Starter still turning over engine after ignition is switched off 2010 212x

[jetboater4life]

I searched through the forum and faq and could not find any thread discussing a similar problem so here goes. We did about 30mins surfing with a few quick stop and starts as we switched riders. After the last rider was done I turned off both engines and to my surprise the starter on the port engine started cranking over the engine (or possibly was cranking the entire time the engine was on?). I switched off my dual battery switch to cut all power and it stopped. Then I turned the switch back on everything was quiet, the starter did not start cranking the engine. I then started both engines and they fired up just fine. Turning them off led to the same behavior with the port starter just cranking the engine.

It was towards the end of the day with mosquitoes (northern MN lake) and a thunderstorm inbound so I closed it up and put the cover on it while it sat tied to my parents dock.

Here is the problem. I need to get it on the trailer (about a 25min boat ride at 30mph to the launch) tomorrow so I can head home. I could debug the wiring and inspect ignition switches and battery connections but I am concerned that if I break something then I am really stuck. Could this be the starter solenoid/relay or something with the starter?

Like I said before, in all the posts I reviewed it was about a starter not cranking where I have the opposite. A little more searching on car forums gave me some other clues but unlikely to be simple fix so I think I will tackle it when I get home.

Please share your thoughts and opinions. This forum has kept my boat out of the shop for all 12 years of ownership.

2010 212x MR1 engines

 

[buckbuck]

That's a head scratcher. I would say it has to be the relay in the ecu box but I don't know what to suggest for getting it back to the trailer. Hmmm..

 

[jetboater4life]

I am going to use the battery switch to turn the starter off once I shut it down on the trailer. One concern is that the starter may be spinning while the engine is on thus potentially being a fire hazard if something burns out. My dad didn't think that would be an issue since it would not be under load but running the starter for 25mins straight can't be good for it. I don't know yet if that is actually the case. The boat seemed to run fine with both engines running. But I only ran it for a few minutes back to the dock after the problem was discovered.

Another option is to pinch off the port water intake and limp back to the launch on one engine. But that could take over an hour

 

[haknslash]

I’d limp it back on one engine.

 

[buckbuck]

I admit this may be difficult but if you have a volt meter you could verify if voltage is going through the relay to the starter. It may put your mind at ease.

 

[jetboater4life]

Before heading to the launch I listened to the port engine while it was running and didn't hear anything out of the ordinary. It sounded exactly the same as the starboard. I decided to drive it to the launch with both engines and everything went fine. I have it back home and will begin the electrical debug by starting with the easy stuff, making sure all the wires are connected and fuses are good. Before I get into the starter solenoid/relay and starter I will do some simple ignition switch testing. More forum reading on the auto forums where this has been reported will help as well.

 

[buckbuck]

Keep us posted to what you find.

 

[jetboater4life]

I pulled the ignition switches out and looked for bad wires. Looked for fuses or bad wires elsewhere but found nothing. I swapped the ignition switches and the problem stayed with the port engine. I took out the 4 screws that cover the starter solenoid/relay but need to study up on what to do next.

 

[buckbuck]

It might be getting time to consider pulling the ECU and opening it up. Maybe condensation issues?

 

[anmut]

Swap the solenoid and see if the issue follows that piece.

 

[David Martin]

Without hearing what you are hearing is a little harder to diagnose but hear is some info that might help when the solenoid relay kicks in sends a lot of amps to the starter the starter moves a gear forward and it meshes with the ring gear on the engine flywheel. That turns the engine over to start as soon as the engine starts the starter retracks the gear off the flywheel allowing the motor to run freely. If the gear stayed engaged it would break the starter /solenoid gears/teeth..........it can break teeth on the flywheel engine side (big expense) or strip the gears on the starter side (less expense).

Yamahas starter and solenoid appear to be built as one whole unit.........and it sound like something inside the starter is spinning without engaging the starter gear to the flywheel gear. If it stayed engaged while the engine was running you would hear metal to metal as the gear teeth started breaking................if you only hear the starter spinning after shut down then the teeth are not engaged or the motor would turn over.

Anyway hopefully the ring gear is not damaged............that's the costly repair.

 

[jetboater4life]

Without hearing what you are hearing is a little harder to diagnose but hear is some info that might help when the solenoid relay kicks in sends a lot of amps to the starter the starter moves a gear forward and it meshes with the ring gear on the engine flywheel. That turns the engine over to start as soon as the engine starts the starter retracks the gear off the flywheel allowing the motor to run freely. If the gear stayed engaged it would break the starter /solenoid gears/teeth..........it can break teeth on the flywheel engine side (big expense) or strip the gears on the starter side (less expense).

Yamahas starter and solenoid appear to be built as one whole unit.........and it sound like something inside the starter is spinning without engaging the starter gear to the flywheel gear. If it stayed engaged while the engine was running you would hear metal to metal as the gear teeth started breaking................if you only hear the starter spinning after shut down then the teeth are not engaged or the motor would turn over.

Anyway hopefully the ring gear is not damaged............that's the costly repair.

After the key is turned off, the starter is turning over the engine. I don't hear anything strange or out of the ordinary when I start the port engine. I've listened closely to just the starboard running, then shut it down and started the port and they sound identical. The port starter and engine seem to working fine. After needing to shut the starter off by cutting power to the engine with the perko battery switch then turning the battery switch back on (starter and engine do not turn over) then using the key to start the engine it fires right up. I'm trying to limit doing this, but I have had to do it several times to debug. I'm thinking that it's the starter relay that is stuck closed allowing current to pass. Cutting the power to it must be enough to trigger it to open, maybe???? I'm going to check the connections on the starter again before I open the ECU box and replace the relay. I kind of expected the starter to start cranking the engine again when I switched the battery switch back on but that never happens. I assume the engine shuts down when the ignitian is turned off and due to lack of spark does not start up when the starter is turning it over.

I won't be able to get my hands on a new relay until Thursday so I'll try to get the ECU box out now. I've read that removing this box is a PITA because you have to get to both sides of the engine wall to remove the bolts. I've also read that changing out the starter is also a Pita because it's hiding under the exhaust manifold and difficult to see let alone work on. I you sure the starter and solenoid are one unit? I'm not a mechanic but my understanding is that the starter relay, also considered the solenoid, that when closed will allow the high current to pass to the starter to turn over the engine. A solenoid is all that is needed but it's often called a starter relay. It's part 29 in this diagram. 2010 Yamaha 212X (FAT1100AJ) Electrical 1 | Yamaha Sports Plaza
I can get both the starter and the starter relay/solenoid for $53 on Amazon, but it won't arrive until Saturday. I ordered just the solenoid/relay for $18 and can get that on Thursday.

I'm sure you already know this but some of the terminology I wasn't familiar with. Difference between a solenoid and relay-->

Starter relay part number for my 2010 212x - - > 6B6-81940-00-00
Starter part number - - > 60E-81800-00-00

 

[jetboater4life]

Swap the solenoid and see if the issue follows that piece.

It's a lot of work to get all the wires out of the way and pull the ECU box. I think I'll do that on the port engine and see how it goes tonight. I ordered a new relay for $18 that will arrive on Thursday and probably just swap that in to see if it fixes the problem.

 

[jetboater4life]

I got all set up to remove the ECU box when I decided to take another site unseen feel of the starter connections. I found the ground wire connected to the bottom starter mount bolt and then found the top starter mount bolt. Everything seemed snug. I then followed the positive wire up as far as I could reach and it seemed loose. It was a little hard to tell if I was wiggling the wire or if the ring connector was moving on the post as I didn't reach far enough in to actually touch the post/bolt. Is there any way to tighten it without pulling the starter? After wiggling it I tried starting up again. Same behavior. Engine starts fine but when the switch turns off the starter continues to crank over the engine. Turning off the batteries stops it. Mosquitoes and darkness chased me inside so I didn't make much progress on the ECU box removal.

 

[anmut]

Could it be the (i think it's called) bendix on the starter is not contracting? That spring might have failed?

 

[jetboater4life]

Could it be the (i think it's called) bendix on the starter is not contracting? That spring might have failed?

If the relay replacement doesn't fix this problem, I ordered a new starter for $35 off Amazon but it won't arrive until Saturday. It's cheap insurance in case the starter does eventually fail due to the extra work it's been doing. After feeling underneath the exhaust manifold I think I could site unseen remove the two starter mounting bolts. I'm not sure how easy it will be to dislodge the starter or put it back in. I've read that some people were not able to get the starter back in place due to the tines not lineing up. The relay replacement seems like something I can tackle tomorrow when the new relay arrives. I am concerned about the positive lead on the starter being loose. I wish I had a picture of where that lead connects to the starter so I can get a better idea of where I need to fumble around with my fingers underneath the exahaust manifold to see if the connection is in fact really loose.

 

[anmut]

If the relay replacement doesn't fix this problem, I ordered a new starter for $35 off Amazon but it won't arrive until Saturday. It's cheap insurance in case the starter does eventually fail due to the extra work it's been doing. After feeling underneath the exhaust manifold I think I could site unseen remove the two starter mounting bolts. I'm not sure how easy it will be to dislodge the starter or put it back in. I've read that some people were not able to get the starter back in place due to the tines not lineing up. The relay replacement seems like something I can tackle tomorrow when the new relay arrives. I am concerned about the positive lead on the starter being loose. I wish I had a picture of where that lead connects to the starter so I can get a better idea of where I need to fumble around with my fingers underneath the exahaust manifold to see if the connection is in fact really loose.

Put your phone on video mode and scroll it through that area?

 

[David Martin]

Hear is a diagram

 

[jetboater4life]

Put your phone on video mode and scroll it through that area?

That might work. I have a scope that plugs into my phone and might give that a try.

 

[jetboater4life]

My scope was crappy and did not provide enough light or resolution to really see anything. I tried again and reached as far as I could but could not pull the boot off the positive connection. My fingers are too fat and my arm is not long enough. Someone with a smaller hand and longer arm may be able to do this. Even then getting a wrench on that bolt and turning it might be impossible. I am 99% sure the connection is loose on the post. However a bad power connection on the starter would not lead to the behavior I am seeing so I'm quite certain that my problem is related to the starter solenoid/relay sticking closed. I don't believe my starter is bad because it starts the engine just fine. Most people report that the starter solenoid/relay sticks open but I have found a few cases in the car forums where it sticks closed. To tighten the power connection I would need to pull the starter out. Doing that risks that I won't be able to get it back in and would render the boat out of commission for even longer. I should get the new starter solenoid/relay tonight and will try to get it in and test it out.