Engine diagnostics/tuning/chart plotter integration on late model Yamaha's?

[gmtech16450yz]

Ok I'm really not liking this NMEA 2000 BS. Why didn't they just use standard automotive OBD2 protocols? I've tried all my automotive diagnostic hardware and software including generic OBD2 readers, Yamaha's YDS1, and all the tuning programs I have just trying to read ANYTHING from the data lines in this boat. No luck. I can't even read trouble codes.

I can't even get my Simrad GO9 to read any data off the CAN network. I set up an NMEA 2000 network for the Simrad and also tried connecting it directly to the Yamaha network. It will show that it's connected to the network, but it doesn't get any data whatsoever. I'm assuming the Simrad doesn't have the correct software to read the new Yamaha's, or there's something different about the '17 1.8 CARB version of the Yamaha that's keeping it from picking up the data off the network.

So here's my question... Has anyone been able to connect to any of the newer ('15-'17) boats and successfully read engine data and/or codes? I'd like to be able to tune these engines, but I can't even get past the data reading mode much less writing mode. I know about Maptuner X, but I was quoted around $2k to be able to read and modify the ECM's on both engines. $2k??? Are they kidding? The best tuning software and hardware made for automotive applications is around $500 and it costs $100 per vehicle to have pretty much total control over hundreds of ECM tables. I wouldn't mind spending even $1k to read and modify these two engines, but I think the Maptuner X software is pretty crappy as far as what you can even do anyway. Paying $2k to only be able to change basic timing and fuel mixtures is ridiculous. Same with YDS2.0 even if I could buy it. It looks like it would be around $2k also, and all you can do is read, no tuning possibilities there. I'm not interested in spending $2k to just read codes.

Anyone have any experience or thoughts? My radical thought is to pull these Yamaha engines out and put in a couple of GM LNF turbo 4 engines. Direct Injection and variable cams that can easily be tuned to a super dependable 500 crank hp each. Hmmm. 1000hp Yamaha 212 Limited S? The sad part is it would probably only do 60mph! I'm not ready to go crazy like that, but it sure would be nice to be able to clear codes and see simple engine data with what I already have. So far I'm running blind.

 

[swatski]

@gmtech16450yz You mean - this?



Yeah, it is a pretty ridiculous I must agree (given two tuning licenses are required for a twin... at $600 a pop).

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[gmtech16450yz]

Well geez, take it out of the box and try it!
Yeah and not only would I need to spend another $600 for the other engine, evidently I'd need to pay some additional ransom to be able to edit the files myself. I'm not interested in spending all that money for a "canned" tune, I've had too much experience with those on the car side of tuning.

 

[0627Devildog]

Well geez, take it out of the box and try it!
Yeah and not only would I need to spend another $600 for the other engine, evidently I'd need to pay some additional ransom to be able to edit the files myself. I'm not interested in spending all that money for a "canned" tune, I've had too much experience with those on the car side of tuning.

Complete side note. . . .just watched the video in your signature. WOW.

 

[swatski]

Well geez, take it out of the box and try it!
Yeah and not only would I need to spend another $600 for the other engine, evidently I'd need to pay some additional ransom to be able to edit the files myself. I'm not interested in spending all that money for a "canned" tune, I've had too much experience with those on the car side of tuning.

Yep. Kind of exactly how I feel, too. EXCEPT - I lack your skills, and the existing choices are not many.

Well, let me try and see what we can get out of that MaptunerX system, I'm hoping for a vastly improved throttle response on low end - THAT IS THE GOAL. RIVA Yamaha "libraries" a full of canned tunes, but those are virtually all for SC 1.8s. Whatever I end up with will be totally custom, albeit we will start with an existing Stage 1 N/A program, probably developed by Vtech, and their N/A tunes are great. I want something SMOOTH, and reliable.

The good news is, we appear to have full support of Jesus Garcia, the RIVA new master tuner. I'll start a new thread to get suggestions and track progress, sorry I burst into yours, hope you don't mind!

My view is that, if this effort is successful (achieving few simple goals), the end result could be a couple of good, reliable tunes that will improve Yamaha 1.8 N/A experience (perhaps dramatically). The price can only go down, too, especially if there is more interest, a group buy, etc. If the price for a twin reflash w/MaptunerX and all - everything inclusive - came down to about a grand, I would not complain. But we will see.
Right now this is all hinging on what Jesus will be able to do.

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[gmtech16450yz]

Complete side note. . . .just watched the video in your signature. WOW.

Hahaha. Thanks! I feel a little bad about my youtube channel though, every couple weeks I get a new subscriber to my channel. I feel bad because I haven't uploaded anything new or exciting for my subscribers! I need to make some new videos.

swatski, (first name? Mine is John btw.)
ABSOLUTELY it's ok to "burst" into my thread. I'm all about learning and sharing, and the more information shared, the better. Knowledge is power, we all know that. Anyone who would get upset about sharing knowledge or information would be an idiot. Burst in all you want!

I'm still on the fence about the whole "tuning" part of my boat ownership. I'll put some pictures in here that shows a little of what I'm used to seeing as far as engine data goes. For me, it's really hard to be operating a couple engines and have virtually NO information on how they're running. I put a full blown Windows PC in my Sky so I could log every single time I drove it. I have almost 2000 logs and 1500 of my modified tunes from that car just with the LSA, not counting when the 500whp LNF was in it for years. I literally logged and tuned that engine everytime I drove that car. My "logs and tunes" folder which includes all of the race car and "for hire" work I've done is a 10.4GB folder with 7100 files in it! Yikes. I'm a little used to being overloaded with engine data.

But this boat might be the exception. I know what gains can be made on an N/A engine, especially one like these marine engines. It's not much. If it was a forced induction engine it would be a different story, I'd absolutely be tuning it and probably be running it on full E85 also. (Boat and watercraft guys are about a decade behind the times as far as using Ethanol goes. E85 is THE fuel for forced induction.)

So the dilemma is do I spend a PILE of money on tuning software only to be disappointed in the abilities and results of tuning these engines? It's a slippery slope, that's for sure. There's a ton of things to consider when you're talking about modifying these engines. Just one little factor of many, they have post cat 02 sensors. That's an issue when it comes to tuning. It's easily overcome in the auto world, but I doubt it's that easy in the boat world. Another is the fact that these engines are speed density systems, meaning there's no MAF. That's also a problem. And there's a whole bunch more little issues to consider. Honestly, the guys that are going straight to a Motec system are the smart ones. Either that or switching over to an automotive spec ECM. Both of those options are at least $2k though, Motec would be more like $6k to start. Then it comes down to dollars per mph or seconds of acceleration gained. I'm not sure it's really worth spending $6k to gain 5mph.


So I might actually just leave these engines alone for now, we'll see. (I'm sure I'll be eating those words someday. lol.) I did actually get Jesus's email address and was going to get in touch with him and see what we could do together. If he knows the marine side, I know a crapload of other stuff. I know we could learn a bunch from each other, but to what end? Is there really any market for tuning Yamaha jet boats? Doubtful. Is there a whole lot I could gain on my own personal boat by jumping into the marine engine tuning world with a bunch of cash out of my pocket? Also doubtful. (Sorry to be a downer! haha.) This 212 I bought is pretty fun as it is. Could I put a couple of 500hp automotive engines in it and make them work? I'm sure I could but again, what would the end result be? Probably a ton of money spent to turn a boat into something it never should be.

So for now I'm going to tell myself it's ok that I can't see a thing that's going on with those Yamaha engines. I'm still going to work on getting what's there working at it's highest efficiency, like re-pitching the port impeller or tweaking nozzle sizes and stuff like that. I will absolutely be watching what you find out on your Maptuner X experience swatski! Good luck and I hope you get some good results. If there's ANYTHING I can help with as far as the tuning goes, let me know. I will give you one piece of advice right off the bat, if you're modifying fueling, you NEED to be monitoring it constantly. Dual widebands would be my first addition if I was going to start modifying fueling. Here's a thread where I contributed about the AEM 30-300 widebands and response rates... https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?55546-AEM-30-0300-Wideband-with-direct-CAN-integration-W-VCMScanner-Need-beta-testers

Sorry for the novel guys! Once I start typing the stuff in my head just has to come out! lol. Here's a few pics of the kind of power tuners have in the automotive world... (And if HPTuners worked on these boats and you were starting from scratch with nothing, it would cost a total of $500 to tune and log BOTH engines all you wanted. Damn boat tax!)

843 Torque

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Boosttables3

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[swatski]

swatski, (first name? Mine is John btw.)
ABSOLUTELY it's ok to "burst" into my thread. I'm all about learning and sharing, and the more information shared, the better. Knowledge is power, we all know that. Anyone who would get upset about sharing knowledge or information would be an idiot. Burst in all you want!

Hi John! Wojtek here (pronounced: "voy-tek", it is a male name in Poland where I'm from). (ANd yes, I love Polish jokes).
Thanks for letting me barge-in, changing topics, I'm so bad when it comes to thread etiquette (in case you didn't notice, LOL).

But this boat might be the exception. I know what gains can be made on an N/A engine, especially one like these marine engines. It's not much. If it was a forced induction engine it would be a different story, I'd absolutely be tuning it and probably be running it on full E85 also. (Boat and watercraft guys are about a decade behind the times as far as using Ethanol goes. E85 is THE fuel for forced induction.)

You are correct. I've spend a lot of effort with Vtech Maptuner 1 and that is exactly what I have learned: gains on top are not impressive and take a lot of massaging, re-pitching, revving faster, and what not. Basically, without the boost to play with - there is just not much that can be improved on top. However, the low end is a different story!

I spend most of my time doing water sports, and that throttle response curve in my new Yammie is not satisfying, to say the least. I know it can be improved, vastly. Right now, when ramping up to speed I feel like I'm operating a rental I/O, kid you not. Granted, once an aftermarket cruise control (Ride Steady or Perfect Pass) take over it is no longer relevant, but up to that point - it really makes a huge difference.

The key will be to tune the ECU to optimize throttle movement range such that there are no dead-zones and no play, at least past the second "detent" when the buckets are up.

I do not know what the E-Series throttles work like. I considered switching to those, but determined it would be just too much money and effort, it would make a lot more sense to buy an E-boat. I know they are smooth moving (levers) but I doubt Yamaha programs ECUs different, so I would have the same dilemma.

So the dilemma is do I spend a PILE of money on tuning software only to be disappointed in the abilities and results of tuning these engines? It's a slippery slope, that's for sure.

This is all about what the goals are!
If the goal is speed - I would NOT be doing it with a N/A 1.8 Yamaha.
Besides, I find 50mph I get pretty consistently with the twin - completely satisfying.

There's a ton of things to consider when you're talking about modifying these engines. Just one little factor of many, they have post cat 02 sensors.

That maybe an issue specific to the CARB boats. I'm sure it must have been addressed on greenhulk with skis, Jesus would know for sure. My boat happens to be a non-CARB - so no O2 sensors (that I know of!).

Honestly, the guys that are going straight to a Motec system are the smart ones. Either that or switching over to an automotive spec ECM. Both of those options are at least $2k though, Motec would be more like $6k to start. Then it comes down to dollars per mph or seconds of acceleration gained. I'm not sure it's really worth spending $6k to gain 5mph.

I looked at everything. I'm not looking for any major gains at WOT, just smoothing things out. The MaptunerX is (should be) ideally suited for that.
If Jesus can help and we come up with a smooth awesome tune, I'll be happy. I will not be surprised if I get gains across the curve including on the top BUT - the low-end is where I'm looking for improvement. Smooth and powerful starts, great mid-range with more torque, and improved fuel economy. Those are the goals, i that order.

IMPORTANTLY - the ability to change the tunes and always be able to switch back to the backup/original files is a huge plus of the Vtech. Depending on fuel availability and so on. The MaptunerX is fast, too (unlike Maptuner 1).

Could I put a couple of 500hp automotive engines in it and make them work? I'm sure I could but again, what would the end result be?

It could be a disaster, frankly. To start with, it would need serious intake tunnels' enforcements which would otherwise crack under too much pressure. And the list would go on. I don't think these hulls would do well much above 50-60mph.

I'm still going to work on getting what's there working at it's highest efficiency, like re-pitching the port impeller or tweaking nozzle sizes and stuff like that.

That has been awesome - what you have done, already. I'm actually planning on getting to my intake grates to mod them as you did. Keep us posted!

I will absolutely be watching what you find out on your Maptuner X experience swatski! Good luck and I hope you get some good results. If there's ANYTHING I can help with as far as the tuning goes, let me know.

I'll start a new thread and hopefully get some feedback and discussion.

I will give you one piece of advice right off the bat, if you're modifying fueling, you NEED to be monitoring it constantly. Dual widebands would be my first addition if I was going to start modifying fueling.

ABSOLUTELY NO fuel mods in my future with this boat. Zero.
Good point though.

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[GiddYupJoe]

I’m glad @swatski found another friend that talk his language!

 

[Brian Millette]

Has any one simply displayed engine data on thier GPS. Panning on installing a Gen 3 Lowrance HDS.
Thanks for any help.