trailer in water and it will create more headaches. I will ask for a quote for EOH brakes as recommended above but he told me I haven’t had brakes on the trailer that were working for a long time ( rust and water/salt damage) and if I haven’t had or noticed any issues stopping from the size of the brakes on my truck it probably wasn’t worth the additional expenses. I told him that trailer brakes are a lot cheaper than HD truck brakes and he agreed.
Thanks for the input everyone...

I completely understand the advantages of the EOH upgrade over surge brakes, and in most situations they will keep wear and tear off your truck. I did want to point out though, as you well know, that if you have a load going down a mountain with that Ram and you kick the exhaust brake on as well as taking the overdrive off, that truck will almost come to a stop on its own. I had the same truck you do, (2017 Ram 2500 mega diesel) and I hauled cattle trailers and hay trailers fully loaded down some pretty steep grades with zero issues. Stopping quickly on the interstate is a different issue though, and this is where the upgraded brakes would really benefit you.
 
Exhaust brake? I know big rigs have these, but I had no ideal these were available on consumer grade vehicles until you mentioned it. Awesome. Thanks for the heads up - I learned something. For me though, its academic because we have different trucks, I have a 1500.

From the little I just looked up though, I saw a number of add-ons for diesels. It's interesting and I'll certainly keep looking to see what more I can learn. I wish exhaust brakes worked for gas engines - even one that requires 16 spark plugs like my 8cyl 5.7L. Who knows what I'll find digging deeper. Good information though. Thanks :)
 
I am not sure why “ drum” brakes came up. Mine are disk brakes on both axles. If I recall correctly 10inch. So far no signs of corrosion.
 
Great thread. Thanks for the info guys. Your timing is excellent! I've been concerned about our setup as I'm taking our boat over the TN mountains this summer. You solved my issue. If the vendor information is correct, the complete conversion kit appears to be just under $800 right now for a marine rated 1600psi system.

Installation looks easy, and the price is what I would call cheap insurance when you consider the catastrophe of a load getting away while pushing the truck downhill and maybe worse, activating/locking-up its surge brakes while compressing at the hitch giving an accordian effect fight all the way down. The peace of mind from the shortened stopping distance when driving around boneheads is nice too.



Looks like you sold me.


I will be very keen to hear you thoughts after you install them. It looks like you just changing the head unit, but keeping everything else the same. I changed everything( including lines ) and I wonder if the dow and effort was worth it.
 
I'm quite surprised how well my surge brakes work on my shorelandr trailer. I tow my 2021 212SE with a 2020 Ford Explorer Platinum and it stops on a dime. I was impressed because I'm not a big fan of surge brakes. So far so good. I did look into the upgrade for Electric over hydraulic. Super expensive and really over kill for 21 foot boat trailer.

I have a similar sentiment, I have my own complaints about the Shorelander trailer, but braking is not one of them. Provided you’re using an appropriate tow vehicle, they are entirely sufficient, even in emergency braking situations. The description about feeling like the trailer brakes are so strong that they’re stopping the truck, does not sound safe to me.
 
Exhaust brake? I know big rigs have these, but I had no ideal these were available on consumer grade vehicles until you mentioned it. Awesome. Thanks for the heads up - I learned something. For me though, its academic because we have different trucks, I have a 1500.

From the little I just looked up though, I saw a number of add-ons for diesels. It's interesting and I'll certainly keep looking to see what more I can learn. I wish exhaust brakes worked for gas engines - even one that requires 16 spark plugs like my 8cyl 5.7L. Who knows what I'll find digging deeper. Good information though. Thanks :)

Yessir, I'm not sure about the other diesels but I know the Ram 2500 and up have them. If you turn on the exhaust brake and put the truck in Tow mode, that thing will almost come to a stop going down a grade. I've had to give it some throttle before to keep it moving. I don't want to hijack the thread getting too deep into this, but just as a heads up to anyone towing with those trucks. It will work in other situations; if you're on the highway trucking along and you turn on the EB and put it in tow mode and then lift off the throttle, that truck will back itself up pretty quickly. It was my favorite feature.
 
The description about feeling like the trailer brakes are so strong that they’re stopping the truck, does not sound safe to me.

It's actually quite the opposite. Having the trailer stop the tow vehicle is a dynamically superior condition.

Think of the trailer as a mass on the end of a stick, a lollipop shaped pendulum if you will. If the braking force is coming from the tip of the handle of that pendulum you are essentially trying to balance the pendulum on the tip, and the only thing keeping the trailer behind you is the relatively low lateral forces, and the tires adhesion to the pavement. If you need to both turn AND stop at the same time, the tow vehicles greater braking capability, combined with an offset direction on the pendulum will tend to force the trailer to the side, and most likely create an oscillation. This is the same as if you're balancing that lollipop on your finger, then move the finger purposefully to the side.

Now, lets consider the same lollipop style pendulum, but hold it from center of the mass, not from the tip. The tip of the handle will naturally fall straight down, and return to straight down if you move your hand. There is no active balancing, or other interaction required, the system returns to it's naturally lowest energy state, and remains stable. This is analogous to the trailer creating more braking force than the tow vehicle. It quite literally "yanks the rig straight". A well tuned electric actuated system (full electric or EOH) will create just a touch of additional force than the tow vehicle, with it tending toward stopping it's own weight plus a small small fraction (2-3%) of the tow vehicles weight. Additionally, gain modulating brake controllers that are based on inertial measurement units (Accelerometers and gyroscopes) can help tune that balance in real time based on what is happening in the tow vehicle.

The ideal condition is that both vehicles, the trailer and the tow vehicle, brake and slow their own weight. A WELL TUNED (which I think Shorelander's is pretty well tuned) surge system will do this somewhat automatically. There is no gain to set, no testing and checking based on load. The braking force is modulated with spring in the tongue actuator, adding or removing braking force as needed. If that spring fails, or is improperly sized for the load at hand then you will either get too much or too little brake application. Also, the nature of a system with a spring, a mass, and a disturbance is to oscillate. This is when you hit the brakes hard and get a surge/release/surge/release cycle, the worse the tuning of the system, the more distinct this effect.

For me, with several years of towing experience with both surge, electric, and EOH systems. The surge is my last pick. It's the least proactive system, and has very little ability to adjust for varied loads, or driving conditions. So when I am going to choose a new system, or an upgrade to an existing system, it's at the bottom of my list and becomes an "Only if I can't work out something else". I've personally avoided accidents by having the ability to reach over and "fan the brakes" on a trailer during an emergency stop. Kept a 22ft enclosed trailer BEHIND ME when I popped over a hill at 60mph with traffic stopping and dodging into the median ahead of me. I grabbed a handful of trailer brake with a light foot on the vehicle brakes, and steered myself and the trailer into the grass and avoided a collision. That kind of proactive capability is what really makes any type of cab controlled electric system superior.

With all that said, I have no intention of downplaying the effectiveness of a surge system. Given the choice of no brakes versus surge, surge is better. Well tuned surge systems (such as those we find on Yamaha factory trailers) are actually quite good. They are well tuned, somewhat easy to maintain, and perform well in general. The reverse light lockout features is a nice touch as well, that makes it a well rounded system. If you have a good functioning surge system, there is no immediate reason to go out and replace it, especially if your tows are short and/or infrequent. Those guys that are making annual pilgrimages to FL from NY, or towing over the "big mountains" out west would see a benefit of moving to an electrically actuated system.

Again, hoping this is a general info type post, not intending to react out against @seanmclean I included his post as a quote only for context.
 
The description about feeling like the trailer brakes are so strong that they’re stopping the truck, does not sound safe to me.

can you please elaborate a bit more on this? I understand that trailer and tow vehicle being balance is best case scenario but having to choose being the truck being pushed by the trailer or the trailer "stoping" the truck, I think I would the second one is a better option. That is not to say that the truck breaking system should be neglected or anything of that sort. But given all else being equal on the truck, a trailer that has more stoping power should be preferred over one with less stoping power.
As a side-note, I have towed a brakeless trailer before and boy it is a Erie feeling when you are being pushed by the trailer and the truck can barely manage. Getting a "thrust forward " is a very comforting feeling, but I would love to hear if this actually a delusion that reality.

As far as the shore lander trailer go, this has discussion has nothing to do with OEM trailer. Mine was a 2012 and it towed fine. It took my boat from Dallas to lake Powell and south Florid with zero issues what so ever. I do not recall an y close call or particular feeling about the brakes. As matter of fact I have not noticed any difference between that trailer and my aluminum with torsion axles. When it comes to braking, it simply it is not a fair fight. Going from single surge disk brakes to dual axle disk brakes with EOH, it is just a different league. Is it worth another dumping $2k on a $3k trailer? that I am not sure. But for our family we would rather put $2K to upgrade the brakes than put $2K to upgrade the sound system on the boat.
I fully, understand that my priorities in the world tent to be rather different than rest of the world
 
I have been reading the comments and am learning a lot from you guys. Thank you for the meaningful dialog.

I stopped by my local trailer shop today to pick up the wheels and tires to take to sams club to replace the current tires with Goodyear Endurance tires x4. (Sams has 80 dollars off four of them right now so the mount balance and warranty is basically free right now).

He was showing me a problem he is having with the hydraulic actuator. He has the brake line taken apart and he can barely move the actuator. And even when he does there isn’t any brake fluid (minus a couple drops) that come out. Now I haven’t had or seen any leaks, and since I drive my truck with the engine brake on when trailering, I’m not sure if the trailer brakes have been engaging or not. I have never had a problem stopping the boat in the five years I have had the tow vehicle and boat together so it has never been an issue.

He is also finding it nearly impossible to remove the actuator to replace it. He said he isnt sure he can get it off. Is there a solonoid or something that has to be hooked up to receive an electrical input in order to engage the actuator? Is there a reason that I wouldn’t have any brake fluid come out of the line if the trailer is disengaged and we are manually trying to move the hydraulic actuator to mimic a load to engage braking? It appears to me, my mechanic is missing something. I would hate to have to replace all the brake lines, hydraulic actuator etc for no reason, however this isn’t my area of expertise.

If I have to run new lines, actuator etc would it be smarter to install a EOH setup from the beginning or do I need these part before I get to that point rectified?

This is the first time I have been to this shop and he has worked in trailers for decades but boat trailer are not his bread and butter. He seems honest and that means a lot to me. I am willing to work with him because he is honest even if he isn’t the cheapest around.

I am currently already spending a bit of money squaring away the trailer as the leaf springs needed to be replaced, the writing on the left side and lights needed to be run, the brakes rotors and calipers needed replaced, and now we might need brake lines and a new hydraulic actuator added to the mix.

Should I just look at buying a new trailer instead lol.

Any recommendations.
 
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