I want bigger displacement engines ! C'mon Yamaha the 1.8s are dinosaurs at this point !

[biffdotorg]

Dunno about #4 (bass boats have that same look and a not many ladies on them.


Interesting parallel though. That is a relatively high torque low rpm motor (compared to to our 1.8L's) coupled to a jet drive.

Wondering if the relation between cylinder head size/block size and torque production is another driving force. Keeping the prime mover relatively small and light helps with packaging and power/weight in comparison.

You hit the nail on the head with the last line. Yamaha will not produce an engine they cannot utilize in more than one platform. And since what they have now resides in PWC and boats, I think they are making a good business case out of not moving to anything larger. For the same reason SeaDoo released the Switch with shared controls, engines and accessories.

 

[suke]

Moral of the story here is that (aside from noise) a low displacement high revving engine combines really well with an axial flow pump and nozzle setup. This also leads to a dead simple driveline which is also a benefit for a marine application. I would be really curious to hear how fuel consumption has changed for someone that has moved from a 360hp (twin 1.8L) jet application to a 360+ hp V-Drive application. My guess is that, in general, the fuel consumption is relatively close.

That is going to vary by the activity. Just cruising around it's probably close. However, once you get into activities like surfing that's where they're going to differ. At 6k+ RPMs it's nearly 21 GPH. For the Raptor 6.2L at surf speeds it's 5 GPH. So it's 4x worse in GPH.

 

[Enduro900]

Understanding the naming convention will help you with this.

Any of the Yamaha boats ending in a 5 already have the SVHO motors. So your wish has been granted already. 195/255/275 As stated in a previous post, it has yet to trickle down to the 21 foot models. As it just trickled down to the 24 footers in 2021, as the 25' 255 series.

If and when it hits the 21' boats, it would more than likely be a 215 model, as they get the advancements first in the 215x/215s or 215ss if ever produced. That hull is also due for a re-design. So it would not be a surprise to see this all change for 2023.

Back to what Julian said, Yamaha is not looking to compete on the top end performance. They are adding it to the boats that needed it to maintain overall performance. The 190 series needed more power, that the 192 did not deliver on. The larger 275, needed a boost out of the gate. And folks would have not bought in on the 25' hull if the bigger power SVHO were not at least an option.

So many are pleased with the performance of the 240/242 series, it's a tough sell to go with a new 25' boat if it had less performance. Albeit small. So they offered both, and I think that is a smart play on their part.

Just like cars and trucks, you can't offer all the goodies to each model line. You have to save something for an owner to lust after. And until you get to the top of the food chain, you will keep lusting. Yamaha is playing the game proper by releasing the most sought after goodies for the top of the line and then trickling down. It creates brand loyalty.

Well for a lot of us we dont wakesurf, so i dont need a 255 or the 100K price tag…..

My suggestion was a special 21ft and 252-ish model with the SVHO engines. The SVHO adds like $3k-$4k to each ski, why Yamaha packages it and adds $30-$40k on boats that start at $60k is getting ridiculous.

Frankly i can build a 243 VR Chap/Vortex with a pump out head, 600HP option with BRP’s throttle-by-wire with 5 modes standard for in the low 70’s without a tower (which we dont care about).

Do i need 600hp? Well i want a boat that when full of people and gear isnt straining to take-off and can still water ski without feeling like we need to take some people to shore. I havent driven the 252/360hp’s but I’ve heard they are a bit sluggish comepared to the 242 series boats. Yamaha already has the 300hp waverunners so why not??

And yes its fun to hammer the throttle every once and a while at 20mph and have to hang on to about 45mph……and then once in a while on a smooth lake with the room to hit 55mph for a few seconds…..

I dont think anyone is questioning what Yamaha is doing: its clear their profit in this segment is climbing and they are selling every boat they can make, so kudos to those calling their shots. This is a thread about what we’d LIKE to see……if Scarab and Vortex did a better job of marketing Yamaha might not have such a dominant position (BRP leads PWC market, and I’ve now picked up a 2012 Challenger 210SE, which has better low-speed and reversing control, throttle-by-wire with 5 distinct modes (YES BRP brought throttle-by-wire to market starting in 2010, I have one-over operation with auto sync) and is a very impressive boat for being 9-10 model years old…only the top-of-the-line Yamaha’s have anything near this control technology. For those that spend in the $40k-$65K range with Yamaha?? “Too bad for you, you can sweat docking peasants OR cough up another $20k-$30k.”

So yeah Yamaha can keep with their current direction…and someday maybe someone comes along and cleans their clock market-share wise.

Take a look at the BRP switch…..the docking modes and IBr (intelligent braking) are standard along ALL of the lineup……you dont have to buy some ridiculous $30-$40k package for added control and safety………

 

[biffdotorg]

This conversation is getting humorous for sure. You know why I bought a Yamaha after selling my SeaDoo, Seadoo could not cost-effectively make boats anymore. It wasn't an option, and honestly, I had a Yamaha in my sights anyway.

They have to be profitable, or they stop. And that's exactly what they did. Sold off the intellectual property, boat molds and setup an engine supplier agreement to those that thought they could do it better. And yup, some are still around, and others have already shut down after realizing BRP shut it down for a reason.

So when someone comes up with a profitable way to put out this crazy HP boat to the "mid market", I'm sure it will come up. But for the same reason you didn't buy that 600hp boat, a guy has to realize, the market needs buyers to produce such an animal. And Yamaha has stated, that is not their market.

 

[Farny]

Make them quieter. That is all I want!

Anyone come up with some ways to dampen the sound a bit on these puppies?

 

[DogDadDave]

As others have said, the market probably doesn't indicate the juice being worth the squeeze to upgrade the 21ft to supercharged engines, especially on the older 21ft platform that will likely be replaced in the next couple years. They also won't put something in that they don't use in their waverunners.

I wonder what the take rate would be on expanding the supercharged engines across the 25ft lineup. With the AR190 to AR195 difference being $6200, I would think they'd charge around a $12,400 difference for the twin engine models.

 

[Neutron]

As others have said, the market probably doesn't indicate the juice being worth the squeeze to upgrade the 21ft to supercharged engines, especially on the older 21ft platform that will likely be replaced in the next couple years. They also won't put something in that they don't use in their waverunners.

I wonder what the take rate would be on expanding the supercharged engines across the 25ft lineup. With the AR190 to AR195 difference being $6200, I would think they'd charge around a $12,400 difference for the twin engine models.

Now you are going to see an ar250 or sx250 go to 78000 ish..... not going to happen. The ar and sx are the budget 250 series.
They are already priced very high for the no frills you get

 

[blackfx]

Anyone come up with some ways to dampen the sound a bit on these puppies?

Layers of different sound deadening in the engine compartment and other hatches. Stuff foam throughout the stern compartment where the muffler is and along the gunwales. Plastic wear rings.

 

[Farny]

Layers of different sound deadening in the engine compartment and other hatches. Stuff foam throughout the stern compartment where the muffler is and along the gunwales. Plastic wear rings.

Foam in the stern? Will it stay dry? Forgive my ignorance- What / where plastic wear rings?

 

[2kwik4u]

Now you are going to see an ar250 or sx250 go to 78000 ish..... not going to happen. The ar and sx are the budget 250 series.
They are already priced very high for the no frills you get

I think the SX250's and AR250's will stick with the less expensive engines. You can already get a 252 with the SVHO engines if you want them. Same with the FSH series. You'll have two options there.

Keep in mind you get more than just the engine when you move from an AR190 to an AR195. Trim and feature set both increase, and honestly at $6.2k for the upgrade it's a relative bargain.

Adding the SVHO's to the 21ft range really is the next logical step. Helps with absorption of the SVHO cost over a wider range of boats. Some will take it (like the 212X and 212SD boats), and some won't (like the AR210's)

 

[biffdotorg]

I think the SX250's and AR250's will stick with the less expensive engines. You can already get a 252 with the SVHO engines if you want them. Same with the FSH series. You'll have two options there.

You mean the 252 with SVHO is the 255, is that what you meant? As the 252 is NA 1.8ltr engines.

 

[2kwik4u]

You mean the 252 with SVHO is the 255, is that what you meant? As the 252 is NA 1.8ltr engines.

Yea, I'm not completely fluent in 2022 Yamaha Model numbers yet

Intention was to point out the 25ft'rs with the SVHO that are available (and costly) as well as the 25ft'rs with 1.8L's that are available (and slightly less costly). I think the 21ft will go this same route. 212's will be 1.8L's and the 215's will be the SVHO motors. With the 210's having the TR-1's.

Somewhat surprised as I write this that there isn't something like a 191 with the TR-1 in them. Yamaha could easily back up to a really inexpensive no frills boat with a TR-1 powered 19ft that has very few options.

Also, Sitting here wondering if we'll ever see a 3-jet 27ft with tri-Tr-1's.......or supercharged Tr-1's in a 21ft??! I need to research the Yamaha lineup of ski's a bit more to see what kind of "parts bin raiding" we could do

 

[mwalker4]

Yea, I'm not completely fluent in 2022 Yamaha Model numbers yet

Intention was to point out the 25ft'rs with the SVHO that are available (and costly) as well as the 25ft'rs with 1.8L's that are available (and slightly less costly). I think the 21ft will go this same route. 212's will be 1.8L's and the 215's will be the SVHO motors. With the 210's having the TR-1's.

Somewhat surprised as I write this that there isn't something like a 191 with the TR-1 in them. Yamaha could easily back up to a really inexpensive no frills boat with a TR-1 powered 19ft that has very few options.

Also, Sitting here wondering if we'll ever see a 3-jet 27ft with tri-Tr-1's.......or supercharged Tr-1's in a 21ft??! I need to research the Yamaha lineup of ski's a bit more to see what kind of "parts bin raiding" we could do

A 19' with a TR1 might not be able to get on plane . Put two in there and I would buy it.

 

[blackfx]

Foam in the stern? Will it stay dry? Forgive my ignorance- What / where plastic wear rings?

I got a bunch of closed cell foam from my work. Some type of packaging material for large items. That area's dry in my boat but it wouldn't matter if it got wet. The wear rings are in the impeller housing instead of the metal liners in the Yamaha ones which are back ordered for a long time. I thought my boat was loud just from the engine but when I put the plastic wear ring in it became way quieter so alot of the noise must have been coming from the pump.

 

[Neutron]

Doubt you will ever see a 215 with a svho engine. The 212 already is the fastest boat in the line up. Even a 222 with duel 1.8s will still be quite fast so that will be Doubtful with svhos as well.
To see the 255 is welcome since the 252 lost speed for the added weight, more fuel capacity and 6 inch longer, etc...

 

[DogDadDave]

I think the SX250's and AR250's will stick with the less expensive engines. You can already get a 252 with the SVHO engines if you want them. Same with the FSH series. You'll have two options there.

I think it would be reasonable for them to expand the SVHO engines to more of the 25ft series, even if it's just the SE and SD. Currently they're limited to the wake series. For people who don't want a neon green or blue boat and all their storage taken up by hard ballast tanks, there is no SVHO option, unless they want to move up to the 27ft boats. To move from a 252SE to a 275SE is a $40k difference, plus trailer, and the 275 series is considered an oversized/wide load in most states.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think it would be reasonable for them to expand the SVHO engines to more of the 25ft series, even if it's just the SE and SD. Currently they're limited to the wake series. For people who don't want a neon green or blue boat and all their storage taken up by hard ballast tanks, there is no SVHO option, unless they want to move up to the 27ft boats. To move from a 252SE to a 275SE is a $40k difference, plus trailer, and the 275 series is considered an oversized/wide load in most states.

100% agree. I think Yamaha could increase overall take rate on the SVHO by including it in more boats. Like the 212S instead of the 212X, still get the current highest output engine available with the hull, but no ballast.

 

[Skierdad]

I will preference this with a) I am no engineer and b) not an expert in jet boat mechanics.

I am leaning towards the original post. I wished my AR195 had a bit more snuff in it. I could be completely ignorant because I lack a mechanic or jet propulsion understanding but I equate it to this..... I could buy a Chevy pickup with a 305 in it or a 350. I feel like my AR195 is the pickup with the 305 in it and I wished there was an option for the 350.

what would be reasonable hp for an AR195? Maybe a 250 hp option? I guess if I could "dream" it, then a 250 hp option that still topped the boat out around 45-50. I am not looking for speed, but a bit more torque on the front end.

FYI- If you remember when Chevy pickups were either a 305 or a 350, then you might be in my age bracket. lol

 

[biffdotorg]

what would be reasonable hp for an AR195? Maybe a 250 hp option? I guess if I could "dream" it, then a 250 hp option that still topped the boat out around 45-50. I am not looking for speed, but a bit more torque on the front end.

Just curious if you should be shopping for power upgrades. Some unscrupulous snakeoil salesman is going to take your money and assure you that you will have 250hp afterwards

BTW, do you have Venmo? I can assure you that you will have that 250hp you are wishing for. You let me know.

 

[Skierdad]

Maybe I am reading this wrong but it seems you are making fun of me. Sorry, I don't even know what Venmo is.