Second battery not charging with blue sea add a battery help

[maboat]

The ACR won't make batteries charge any faster than a shore charger. If you plug in a shore charger for less than an hour, it won't do much for a drained battery bank. Likewise, the engines won't charge drained batteries any faster. You need to cruise for hours to get any real charging benefit. This is not an ACR flaw, its normal behaviour. Its no different with shore charging. It ain't gonna make much difference unless you supply charging current (from engines or from external charger) for several hours.

Bigger engines with bigger alternators don't charge batteries any faster. What they do have is the ability to supply more current to more things running at the same time charging the batteries. But neither system is going to charge drained battery banks unless the engines are running for hours.

The benefit of the ACR for us is that is reduces or even eliminates the drain on the house bank when the engines are running. Whether ACR or manual switch, I don't expect the engines to fully recharge drained house banks. But it DOES reduce or stop the battery drain while the engines are running.

I have the newer one. And it does work... When I hook it up to a battery charger at home, I have watched it combine batteries. But when on the water, I've never seen the running engines generate enough of a charge to the house to make it combine. I suspect it does more like what @David Analog was saying. It combines, and the house battery is too drained, so it almost immediately un-combines, and then waits.... rinse, repeat.

Time to replace those broken dual volt-meters. Then you'll know exactly what's happening and why.

Simple voltage measurements at key points prove this behavior.
So if you are in deficit then turn 'Off' the dang stereo for long enough for the ACR to stay latched. It won't take that long to build a sufficient charge while underway at a good clip. Then bring the stereo on line a while later and take it easy.

ditto. and not just the stereo, but turn off everything (on both banks) that is not required until the voltage stabilizes.

So a manual combine switch makes more sense of our Yamaha's? @David Analog

The "add-a-battery" kit includes the dual-circuit battery switch. That switch has a manual combine position. So if you install the full kit, you get automatic operation with manual override when needed.

 

[David Analog]

So a manual combine switch makes more sense of our Yamaha's? @David Analog

Not at all. That is not the conclusion you should derive from the conversation. I'm only explaining the normal behaviors of an ACR/VSR. In fact, I highly recommend an ACR/VSR.
An ACR protects your starting battery from discharging (leveling with the depleted stereo battery) and placing the stators under an inordinate and unsafe load while underway. It's also convenient. However, when introduced into a audio system that is too large, a battery bank capacity that is too large, and/or a charging system that is too small, it can have some behaviors that you must understand and address. It's just not entirely a set-it & forget-it accessory.
Initially these devices where intended for low draw electronics for a fish & ski. You sure as heck don't see an ACR/VSR between the starting bank and trolling motor bank on a tournament boat. It's just not done....and for good reason. Our applications related to big stereo systems and supporting batteries are more like the trolling motor scenario.
I'm all for it but sometimes you've got to still be a little involved. That includes a full understanding, proper installation execution, a little discipline, and occasionally injecting a little manual attention. And it increases your dependency on AC shore charging.

 

[Detonate]

However, when introduced into a audio system that is too large, a battery bank capacity that is too large, and/or a charging system that is too small, it can have some behaviors that you must understand and address.

 

[txav8r]

He didn't say that @Murf'n'surf . The ACR. as @maboat is saying, is an excellent tool. You just have to understand how it works and use it within its capability. It can greatly extend your day. @David , do you think the ECM and other stock systems on these boats are requiring half of the 28 amps that the stators put out? I don't think they use much more than 5 to 10 amps, if that, and the bulk would go to charging capability. That 18amps, just like mentioned, is more than most home charging solutions put out per hour. It won't run a big stereo system indefinitely, but it sure buys time. An ACR setup is a simple solution to supplement you power requirements for CHEAP compared to other solutitions. But there are indeed other solutions. You will always here me say charge your batteries after every usage. There are many variables to this, but I assume (bad move I know), that anyone would start the day with full batteries. If you don't, then you need to know where your are and what to expect from your system. I like the way when on a lake for the weekend, without any shore power, I can get an extension to my time on the water with the music, having an ACR to help offset the drain I put on the batteries. And all this is a moot point for me right now...stock stereo and a single battery...and I find my jump pack (not a cheap alternative) to be dead as a door nail, because it was not my priority and I didn't keep it fully charged over the years with dual batteries. So the dual battery setup is moving up on the mod list. More than likely, I will install another system, just like the one I had, the add a battery kit, second battery, and forget the "not needed on our boats" start isolation. Simple solution, big benefit.

@wakeformer , can you clarify the single ground wire from the ACR to any ground source? I am more than willing to help you both understand the setup and help you get it working correctly. A number of issues here, and it may be a simple as a bad battery. Also, the techs at Blue Sea are excellent and will offer their assistance for free, to help you get the most from your setup.

 

[maboat]

can you clarify the single ground wire from the ACR to any ground source? I am more than willing to help you both understand the setup and help you get it working correctly. A number of issues here, and it may be a simple as a bad battery.

He said the ACR ground was connected to the house battery ground and he did not use a ground bus bar. Its not clear, but it sounds like he doesn't have a common ground. The ACR must be grounded for three reasons:

1. it provides a reference point to measure voltage levels at the battery terminals (as @Detonate said)
2. it provides a return path to complete the circuit for the LEDs (as @txav8r said)
3. it provides a return path to complete the circuit for the relay coil. (as I say)

But grounding the ACR to one of two separate grounds is not enough. There needs to be a common ground between the batteries in order to complete the circuit for flow of charging current from the engines, through the ACR, through the House battery, and back through ground to the engines.

 

[David Analog]

I've seen a Yamaha stall dead as a door nail when dashing across the lake sporting a major stereo. That wouldn't happen with an ACR. Only the stereo would stall. On balance, I know which one I would prefer.
With fully charged batteries and most large systems on a Yamaha boat, keeping the stereo battery on-line throughout the day via the ACR will help extend the day and promotes shallower battery cycles which is healthier for even a deep cycle battery. And it is safe for the boat. However, there may come a time when after a long play duration at significant volume at rest that the ACR may never combine again for the rest of the day. In that case the stereo bank stands isolated until it gets to shore service. Be careful though. If you continue to run the stereo until it passes its low voltage threshold and powers down, then you are dramatically shortening your batteries' lifespan, especially if you do this with any repetition, and including a deep cycle battery. One season of doing this routinely and the ACR stands no chance because of the battery degradation. Or, you can manual combine which isn't healthy for the stators. Or, you can lay off the stereo long enough to allow the charging system to recover and keep the ACR closed even with moderate stereo use.

 

[txav8r]

A bunch of assumtions we are making here. @maboat , one of my assumtions is that the battery ground posts would be connected together...as they absolutely should be with a common ground. If they were, the ACR would be grounded correctly. It was actually a Blue Sea tech that told me that the ground from the ACR was for the LED indicator light, so I was locked in on that primarily, assuming that the batteries were grounded correctly, it would not matter where it was connected as long as it was on the battery negative path.

 

[txav8r]

I've seen a Yamaha stall dead as a door nail when dashing across the lake sporting a major stereo. That wouldn't happen with an ACR. Only the stereo would stall. On balance, I know which one I would prefer.
With fully charged batteries and most large systems on a Yamaha boat, keeping the stereo battery on-line throughout the day via the ACR will help extend the day and promotes shallower battery cycles which is healthier for even a deep cycle battery. And it is safe for the boat. However, there may come a time when after a long play duration at significant volume at rest that the ACR may never combine again for the rest of the day. In that case the stereo bank stands isolated until it gets to shore service. Be careful though. If you continue to run the stereo until it passes its low voltage threshold and powers down, then you are dramatically shortening your batteries' lifespan, especially if you do this with any repetition, and including a deep cycle battery. One season of doing this routinely and the ACR stands no chance because of the battery degradation. Or, you can manual combine which isn't healthy for the stators. Or, you can lay off the stereo long enough to allow the charging system to recover and keep the ACR closed even with moderate stereo use.

And...this is the protection you have too! If you have depleted the stereo battery so low it won't combine, then you don't stand a chance of the paralleling hurting either your cables, the other battery, or the stators! Works good, lasts a long time. Battery maintenance is a must, that includes shore charging. An ACR is not a substitute for shore charging.

 

[maboat]

I would like to know if I need to tie the grounds together between the batteries and the ACR

YES, you need to have a common ground. i.e. all grounds tied together.

 

[wakeformer]

Can you post a quick sketch of your setup? where does the ground from the other battery go?

Here is the diagram

 

[txav8r]

This thread has a big discussion on these and offers some easier diagrams and explanations.
https://jetboaters.net/threads/blue-seas-add-a-battery-kit-questions.1645/

 

[txav8r]

your diagram is missing the common ground between the two negative posts of each battery. All grounds must be common.

 

[wakeformer]

I will connect the grounds together and report back heading out tomorrow night

Thanks for the input everyone

 

[txav8r]

Also, make sure both batteries are fully charged @wakeformer . It may have been ground to a battery not connected to the charge loop, or it may have been a depleted battery to begin with, and...you may have a bad battery. You can troubleshoot and find out. Be sure you use at least the same size cable between the two battery negative posts as the positive cables. Stock is 6 ga but I always run 4ga because of the stereo demands.

 

[Detonate]

I've seen a Yamaha stall dead as a door nail when dashing across the lake sporting a major stereo. That wouldn't happen with an ACR. Only the stereo would stall. On balance, I know which one I would prefer.

Interesting...
*WARNING DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO*
I've ran my stereo down to where it completely stopped working. Then I flip the switch to combine all 3 of my batteries, and then when the stereo stops playing again... I cut off the subwoofer and the in-boat speakers. I usually get about another hour of play time through the tower before that dies.

Then I call it a day... I hop in the boat and my engines fire right up no problem. I never worry about the stereo causing me to run the batteries down below what it takes to start the boat.

 

[steined]

I will connect the grounds together and report back heading out tomorrow night

Thanks for the input everyone

@wakeformer I've got a short battery to battery cable on my work bench you can have if you need one (I think 4ga, maybe 6ga). Otherwise Advanced Auto has good prices on 4ga "starter cables". Just hit them with some Corrosion X or some other corrosion inhibitor.

 

[maboat]

Interesting...
*WARNING DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO*
I've ran my stereo down to where it completely stopped working. Then I flip the switch to combine all 3 of my batteries, and then when the stereo stops playing again... I cut off the subwoofer and the in-boat speakers. I usually get about another hour of play time through the tower before that dies.

Then I call it a day... I hop in the boat and my engines fire right up no problem. I never worry about the stereo causing me to run the batteries down below what it takes to start the boat.

I remember one time you and I were anchored at the beach with our stereos linked together and we went through this whole cycle on both our boats. Ran down ALL batteries on both boats AND jumper packs until we absolutely positively couldn't squeak out any more music. That's when we decided to pack it in. Hopped in the boats and started right up. That was a good day

*WARNING*NOT RECOMMENDED* (but it was fun to actually do it )

 

[David Analog]

You can run the batteries down to a level below where the stereo will shut off and still start the engines. But it is horrible for the batteries and not so good for the starter and stators either.
Consumer grade deep cycle batteries should not be repetitively discharged below 50%, which is about 11.8 to 12.0 volts depending on the source. There is not a linear ratio between the number of cycles and the depth of cycles. Really deep cycles manifest as an inordinate fewer number of cycles over the battery's lifespan and shallower cycles translate to an inordinate greater number of cycles.
Having said that I understand the desperate need for music and a willingness to pay the piper later.

 

[wakeformer]

@wakeformer I've got a short battery to battery cable on my work bench you can have if you need one (I think 4ga, maybe 6ga). Otherwise Advanced Auto has good prices on 4ga "starter cables". Just hit them with some Corrosion X or some other corrosion inhibitor.

Thanks for the offer man but I stopped by my buddies shop and cut a 1' long piece of his good stuff. Gotta love friends with shops.

 

[txav8r]

After that @wakeformer , you can hook your grounds to either battery, they are all common and that is how you want them. Just a little explanation...the reason behind this is that you have not frame or common ground on a boat, like on a car. So all the grounds get tied in together. You mentioned that you didn't use a bus bar and that is ok. But it just makes it easier to use one and then you never need to fool with the battery posts again. Well, at least for a number of years. All your grounds are on a simple 4 post bus bar and if you need to change a component, you change it and remove the component from the switch (positive), and the ground from the bus bar. I also had two bus bars by my batteries, one ACC (positive) and one ground (negative), it makes it very easy to set up or make changes, but the cable will do it too. For that matter, you could run a bolt through the plywood bulkhead, and attach the ground cables to it...it is just a common point, nothing more, nothing less.