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[I_squared_r]

I agree with @HangOutdoors . Judging by my conversation with my employer, I suspect that he may have used my location when considering my salary. My purchasing power doesn't change too much depending on my location. Where I am living in Brazil: housing, services, and certain goods are cheap. Other things are very expensive (try buying a vacuum or a car ) basically any good that isn't manufactured here is very expensive. For example, iPhones are still priced according to American's purchasing power and the Brazilian reais has a bad conversion. And to make it worse, the taxes on certain goods are very bad.

I grew up in a large city and this is a big change for me. I'm 2 hours from Rio de Janeiro in a small city that everyone knows each other. It's funny that in just a few visits with my physical therapist, I know everything about his life, his wife, etc. And then I inevitably know all the drama that goes on in people's lives. I can't go anywhere without seeing people that I know. It's a fun change from my big city roots, but I can see it growing old. I wouldn't want to stay here forever so I'm looking for the next chapter and I'm hoping that my salary can support where ever that is, whether its florida, california, colombia, europe, or whatever

 

[HangOutdoors]

Bottom line, and I just had this same conversation with my daughter as she is switching jobs, it is none of the employers god damn business what your expenses are, where you live and how you spend your money. Pay you for the job they are offering or move on. My daughters boss told her, when she asked for a raise, that he would offer to look at her "finances" and how she spends her money because she may not need more money to live.

It is the same thing any way you look at it.

I would love to live in Birmingham which is 4 miles from me but the home prices are double, and mine are not cheap at all to begin with, almost $280 per sq. ft. Should I ask for more in my salary because I want to move into a higher end area? 4 miles, 4 states or even another country. It is none of their business. Or let the CEO know that I moved to Detroit and he can pay me now 30% less?

 

[swatski]

If you want my opinion, do not think like that. For instance. I have a range for a developer, lets say for the sake of argument it is $110k-$130k. Depending on skills and languages. That wage gets paid regardless of where you live even if you are working remote. That is what I have budgeted for and have been allocated. I am not going to hire a developer from the upper pennisula in the sticks where the cost of living is low and pay them $70k because I can get away with it. That is not how I do business nor any company I have worked for. If I hire someone out of Manhattan, the wage is the same as well. Take it or leave it. I am paying for a skillset based upon our business model.

Wages should be based on the talent and the business model.

Do not discount yourself based on geography.

Great thread.

It would depend on the type of business. Writing code is one thing, re-designing a building you have never been in, it's another - what's your perspective?

In jobs like mine, many things can be performed remotely, that does not mean it is ideal. Those remoting do not benefit from personal interactions.
Myself, I could remote, but I don't. I'm in the office every day including most weekends. "Boots on the ground" kind of a thing, it's inconvenient but I don;t miss out much, and been glad more than once.

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[HangOutdoors]

Great thread.

It would depend on the type of business. Writing code is one thing, re-designing a building you have never been in, it's another - what's your perspective?

In jobs like mine, many things can be performed remotely, that does not mean it is ideal. Those remoting do not benefit from personal interactions.
Myself, I could remote, but I don't. I'm in the office every day including most weekends. "Boots on the ground" kind of a thing, it's inconvenient but I don;t miss out much, and been glad more than once.

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I agree with you it depends on the model. I actually work in a Hybrid model where I am in the office 3-4 days per week, since Covid, and home the other. We also have jobs in other departments that require people to be onsite working with a product. What these times have shown us is that it is possible to trim hard costs and reward staff compensation as well as increase staff size. When we are in the office, I bring the whole staff in to get the interaction and interactivity that it brings. Everyone works remotely on Friday, unless servers have issues or maintenance is planned.

I guess what got me going, was different pay scales for the same job because they knew they could justify it based on locale or at the very least get away with it. I would assume that they don't charge less for your work vs. someone whom lives in California?

 

[I_squared_r]

My daughters boss told her, when she asked for a raise, that he would offer to look at her "finances" and how she spends her money because she may not need more money to live.

Wow! I'd have some colorful language for an employer that wanted to look at my finances!

Great thread.

It would depend on the type of business. Writing code is one thing, re-designing a building you have never been in, it's another - what's your perspective?

In jobs like mine, many things can be performed remotely, that does not mean it is ideal. Those remoting do not benefit from personal interactions.
Myself, I could remote, but I don't. I'm in the office every day including most weekends. "Boots on the ground" kind of a thing, it's inconvenient but I don;t miss out much, and been glad more than once.

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Fortunately my job never requires site visits and there are people available for that. 99% of my work is new construction and the 1% existing construction we request as-built drawings and the manager goes on site to review. I am more productive at home when I don't have coworkers interrupting me.

 

[swatski]

I am more productive at home when I don't have coworkers interrupting me

Oh, I can relate to that! lol
Your perspective however may change once you're tasked with running the whole crew, when you become the mover and shaker; hard to do it well without being able to be hands-on/in person, at least on occasion.
Brazil being only 2 hrs ahead of NYC is very convenient though.
We have partners/contractors in Russia and South Korea, can make zoom meetings interesting.

 

[I_squared_r]

Oh, I can relate to that! lol
Your perspective however may change once you're tasked with running the whole crew, when you become the mover and shaker; hard to do it well without being able to be hands-on/in person, at least on occasion.
Brazil being only 2 hrs ahead of NYC is very convenient though.
We have partners/contractors in Russia and South Korea, can make zoom meetings interesting.

We're usually just 1 hour ahead. The president here got rid of daylight savings time. Doesn't matter anyway because my mind still functions in EST while the rest of brazil is in BRT.

 

[2kwik4u]

Interesting conversation here. @HangOutdoors and @swatski both make great points.

We have a slightly different approach to pay where I'm at. We don't look directly at total compensation as a first guess on what it takes to move an employee into our area. In manufacturing it's very often a "must be present to win" sort of game. Just have to be here to effectively make decisions, enact change, or fight fires. When we hire in new from other locations we look at relative buying power. If a guy is making $150k in NYC he's not gonna get $150k here. We'll look at things like CPI across the geography and make that person an offer to maintain or increase relative standard of living. It protects us as a company from overpaying for talent, and ensures the new hire isn't making a downgrade to come work for us. We want happy, engaged employees, and you don't get that if they're worried about making rent, or have other financial issues at home.

I'll throw out another detail that I'm very certain @I_squared_r is aware of.....total compensation package can be huge and salary low. Don't miss this or fall for it. I initially fell for this. I moved from an $90k salary position to a $62k salary with On Track Earnings after bonus of $92k. On my W2's I made $95k that first year.....HOLE-EE-CRAP was cash flow a problem. The difference came.in a semi annual bonus tied to a number of metrics and my bring home pay was a giant adjustment for the household. That was 4 years ago. My pay and bonus structure has been adjusted now and it's a much better situation. Likewise, the total package is much better overall. We're an ESOP company, and my account has grown faster than any 401k match I've ever seen. So in some respects I'm glad I "fell for it", but shew buddy it was a rough couple years in there.

 

[HangOutdoors]

We are an ESOP company as well. Unfortunately the ESOP stock is fiction until fully realized, unlike a 401k or other investment account. If a company goes under the stock is worthless. You can't move it or sell it or personally own it like a stock you buy, like Ford or GM. Additionally it is all based upon valuation at any given time of the company which is done by a third party once per year. Yes they can be very rewarding, but there are a lot of pitfalls. You cannot cash the stock out when you want. It is paid out over usually 5+ years after leave the company and wait 5 years for it to begin or when you retire. Furthermore at anytime, if the company has a bad year they can choose to segregate your stock giving you the lower value and putting that in an account where it stops growing and you get a significant less amount, which will ALWAYS happen if you seperate from the company, since it is a smart financial decision for the company. It has happened where, even larger companies, file BK, or get sued or the markets changes and the ESOP everyone has is now worthless. ESOP Stock has no tangible value, it is a promise to maybe pay something at some point in the future based upon what the company may be doing at that time, with mechanics that the Company can reduce that substantially based upon the ESOP guidelines and whats most advantageous to the company if you seperate and move on.

ESOP's are great ideas, and can give you something for nothing, but if you are relying on it without other investments or a 401k, it could go very bad for your long term financial picture.

Personally I prefer matching, bonuses, increased salaries, hard stock options, vacation time, etc. Things that I can control and are under my control.

 

[2kwik4u]

@HangOutdoors You are 100% correct. ESOP isn't perfect, and there are a lot of pitfalls. One should never put all eggs in one basket. With that said, it grows faster than any 401k Match I've been in for the last 20yrs, and I've had some decent ones where I put in 7% and get an additional 10% from the match.

The best option there is to be in a publicly traded company and get stock options as part of the compensation package. have a friend who works for a tech company out of MountainView. he is very generously paid, and gets stock options on top. he cashes out every year or two, moves a big chunk to a personal retirement account, and then buys something fancy with the rest. Got an S6 a few years ago that's really nice. Those kind of benefits are, indeed, better than an ESOP.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@2kwik4u ESOP are nice, don't get me wrong. But most don't understand how they work and people get disappointed and feel like they have been sold on something. When they do pay out they are great.

 

[mwalker4]

Go on linked in, build your network. Get in the conversation with head hunters. As one of my old employees / friend would tell me: I was looking for a job when I found this one. If your current situation doesn't make you happy, change it. The world is pretty fluid out there. Companies do pay you different based upon where you live, sometimes it makes sense, but for remote jobs it doesn't make sense at all. My wife works for Microsoft remote and we live in Ohio. If she lived in Seattle, she would make more doing the same job. Doesn't make sense to me, but it is still a very good situation so we don't complain.