ASP (Aerial Surf Platform)-like device for Yamaha?

[swatski]

Just wondering if anyone here is thinking of adding an ASP-type swim platform extension to a Yamaha?

I could see it even more like the new Tige "whale tail" style.

@KXCam22 I bet you or @Yamatuf could come up with something like that.

(I know the ladder is in the way, but that is secondary)

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[buckbuck]

That is a good idea @swatski
The Wake Wedge boys demonstrated that knocking down the jet wash helps reshape the wave. Something like this could be an evolutionary step. I would just have to have a place to easily store it.

 

[swatski]

I know @buckbuck. Every time I look at this platform it drives me crazy.
Mine is black and almost impossible to photograph w/all the profiles, but this hull/swim platform is MADE to be added upon. The ladder bracket area could be adapted for a brace etc. jets are recessed and at the right height, and the new hulls have plenty of length in the platform.

Frankly I don't think Yamaha can afford not to design something like that ( add on or otherwise) and think of competing in the surf market. Why would they not have it already? Are they working on it?



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[007]

@swatski, I believe Tige has moved completely away from the "AVX" system for 2017. My 2015 boat has it and it was an option in 2016. The advantage of this style is amazingly consistent wakes, longer wakes, better shallow water wakes and very low fuel consumption for a wake boat. The reason that Tige is phasing out it that listed boats are less popular as more and more people are buying wake boats, and that listed boats don't allow quick shift (arguably a feature most riders are not able to take advantage of during a surf run, but a time saver if you have goofy and standard riders). So everyone has some sort of tab system now (taps3 in Tige's case). I will say this shape also requires a bit more ballast weight than a non AVX boat to push a stellar wake, but it is ram driven and can tune the wave a considerable amount.

I could see it even more like the new Tige "whale tail" style.

@KXCam22 I bet you or @Yamatuf could come up with something like that.

(I know the ladder is in the way, but that is secondary)

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[swatski]

@swatski, I believe Tige has moved completely away from the "AVX" system for 2017. My 2015 boat has it and it was an option in 2016. The advantage of this style is amazingly consistent wakes, longer wakes, better shallow water wakes and very low fuel consumption for a wake boat. The reason that Tige is phasing out it that listed boats are less popular as more and more people are buying wake boats, and that listed boats don't allow quick shift (arguably a feature most riders are not able to take advantage of during a surf run, but a time saver if you have goofy and standard riders). So everyone has some sort of tab system now (taps3 in Tige's case). I will say this shape also requires a bit more ballast weight than a non AVX boat to push a stellar wake, but it is ram driven and can tune the wave a considerable amount.

Oh I so agree. Importantly, however the real "whale tail" (AVX) hull extension is not possible with the jets coming out of the transom in a Yamaha, so any AVX-like extension would have to be run above those to just shape the wake wave from the above, just like what the ASP or Wake Wedge does currently available. #wakewedge

The Wake Wedge guys are my heroes, I'm pretty sure I'll be adding one in the Spring, ideally a non-fold-able one w/the actuator (if those are available!), that is a huge and a very practical step. That said, these new twin boats have tremendous potential that is now just not being realized. With the right approach to pump and engine tuning, combined with a hull/deck extension - those could be the wake boats to recon with, overall. I would guesstimate with the twin pumps there is at least 30% power, probably more, currently lost that could be added for low end pulling just based on the amount of prop slippage under extreme load, such as running with one pump/engine (or with a ton of ballast etc.). With some guys already running pretty hefty amounts of ballast, adding another 30-50% would allow to make truly monstrous wakes possible. Just to put this in perspective, when I played with my single pump 190, with a few mods got it to pop on the plane and pull with 1,800lbs of ballast, no problem. Pump efficiency is the key though, and that is a different discussion.

I think those new tab surf systems mentioned (with uniquely shaped tabs -- eliminating the need to list the boat) could easily be incorporated in a Yammie (on top of the ASP-like wave shaping swim platform extension), there is plenty of space at the transom and many have already installed traditional Lectra/Lenco/Bennett/Vovlo tabs that work great.

Ballast is going to be a difficult item to replace, at least completely. I would think the ladder bracket under Yamaha swim deck already looks like an ideal place to mount a Power Wedge-type device, but the issue is with the deck/transom enforcement, and the built quality/ruggedness of Yamaha FRP hulls... One would have to enforce the hull/deck in a very substantial way from the inside to run one of those:

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[007]

Legend has it that the original power wedge ripped a few gapping transoms holes in the back of Malibu's when they first came out. The fiberglass layup schedule is much beefier in a wake boat and they went heavier yet. You'd need some pretty serious hull reinforcement to add that puppy to a Yamaha!

 

[swatski]

Legend has it that the original power wedge ripped a few gapping transoms holes in the back of Malibu's when they first came out. The fiberglass layup schedule is much beefier in a wake boat and they went heavier yet. You'd need some pretty serious hull reinforcement to add that puppy to a Yamaha!

Oh I agree with that, too. However, lets keep in mind those inboard boat transoms were never (originally) designed to handle the type of loads (unlike, say, outboard boat transoms), swim platforms attached w/brackets just for passenger traffic etc.

With Yamaha, the swim deck is more of a "unibody" construction with the hull. But that FRP fiberglass IS thin! Any install there would have to be treated like e.g. wake tower install - probably doable, just real fiberglassed enforcements to spread the loads and the size of the wedge would need to be reasonable.

And, I do not see any (insurmountable) structural issues as far as an ASP-like extension for a Yamaha. The ladder bracket would hold it no problem, albeit properly enforced on the inside (easy).

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[swatski]

I am thinking to building that ASP-like swim platform extension. Probably just carve it out of an ESP block and mold to fit at the back (tucked under/lower tiered) of my Yammie’s swim deck.
(Now, if I wanted to do a bunch of water testing, would need to epoxy-fiberglass it. Kind of what @KXCam22 and others do building surf boards, similar process)
To make a mold I would just use hand laid fiberglass, molded into panels to create the outside and inside surfaces, probably two large parts (top and bottom) to be assembled together. If it worked and I liked it, I would consider a semi-permanent install, move the ladder to slide inside. Otherwise it could be a clip-on part. I love messing with fiberglass. But I only made one platform so far, and it sucked but was a tricky project, with an outboard.

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[swatski]

Does anyone here have experience with manufacturing polyurethane foam (male) molds? I think that'd be the best way to create the parts of the plug that would fit into the wells around the ladder bracket. the rest of the mold can be shaped by cutting and grinding but those parts would be tricky. Getting the exact fit would be great for creating something that's a clip-on/bolt-on install.


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[haknslash]

I can't help but wonder what a thick rubber mat and some 45 lb weights would do with knocking down the jet wash heh. Or a simple V-shaped extension under the swim platform.

 

[007]

The mat idea has been used in the v'drive world upgrading older boats to surf quality. It has been tried on other boat types too. It is useful for knocking down wash and even smoothing the wave profile in some instances, but I've not seen a case where it was effective at building overall wave shape, height or push.

I can't help but wonder what a thick rubber mat and some 45 lb weights would do with knocking down the jet wash heh. Or a simple V-shaped extension under the swim platform.

 

[swatski]

I can't help but wonder what a thick rubber mat and some 45 lb weights would do with knocking down the jet wash heh. Or a simple V-shaped extension under the swim platform.

The rubber mat idea - I understand - but don't think it would work with our boats. With a jet, you need hard mounted surface to deflect the jet wash (which is really a jet stream), no way rubber mat would do it. Even with inboards the heaviest rubber mats are generally needed to efficiently smooth the white wash, based on what I can find about it. And besides, that is what Gantlin Wake Wedge of @jcyamaharider and @ar240owner does very well.
Regarding the V-shaped extension - I'm not picturing that, can you help.

The ASP-like (whale-tail bottom-shaped) structure appended to swim deck strikes me as a complete no-brainer. It works, at least in part, in Chaparrals. It buys a bit more real estate for the swim platform which is always nice, and I would also think it may help as well with platform starts (or teak dragging, LOL).

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[swatski]

Or a simple V-shaped extension under the swim platform.

@haknslash you mean like this :

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[buckbuck]

@swatski
I don't think that would work. The surfer may get torched by the exhaust emissions.

 

[haknslash]

The mat idea has been used in the v'drive world upgrading older boats to surf quality. It has been tried on other boat types too. It is useful for knocking down wash and even smoothing the wave profile in some instances, but I've not seen a case where it was effective at building overall wave shape, height or push.

Cool! I never knew they tried this back in the day lol. I wasn't implying for it to be used to shape or build the wake but rather to help minimize the jet wash. You would of course still need ballast and to list the boat. We put about 700 lbs on @Bill D's 242 and the wave looked like it had some push but his jet wash was messing up any shape that could have developed because it just disturbs everything. Wouldn't hurt to try I suppose .....for science lol.

This is thankfully one area where I'm glad to have a single engine as I don't have the jet wash issue when using ballast . At around 2:00 or so in this video you can see the wash from my 192 and then a little later the wash from Bill's boat. He had more slack in the line on his boat as the wave was stronger from boat weighing more but the wash messes it up.

 

[haknslash]

The upside down v-shape seems to be what the ASP platform does to divert the jet stream down where it converges further back and shaped by the draw of the boat. Do you have a picture from directly underneath the ASP to get a better idea of how it's shaped aside from the v?

 

[swatski]

The upside down v-shape seems to be what the ASP platform does to divert the jet stream down where it converges further back and shaped by the draw of the boat. Do you have a picture from directly underneath the ASP to get a better idea of how it's shaped aside from the v?

Now I see what you mean! Yes that is the idea. To me the bottom of ASP looks pretty much like the center portion of Tige AVX whale tail.

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[007]

Agreed!

@swatski
I don't think that would work. The surfer may get torched by the exhaust emissions.

 

[swatski]

The more I think about it, I'm not convinced I would want to get into Power Wedge (Malibu) or Switchblade (Centurion) style devices. But the ASP-style tail platform is probably the way to go, except I would probably make it a bit more robust and maybe even with an adjustable/tilt-able bottom. There just has to be enough ballast -- that back part of the platform would need to be sunk basically.

As far a listing the boat and switching sides, I don't see how some big ass trim tabs wouldn't do the work. Basically that is what all those new systems are. TAPS3 (Tige), GoSurfAssist (MB) (and WaveMakers' WaveControl- the same system, Wakemakers is the retail outlet and installer for Go Surf Assist) -- they are just nice fancy trim tabs, some have a second point of articulation but they don't go into the stream like NSS or the swell system on Supra. All use Lenco actuators, BTW.

There is plenty enough room on the transom of a 240 to mount the tabs below the swim platform. @1948Isaac just did his, I would probably go larger though.

Beyond all that - I think the CRITICAL PART for jet boats is getting the pulling power (getting rid of prop slippage), so that one can load the ballast to the max and still run 10-12mph easy. I believe that is doable, but will require pump mods. Coming soon, hopefully. That is the starting point for me. I know that if I can achieve 0 (zero) prop slip running on single pumps, we are in business.

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[jcyamaharider]

I like where this is going!! Keep up the thought process!