Not another subwoofer ? And stereo talk (sound video clips)

[CraigAR]

Ok ok, I know this has been talked about many many times but I'm throwing it out there again. This past weekend I went out on the boat and met up with my buddy that was in his cc bumping his system and I thought it sounded really good. He has some lower grade 6.5 and some kind of sub in his. Now my system is super loud but I feel like I'm missing the fullness of a subwoofer. My system consist of (6) wet sounds xs650's hooked up to a wet sounds htx-6 amp and a pair of Wet Sounds icon 8's hooked up to a rockford fosgate m400-4 bridged. I'm thinking about changing the htx-6 amp for another amp that can power the (6) 6.5's and a sub, would like to stay wet sounds if possible. So my question is 1; can that setup work 6 speakers and a sub or should I just keep the htx-6 and get a new amp for the towers and sub. 2; sub placement and style. The system is ran with 4awg now. I am not afraid to cut out a location for the sub but I do not want to lose my cooler space on the starboard side. Thanks in advance.

 

[swatski]

Ok ok, I know this has been talked about many many times but I'm throwing it out there again. This past weekend I went out on the boat and met up with my buddy that was in his cc bumping his system and I thought it sounded really good. He has some lower grade 6.5 and some kind of sub in his. Now my system is super loud but I feel like I'm missing the fullness of a subwoofer. My system consist of (6) wet sounds xs650's hooked up to a wet sounds htx-6 amp and a pair of Wet Sounds icon 8's hooked up to a rockford fosgate m400-4 bridged. I'm thinking about changing the htx-6 amp for another amp that can power the (6) 6.5's and a sub, would like to stay wet sounds if possible. So my question is 1; can that setup work 6 speakers and a sub or should I just keep the htx-6 and get a new amp for the towers and sub. 2; sub placement and style. The system is ran with 4awg now. I am not afraid to cut out a location for the sub but I do not want to lose my cooler space on the starboard side. Thanks in advance.

Watching this!

So many options, I'm still not convinced what is the best of the best. Read them all...
My (temporary?) solution has been a powered infinity basslink sub, which is pretty nice for the price although being mounted inside the helm compartment makes it sound better when the system runs at higher volumes - that woofer comes alive and starts paring with the speakers (10 DB651s and 2 ICON8s).
When listening at low volumes, for example sitting in a quiet cove and not blasting the stereo, an exposed subwoofer would most likely be nicer.

Seems to me the JL M10 IB5 (exposed grill, but in a small enclosure! sic) may be about the best option for a system running on a standard dual battery etc. What are your thoughts?

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[Jaylex]

With all those mids and highs I can see why you want some low end bass to round it out....do you know if you want to go Infinite baffle or use a box? That would likely dictate the amp choice.

Random but why do you wanna swap out the HTX-6, specs look solid....

I run JL like a bunch of others...almost went with a 1000/5 which would be a good option for you depending, but might need to figure out what kind sub you want to run....my vote is a 10 or 12 in a enclosure.

 

[swatski]

do you know if you want to go Infinite baffle or use a box?

I know you are not asking me... But the thing is (and it's not really obvious) - the infinite baffle such as the JL M10 IB apparently works super duper great in a small enclosure. May not reproduce as nicely but it becomes very potent. Makes me wonder!

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[Jaylex]

@swatski random but where did u fit your 2 extra 6.5s....you have 10?

The JL IB seems to be the sub of choice, but I haven't had the chance to hear some of the better tuned IB setups.

 

[swatski]

@swatski random but where did u fit your 2 extra 6.5s....you have 10?

The JL IB seems to be the sub of choice, but I haven't had the chance to hear some of the better tuned IB setups.

Please see my edited comment above - about the enclosure for an IB. That is good info (no bs) as it has been confirmed, at least in part, by @David Analog.

I have 2 in the bow, 6 in the cabin and 2 in swim platform. I'll find the link with pics.

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[CraigAR]

With all those mids and highs I can see why you want some low end bass to round it out....do you know if you want to go Infinite baffle or use a box? That would likely dictate the amp choice.

Random but why do you wanna swap out the HTX-6, specs look solid....

I run JL like a bunch of others...almost went with a 1000/5 which would be a good option for you depending, but might need to figure out what kind sub you want to run....my vote is a 10 or 12 in a enclosure.

I'm debating if I'm going to go IB or use an enclosure. I would like to get some deep bass but placement is key. I do not want to flex the outer hull or get unnecessary rattling. I'm playing with the idea of installing a 12" IB sub in the starboard side storage and installing a divider from the floor to the bottom of the seat to get the appropriate air volume and then lining everything with dynomat. But, on the other hand, if I get an enclosure I can play around with its location to find the best sound and then cut in a vent. I don't think I've seen on the forum a 12" grill/ vent cut in under the seat storage. I was thinking about using the htx-6 on the towers and sub and possibly buying a new amp with a little more power for the (6) 6.5's. The htx-6 is giving them 100w rms now but I believe they can handle a little more power.

 

[Mainah]

IMO best for low volume sealed enclosure is Polk MM. Best for non sealed small of large is JL or Wetsounds IB. On the later you could install under the co captains cup holders. IB should not flex the hull because they don’t need the back pressure. IB don’t sound quite as good but only a small difference over sealed and a great compromise for a boat.

@swatski Don’t you have a mixer? Does that thing have a sub level channel? I have the same issue with not feeling the bass at lower levels and determined it to be the low powered pre outs on the polk head unit and lack of dedicated sub pre out.

 

[swatski]

What I've been trying to say is that IB subs can work overtime and get a significantly "pronounced" and "live" performance boost from being enclosed in a small sealed enclosure. I am definitely toying with that idea.

Yes, IB in a small enclosure!

Keeping in mind I'm outfitting a boat, not the Carnegie Hall, I don't mind milking the system for some extra oomph even at the expense of some loss of (bass) quality, particularly in lower registers. If I can get away with a very small, shallow enclosure that would not take up much of the storage space, that's really the key.

Here, I found some quotes to support those statements (albeit somewhat out of context):

This is fact. When you place a true high 'Q' infinite baffle subwoofer driver in a box that is small enough that it serves to raise the 'Qtc' (system 'Q'), you lose deep bass and you add a midbass hump...in other words, you get more of a domed response curve. The smaller the box the more profound the change. So it is definitely adding a midbass peak, but not at the deeper registers. If you want to go acoustic suspension, which does have some advantages, simply select the right subwoofer driver for the right application. JL Audio makes such a driver, the M10W5.

And here is an interesting read and another David quote from a different forum:
"Sure, an IB sub in a small enclosure can give you a pronounced peak in the upper bass and sound very 'live' at the cost of no low bass. Technically that IS more output even though it's over a narrower bandwidth. But it sounds terribly unnatural to me. And because you have narrowed the sub's bandwidth considerably, to compensate many would be tempted to push the sub harder with more low frequency equalization, thus blow the woofer."

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[swatski]

@swatski Don’t you have a mixer? Does that thing have a sub level channel? I have the same issue with not feeling the bass at lower levels and determined it to be the low powered pre outs on the polk head unit and lack of dedicated sub pre out.

Yes, I have a WS420 which is great. But I swear the infinity Basslink seemed to had worked better when I had it hooked up to speaker level outputs from the HU. Yes, I can crank the bass/sub on the WS420 but it is still not the same (at low listening volumes) - I don't quite get that...

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[Mainah]

Yes, I have a WS420 which is great. But I swear the infinity Basslink seemed to had worked better when I had it hooked up to speaker level outputs from the HU. Yes, I can crank the bass/sub on the WS420 but it is still not the same (at low listening volumes) - I don't quite get that...

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The issue is the amplification curve. Subs need a lot of power to move them enough to produce audible and felt sound. With weak line level inputs a lot of amplification has to be added to the signal bad for both balancing the system and for noise being amplified. Then we tune it for the upper end of the volume to avoid clipping. That means at the lower end it is not getting enough power. I bet with a fusion or jl head unit this will still happen just not as bad as with the polk.

 

[Jaylex]

@CraigAR I'm not sure a 12 will fit on the starbord side or port for that matter....I have 2 12w3's and wanted to install them on each side and if i recall it would have been EXTREMELY tight if possible at all...not to mention might weaken the bench some. I think a nice 10 in a sealed box with a vent somewhere to let the bass escape would be a solid option. Allows you to preserve space and get deep bass without needing a ton of power.

I'm not sold on the idea of using a IB sub in a small enclosure... @swatski if I'm reading it right it sounds like you get a narrower band, which compromises the deep bass which I think the OP mentioned he wanted...not sure the kind of music played but putting in a 10 sub to not get full deep bass sounds odd to me....am I missing something. Aren't there some decent 10s for small enclosures.

 

[Mainah]

The polk mm1040 (now discontinued) only required 0.6 cuft for a sealed enclosure. The replacement 1042 model has a bit more continuous and a ton more peak power handling but requires 1.0 cuft. I have not dove into other offerings in quite a while but two years ago the mm1040 seamed like the best choice for a small sealed enclosure. Right now I have one pounding away and one still in a box. The performance when freer mounted was not that good but once I stuff tons of farms around where I have it mounted the performance improved. Since I am opening that area up again I am going to try and get creative to build a box I and slide it in from the helm or storage side which will take some funky angles on the box to get it to fit where I need it. Once I am doing with this and my other mods I will then decide if I mount the second one or go with basslink style.

 

[Jaylex]

@Mainah are you running that sub as free air?

Your idea to build a box is adventurous...id def wanna see that build....fiberglass or what??

I'm sure there's gotta be some other solid 10s that take small boxes... the JL 10w3 only takes .625, so less than .70 and I'm sure it would do you justice @CraigAR

Also not sure what amp you would run to send more than 100w to your 6.5s...that's already a ton of power....I have a JL M800/8 pushing 8 MX6.5s and thought I was doing something, lol

Not that you asked but I would prob keep the WS amp, and swap out the fosgate to run subs and towers??

Subs are a must to me, so I fully support this spend since it will make the boat a better place for all to enjoy, lol

 

[CraigAR]

The issue is the amplification curve. Subs need a lot of power to move them enough to produce audible and felt sound. With weak line level inputs a lot of amplification has to be added to the signal bad for both balancing the system and for noise being amplified. Then we tune it for the upper end of the volume to avoid clipping. That means at the lower end it is not getting enough power. I bet with a fusion or jl head unit this will still happen just not as bad as with the polk.

I just installed a JL 12W7AE-3 in JL's custom built H.O. box built for that sub only into the factory stereo in my Escalade. I used a LOC (line out converter) to hook up an (underpowered) JL HD750/1. Signal is not an issue. The amp's gain is just set a touch above the 1/4 notch. This thing has incredible clean deep bass and will make my wiper blades bounce off the windshield. The sub is rated for 1000rms. So if you have high end gear I believe a ported enclosure tuned right with the port up against a vent may be the best way to go in our boats if your looking for deep bass.

 

[Mainah]

I started with a db 1040 as free air. That was not so good. I then went with the mm 1040 as it was advertised as free air capable. I think Polk was stretching it with that one as it did perform better but not what I expected. I have now stuffed in lots of foam in an attempt at a sealed system. using the boat as the box. I did notice the difference so I would not recommend running the Polk subs as free air. I also had issue with the polk "Ultra-marine" rated swim deck remote knob corroding just as others have. IMO the stock polk amps they put in the 16 and 17 x-series under perform. I am having trouble trusting anything from Polk now but all my speakers are Polk and so far they are doing just fine. I am going to avoid Polk in the future and stick with the only three marine brands that have a solid reputation IMO (JL Audio, Wetsounds, Fusion). Since I have gone therefor wire there is only one brand to use IMO and they priced very well .... KnuKonceptz Flexs (I would avoid their Kandy line but also top of its class the Flexs is just that much better and worth it). I need to reach out KnuKonceptz and ask for some kind of commission with how much I recommend them. Their product is just that good that I will never use anything else even if it were twice the price (its not).

 

[Mainah]

I just installed a JL 12W7AE-3 in JL's custom built H.O. box built for that sub only into the factory stereo in my Escalade. I used a LOC (line out converter) to hook up an (underpowered) JL HD750/1. Signal is not an issue. The amp's gain is just set a touch above the 1/4 notch. This thing has incredible clean deep bass and will make my wiper blades bounce off the windshield. The sub is rated for 1000rms. So if you have high end gear I believe a ported enclosure tuned right with the port up against a vent may be the best way to go in our boats if your looking for deep bass.
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That is a giant box for that sub. I bet it sounds great. I am a much bigger fan of seeing a clean efficient system than seeing too many speakers crammed into a tight space. This fits that bill but more space than I am willing to give up in my boat.

 

[CraigAR]

@Mainah are you running that sub as free air?

Your idea to build a box is adventurous...id def wanna see that build....fiberglass or what??

I'm sure there's gotta be some other solid 10s that take small boxes... the JL 10w3 only takes .625, so less than .70 and I'm sure it would do you justice @CraigAR

Also not sure what amp you would run to send more than 100w to your 6.5s...that's already a ton of power....I have a JL M800/8 pushing 8 MX6.5s and thought I was doing something, lol

Not that you asked but I would prob keep the WS amp, and swap out the fosgate to run subs and towers??

Subs are a must to me, so I fully support this spend since it will make the boat a better place for all to enjoy, lol

I may just change out all my interior speakers now for something with a higher rms and install a wet sound sd6 that pushes out 185 rms! Or just add the amp for now and keep the gain low until i decide about swapping out the 6 interior speakers. My problem is that I just installed that amp and sub in my escalade and now i have an itch to make the boat sound better lol.

 

[CraigAR]

That is a giant box for that sub. I bet it sounds great. I am a much bigger fan of seeing a clean efficient system than seeing too many speakers crammed into a tight space. This fits that bill but more space than I am willing to give up in my boat.

It sounds fantastic. Even if I could fit this somewhere in the boat I would not do it. With seeing the way that the caddy flexes I would be afraid that I would have to swim back to shore after blistering holes in the fiberglass

 

[John Mcpartland]

Has anyone tried the jl 10tw3-d4? Im thinking of putting that where everyone puts the jl m10ib5 under the bench seat behind the driver seat. I am thinking of putting the slim box under the seat and putting the sub outside, sandwiching the fiberglass between the sub and slim sub box, so the sub would be out in the cabin area.