***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[robert843]

You have got to be kidding me. What a complete joke. How the heck can you break a seat. I'm definitely not a lawyer kind of guy but it's about principle as much as it is the money. Man I just hate you are having to deal with this. I really thought more of Yamaha with their willingness to replace their faulty chains once they prematurely break. I guess that goodwill flew right out the window.

Making it worse are there are several others I have seen post now with broken seats that are being taken care of under warranty.

 

[swatski]

Even if it was "all user error" the real problem i have is why have a hold down for a heavy tower that is so easily crossed threaded or stripped.

Oh, I see what you mean.
As I'm in the process of delegating this, I was already assured the very definition of "user error" will be addressed in this context.

The way it was explained to me, let's say - I am an inexperienced person who is not mechanically inclined, I should still be able to tighten the knob until it is tight, right?

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[Neutron]

Oh, I see what you mean.
As I'm in the process of delegating this, I was already assured the very definition of "user error" will be addressed in this context.

The way it was explained to me, let's say - I am an inexperienced person who is not mechanically inclined, I should still be able to tighten the knob until it is tight, right?

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Correct, you dont need to be a ASE certified master tech to turn and tighten a knob

 

[swatski]

Making it worse are there are several others I have seen post now with broken seats that are being taken care of under warranty.

Thanks, @robert843, lol.

Unfortunately, I have no reason to think Yamaha has been completely strait with me...
But we have a bigger fish to fry.

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[Neutron]

So if you buy a new truck and drive it down the road, the wheel falls off, you crash, wreck the truck.
Next day tow it back to dealer to assess the failure. They find stripped out lug studs caused the wheel to fall off.
But they find its on you cause it must be user error because you must have changed a flat and stripped the threads.

I bet there is AR owners who have never lowered their towers. So who is at fault there?
What if @swatski bought his boat just prior to the crossing and never touched his tower and it fell because of stripped threads, Obviously its not user error.

 

[Betik]

Thanks, @robert843, lol.

Unfortunately, I have no reason to think Yamaha has been completely strait with me...
But we have a bigger fish to fry.

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When the fish is ready to roast and you need eyewitness please do let us know. Do not worry about the travel.

 

[Jay Petzold]

I think one of Yamaha's biggest problems with quality is that they have such a large market of products, between boats , jetskis, snowmobile, keyboards, I had many issues with things that should have been caught in quality control, metal shavings in the bilge, fiberglass shavings everywhere, bad connection on my anchor light, thankfully swatski is alright, but my point being that other brands are only building boats, not 15 other things too, I have never folded my tower down and don't know if I should check the threads or just leave it where it's been since factory! Was planning to trade up in a couple years to a 242x but with these quality and building issues not sure, the new chapparal's are pretty nice

 

[NewBoater]

I am so sorry to hear this happened and glad you guys are all ok (other than your back). Hope that heals up ok. What a cluster f^%# that they will not cover this under your warranty. Seems like these boats we love are having lots of problems and reasons we are not loving them so much anymore. My SX210 just a little over a year old ski locker screws broke off in my hand the other day and I tried to screw it back together and it just spun and spun. Threads wouldn't work so I had a broken ski locker hatch after just 1 year. Dealer fixed it under warranty for me this past week. The first person I talked to said I think it just needs bigger screws to which I replied why wouldn't Yamaha have put the bigger ones in then?

Side question, on the 2015-2017 242 Limited SE boats (which is the only other Yamaha boat I would ever consider getting/upgrading to one day) is the tower the same and this potential same thing could happen to? Or has different screw mechanisms and there's no way the tower can fall down on you even if threaded wrong? Does tower not collapse down as far on Limited se?

Hope they change their mind and step up to the plate for you. If not I would try hard to get the dealer you bought it from to cover it and fix it as they didn't go over this with you as being a possible problem in your taking delivery talk, etc.

 

[Bruce]

Oh, I see what you mean.
As I'm in the process of delegating this, I was already assured the very definition of "user error" will be addressed in this context.

The way it was explained to me, let's say - I am an inexperienced person who is not mechanically inclined, I should still be able to tighten the knob until it is tight, right?

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My simplistic perspective is that anything in the boat that is over your head and could kill you by falling should be stronger than the hull itself. It also should be idiot proof. But I can assure you that the Swat's are extremely bright and highly educated.

 

[biglar155]

This is VERY disappointing to hear about. In my humble opinion, Yamaha has priced themselves out of the ability to excuse this type of thing under the "you get what you pay for" thought.

When I bought my '09, I knew it had some simple issues but I was aware of them. Thanks to the group here (in a slightly different space) I knew exactly what to do to fix them. That was the compromise. I felt I was getting more boat than I had actually paid for and all I needed to do was a little DIY work to get it where I wanted it.

Things are different now though. The prices have climbed to the point that these little home-made (and in some cases 3rd-party made) remedies are no longer acceptable solutions. This stuff should be right from the factory. What now? Does @Cobra Jet Steering LLC need to build EZ-Tower-Locks? Should @JetBoatPilot start making the True-Tower-Lock? This would probably be amusing if we didn't have people here afraid of being killed by their brand new boat that cost them almost twice what I paid for mine.

Shame on you Yamaha.

 

[druppert]

This has been fascinating to read about. Thank God nobody was killed and I am equally appalled by Yamaha's reaction. I have already given thought to my future boat and I thought I may like a tower. My girlfriend hasn't been around boats much but she LOVES the internal propulsion but the Rotax boats seem to be prone to flooding through the prop shaft & the Yamahas may collapse & kill you. Sigh. I think my future boat will be an outboard again as I hate stern drives. Disgraceful response by Yamaha! Really sad!

 

[MrMoose]

@Betik, you are correct, my tower seems to be ok. Other than tagging @1948Isaac for his input early on, I’ve been on the sidelines till now because I agree with most of what has been said to this point. Although I’ve been away from the quality engineering / failure analysis field for many years, I can’t help but see this situation from this perspective, but before I get into this, I need to say that I’m still shaken by what happened to @swatski and his family. He was the only adult in his boat and this could have killed/paralyzed him, in front of his kids.

I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not sure if there are legal reasons as to why Yamaha has taken the stance that they’ve taken. One thing that I’ve personally experienced in a different industry, is that when my builder built me a new home in Texas 5 years ago, there were many items that were not covered under warranty that had me shaking my head, BUT, the builder responded to all of them saying “Although this is not a warrantable item, as a courtesy, we will correct it for you.” I kind of expected that Yamaha would be able to address this in a similar manner.

Ok, so this is what we know so far.

1. Swatski’s tower almost killed him. The female threads in the tower stripped.

2. Yamaha says that the root cause is a cross-threaded bolt.

3. Yamaha has not shared their report with Swatski.

4. Yamaha is not going to help Swatski.

5. 4wheeldeal shared that one of his bolts was cross-threaded when he received his new AR, and Yamaha corrected it under warranty.

6. ThatJeepGuy had to replace one of his bolts because it apparently stripped.

7. MajorSmackdown’s bolts were loose after the crossing.

8. Mine were tight after the crossing, but I did manage to snug one down by reefing on it with one hand and turning it about 4 degrees; while doing so, I was kind of wondering if I was overtightening.

I think that many things can cause these bolts to back out:

1. If they’re not properly tightened to start with.

2. Temperature fluctuations.

3. Vibrations and forces from towing, and regular use.

I think that these bolts can be easily cross-threaded, especially by someone who does not care about the boat who may just be going through the motions while doing their job; I say this because I think that these boats have too many minor quality issues when they leave the factory/dealership. If a customer receives their boat with cross-threaded bolts, how are they to know any different?

I think that if the bolts are not cross-threaded and they are tight, there will be no issues with the tower. If there is movement, then the tower will fail via the same mechanism as a slide hammer. If the scenario involves a cross-threaded bolt, then the failure will happen quicker as the threads are already compromised.

I doubt that any dealership has the ability to properly diagnose the root cause in Swatski’s case. I would expect that testing to see if the material hardness of the male and female surfaces is in spec, and verifying that the diameters of the bolt and nut are in spec should be done as a minimum. If I were Swatski, I’d consider taking this to an independent lab to have it analyzed, but this would be destructive. As an extra aside, I once worked in a factory that made aluminum parts for the auto industry; all of the parts were heat treated in order to harden the aluminum after tooling was done. Improper heat treating could be a likely root cause.

As a minimum, I hope that Yamaha will notify all of its dealerships of the risk of cross-threading, and of the importance of making sure that the tower fasteners are appropriately tightened, and that this important information is properly communicated to all AR customers. I believe that Swatski already mentioned that a warning label could help highlight the risk.

Lastly, I think that Yamaha is making a big error in judgement in not helping correct Swatski’s situation. Yamaha could learn a thing or two from Shoreland’r and from Carlisle when it comes to standing behind their product and fostering customer loyalty. On that note, @swatski might be better off working with the tower manufacturer directly.

It could have been worse, and I'm very thankful that it wasn't.
Amen to that.

 

[haknslash]

@swatski I may have missed it in the thread but any plans to contact XTP directly now that Yamaha isn't stepping up to the plate?

 

[swatski]

@Betik, you are correct, my tower seems to be ok. Other than tagging @1948Isaac for his input early on, I’ve been on the sidelines till now because I agree with most of what has been said to this point. Although I’ve been away from the quality engineering / failure analysis field for many years, I can’t help but see this situation from this perspective, but before I get into this, I need to say that I’m still shaken by what happened to @swatski and his family. He was the only adult in his boat and this could have killed/paralyzed him, in front of his kids.

I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not sure if there are legal reasons as to why Yamaha has taken the stance that they’ve taken. One thing that I’ve personally experienced in a different industry, is that when my builder built me a new home in Texas 5 years ago, there were many items that were not covered under warranty that had me shaking my head, BUT, the builder responded to all of them saying “Although this is not a warrantable item, as a courtesy, we will correct it for you.” I kind of expected that Yamaha would be able to address this in a similar manner.

Ok, so this is what we know so far.

1. Swatski’s tower almost killed him. The female threads in the tower stripped.

2. Yamaha says that the root cause is a cross-threaded bolt.

3. Yamaha has not shared their report with Swatski.

4. Yamaha is not going to help Swatski.

5. 4wheeldeal shared that one of his bolts was cross-threaded when he received his new AR, and Yamaha corrected it under warranty.

6. ThatJeepGuy had to replace one of his bolts because it apparently stripped.

7. MajorSmackdown’s bolts were loose after the crossing.

8. Mine were tight after the crossing, but I did manage to snug one down by reefing on it with one hand and turning it about 4 degrees; while doing so, I was kind of wondering if I was overtightening.

I think that many things can cause these bolts to back out:

1. If they’re not properly tightened to start with.

2. Temperature fluctuations.

3. Vibrations and forces from towing, and regular use.

I think that these bolts can be easily cross-threaded, especially by someone who does not care about the boat who may just be going through the motions while doing their job; I say this because I think that these boats have too many minor quality issues when they leave the factory/dealership. If a customer receives their boat with cross-threaded bolts, how are they to know any different?

I think that if the bolts are not cross-threaded and they are tight, there will be no issues with the tower. If there is movement, then the tower will fail via the same mechanism as a slide hammer. If the scenario involves a cross-threaded bolt, then the failure will happen quicker as the threads are already compromised.

I doubt that any dealership has the ability to properly diagnose the root cause in Swatski’s case. I would expect that testing to see if the material hardness of the male and female surfaces is in spec, and verifying that the diameters of the bolt and nut are in spec should be done as a minimum. If I were Swatski, I’d consider taking this to an independent lab to have it analyzed, but this would be destructive. As an extra aside, I once worked in a factory that made aluminum parts for the auto industry; all of the parts were heat treated in order to harden the aluminum after tooling was done. Improper heat treating could be a likely root cause.

As a minimum, I hope that Yamaha will notify all of its dealerships of the risk of cross-threading, and of the importance of making sure that the tower fasteners are appropriately tightened, and that this important information is properly communicated to all AR customers. I believe that Swatski already mentioned that a warning label could help highlight the risk.

Lastly, I think that Yamaha is making a big error in judgement in not helping correct Swatski’s situation. Yamaha could learn a thing or two from Shoreland’r and from Carlisle when it comes to standing behind their product and fostering customer loyalty. On that note, @swatski might be better off working with the tower manufacturer directly.

It could have been worse, and I'm very thankful that it wasn't.
Amen to that.

That was spoken well.
My hat's off to you, @MrMoose.

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[robert843]

I guess this pic is true they stand behind their product so much that if it breaks it can't be their fault and they will not fix it.

 

[McMark]

2. Yamaha says that the root cause is a cross-threaded bolt.

This is not the root cause. This is probably only the second "why".

 

[jsimanskey]

The system needs to be able to withstand impacts of all kinds. The conditions in that video are rough, but if the canopy can be deployed and jet skis can cross that's hardly gale conditions. I've been on rougher lakes; hell, I'm sure I've already had harder hits while trailering down county roads to the gas station.

If Yamaha feels that cross threaded bolts (user error) can lead to and cause catastrophic failure, shouldn't there be profuse warnings in the manual? Stickers all over the place near the tower?

 

[swatski]

If Yamaha feels that cross threaded bolts (user error) can lead to and cause catastrophic failure, shouldn't there be profuse warnings in the manual? Stickers all over the place near the tower?

Correct, there are no warnings in the manual. There are no instructions or specs to follow other than to tighten the knob by hand, and to re-tighten periodically. The bolts are not cross thread proof.

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[MrMoose]

@swatski I may have missed it in the thread but any plans to contact XTP directly now that Yamaha isn't stepping up to the plate?

I agree with you @haknslash. Yamaha stayed on the sideline with respect to the Shoreland'r trailer issue while Shoreland'r and Carlisle both stepped up. Perhaps the best possible solution for Swatski at this point is to have XTP step up and replace the broken parts and cover the install cost. I'm not sure how practical it would be to exchange for a pin-locking tower considering that the mounting holes may be different. If they're the same, then maybe XTP can help with a swap.

 

[swatski]

The system needs to be able to withstand impacts of all kinds. The conditions in that video are rough, but if the canopy can be deployed and jet skis can cross that's hardly gale conditions. I've been on rougher lakes; hell, I'm sure I've already had harder hits while trailering down county roads to the gas station.

I agree. It is also noteworthy (in Yamaha report - verbally communicated to me) only one of the two bolts/locks (in my fallen tower mechanism) showed evidence of partial cross threading, indicating no/not much redundancy in the design.

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