Compartment Drain Plugs?

[rkluck]

Interesting topic. I keep all my drain plugs open so the water runs out of the forward comaprtments back to the engine compartment and out. I had the drains closed at first but then I ended up with water in the ski compartment and did not like that all. I also didn't want water to just sit so somehere along the line I had to get the water back to the engine area either way. I found that the water drains pretty much all out while the boat is moving due to bow rising etc. When I tried to get the water out in the slip there was always some water left. Maybe some boats drain differently but for me I prefer the drains open. This is just what I do from experience.

 

[Addicted]

I know you're trying to think this through, so lets think about this:
How does no plugs give you MORE time?
If, as you say, a hull breech is going to sink the boat either way, then certainly having plugs out is going to speed up the process, right?

Perhaps you're thinking that you have more time before water fills the engine compartment and kills the engines? If the whole boat is going to sink either way, then who cares about the engines? Wouldn't you prefer to stay afloat as long as possible?

Perhaps you're thinking that having a little more time with the engines running will get you closer to shore? Consider all that extra water from all those open compartments will rush to the back of the boat (where the engines are) while you are racing to get back to shore. Now the engines are flooded AND you are sinking faster with all the plugs out AND its probably too much water for the bilge pump to keep up.

Compartments don't have to be sealed air-tight at the top to be effective. Consider how removing the clean-out plugs doesn't sink the boat. Those clean-out tubes are a "compartment" to contain the water and they are open at the top.

I don't understand your first comment. How is having the plugs plugs out, going to speed up the process of taking on water?

My comment about more time, was that you will have more time before loosing motor and electrical power, which in the event of a breech is the only thing that will keep you floating, or allow you time to get the boat and crew to a safe place (close to shore, a dock, the boat ramp). No power=no bilge pump, and no way to get the boat and crew to a safe place. In my opinion if you have a major failure and are taking on water this is how I see the course of action. Can I control or stop the leak? If not, are my bilge pumps keeping up enough that I can get the boat to the trailer? If not, I need to get the boat to shallow water or the beach so it will ground itself instead of sinking and putting my crew in the water.

I think you may not be thinking this all the way through (or maybe I am not, but I'm trying), having the plugs out, does not allow the boat to take on water faster than having the plugs in. All it does is keep the water in the back of the boat where your motor and electrical is sitting.

Also, a compartment does need to be sealed for it to be useful in containing a leak. That is the point of sealed compartments on a ship. We have no sealed compartments, so any leak will continue to allow water into he boat, regardless of whether the compartment plugs are installed or not. You cleanout plugs analogy does not really come into play here. If we had a sealed engine compartment, and had all of the internal plugs installed, then the engine compartment would fill and assuming the boat had the displacement to carry the weight of a full engine compartment, then the boat would continue to float, but without power. Our boats are not designed like that. Installed plugs do not contain a leak, so what is the point? I have tried to have an open mind regarding this subject, but have not heard an argument that "holds water" (sorry).

I just want to add that as I said in my OP, I leave the plugs out so that water that makes its way into the ski locker and/or fuel compartment can drain to the bilge and be removed by the pump. I do not leave them out because I think that will keep me from sinking. My point is that I do not see the benefit in leaving them installed, so why not get rid of the water from the ski locker. To keep from sinking I added more battery power and a second, much larger bilge pump (2000gph). That is how I intend to buy me additional time to work through the problem, or get to safety.

 

[jetboater4life]

I like to keep my plugs in so I can fill my compartments with water for ballast

 

[Addicted]

I like to keep my plugs in so I can fill my compartments with water for ballast

Now your thinking! Cheapest mod you can make.

 

[maboat]

Well, it certainly would be a much better conversation over beers instead of keyboards. Hard to get ideas across sometimes, but it definitely changes things if the objective is to deal with water that come from the top (waves, rain, swimmers) or water that comes from below (leaks).

Also, a compartment does need to be sealed for it to be useful in containing a leak. That is the point of sealed compartments on a ship. We have no sealed compartments, so any leak will continue to allow water into he boat,.

Think about this: how you can remove a cleanout plug while the boat is in the water yet the boat doesn't sink. When you fully understand why that works, you will then understand why separate compartments that are not air-tight can still contain a leak. The cleanout tube is like a small compartment that contains the water which enters from a big hole in the hull when you pull the cleanout plug. It is completely open at the top, yet the water is contained.

Clearly there ARE reasons to take the drain plugs out. We need them to drain those compartments because water does have ways to get in there from the top. I've been trying to figure out if there would be a down-side to having one-way drains instead of plugs because it seems to me that would be the best solution overall.

 

[Addicted]

Well, it certainly would be a much better conversation over beers instead of keyboards. Hard to get ideas across sometimes, but it definitely changes things if the objective is to deal with water that come from the top (waves, rain, swimmers) or water that comes from below (leaks).


Think about this: how you can remove a cleanout plug while the boat is in the water yet the boat doesn't sink. When you fully understand why that works, you will then understand why separate compartments that are not air-tight can still contain a leak (or hole in the hull)

Can you explain it to me as opposed to assuming I am too stupid to understand? I am very open to understanding your theory regarding the cleanout tube, but you have not shared it yet. Additionally I do not see how it fits in this conversation, but possibly I am missing something. The cleanout tube is obviously not under pressure. Drill a 6" diameter hole in the bottom of your boat where displacement is taking place and see what happens.

You say above "separate compartments that are not air-tight can still contain a leak (or hole in the boat)". That is really the entire point here, so I would really like to know your theory. You are just making that comment without explaining how/why you feel that way. That is what I am hoping to learn here. If I am doing it wrong, I would like to know so I can be more safe. Your comments are not making any points though.

 

[Addicted]

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm This an article that read a couple years ago, which I found interesting and helpful. It was after reading this that I upgraded my battery power and bilge pump capacity. Off topic regarding the original point of this thread, so I apologize if I am changing the subject, but considering where this thread has gone, I thought it may be an interesting read for some.

No battery power=no bilge pump. Motors not running shortens the duration that the batteries will be charged. Additionally, as soon as the batteries/major electronics are submerged, the pumps will be dead anyways. Therefore keeping the water below the motors and electrical for as long as possible is crucial in an emergency.

 

[cane.mba]

hmmmm, this looks like it has all the makin's of a good thread...I'll just cozy on up here with ma coffee and see how it boils down.

I had no idea, I really thought it was a simple question. I for one leave my boat in the water May-Sep, and the only plug I take out is the ski locker. We store our skis, ropes, etc there and a lot of water accumulates quickly. I never thought of opening other down stream plugs. I am going to scrub the interior this week, maybe I'll fill the ski locker and see where it goes, removing one plug at a time....

 

[Lspeedss]

@cane.mba ..yours was a simple question.. answers...Not so much. Lol. With all of us thinking out loud it is obviously a questionable topic for all of us on what is right or wrong.. we all want to be safe..right guys?. That said.. yours is probably the best way to confirm where these compartment plugs travel to.
Please fill us in on your findings.

 

[maboat]

Can you explain it to me as opposed to assuming I am too stupid to understand? I am very open to understanding your theory regarding the cleanout tube.

Its not my theory. Its physics. I did not explain in great detail because I assumed you do understand the physics going on here. I was NOT assuming you are too stupid to understand. Sorry if it came across that way.

As far as drain plugs go, its totally up to you for your boat. I'm not saying plugs in or out is right or wrong. But the laws of physics are hard to break.

This will blow your mind, but the bilge pump does not die as soon as the batteries are submerged. However, I don't want to offend you with my explanation so maybe somebody else can be better at explaining it.

 

[Zarrella]

Well right or wrong....my plugs stay out. I dont like holding all of that surface water that makes it way into the boat. Hey if I'm wrong and I sink well that's what insurance is for.

 

[Glassman]

Its not my theory. Its physics. I did not explain in great detail because I assumed you do understand the physics going on here. I was NOT assuming you are too stupid to understand. Sorry if it came across that way.

As far as drain plugs go, its totally up to you for your boat. I'm not saying plugs in or out is right or wrong. But the laws of physics are hard to break.

This will blow your mind, but the bilge pump does not die as soon as the batteries are submerged. However, I don't want to offend you with my explanation so maybe somebody else can be better at explaining it.

It's magic.

 

[Addicted]

Its not my theory. Its physics. I did not explain in great detail because I assumed you do understand the physics going on here. I was NOT assuming you are too stupid to understand. Sorry if it came across that way.

As far as drain plugs go, its totally up to you for your boat. I'm not saying plugs in or out is right or wrong. But the laws of physics are hard to break.

This will blow your mind, but the bilge pump does not die as soon as the batteries are submerged. However, I don't want to offend you with my explanation so maybe somebody else can be better at explaining it.

You have not explained a single statement that you have made. I suspect that means you are not entirely sure yourself.

 

[BoaterGuy]

I think you guys are talking about two different things. What situation are you debating? Batteries could operate under water in fresh water but may not do so in salt water.

You both need to be more specific in what you are explaining.

For instance if the back of the boat is taking on water, having the cleanout plugs in or out will not make a difference.... etc..

 

[Addicted]

I think you guys are talking about two different things. What situation are you debating? Batteries could operate under water in fresh water but may not do so in salt water.

You both need to be more specific in what you are explaining.

For instance if the back of the boat is taking on water, having the cleanout plugs in or out will not make a difference.... etc..

@RobA , sorry I have bounced around a bit. As far as power, my point was simply that bilge pumps only last as long as you have access to power. If the engine compartment is flooded, you are surely close to the point where the bilge pump is done, weather it be from the motor no longer providing charging power (adding to the time that the pump will run), or the electrical system shorting out. Your definitely correct that batteries under water will still run the pump, but for how long?

My question really is just what is the benefit of leaving the drain plugs installed? I don't see one, so I leave them out so that water that ends up in the locker can drain. However, if I were to here a point where having them installed would be a benefit in an emergency, then I would leave them in. So far the only real reason I have heard is that it is because the book says so. Well, the book also says to slide in your cleanout plug, give it 2 pulls, and your good. I think we all know that is not true. With as many people that are on this forum with the opinion that they need to be installed, I suspect there is a good reason, I am just curious what it is.

 

[upperdeck]

Here is my read on the situation.

Picture a bathtub floating on a lake. If the stopper is IN the tub, the tub will float even with the tub filled ALMOST completely with water. However, pull the plug, and the tub will quickly go to the bottom.

If you have a breach in the hull of the boat, the only thing keeping it from going to the bottom is if ALL your plugs are in.

 

[Addicted]

Here is my read on the situation.

Picture a bathtub floating on a lake. If the stopper is IN the tub, the tub will float even with the tub filled ALMOST completely with water. However, pull the plug, and the tub will quickly go to the bottom.

If you have a breach in the hull of the boat, the only thing keeping it from going to the bottom is if ALL your plugs are in.

That is a good point, but I think the only plug that falls under that category is the drain plug in the transom. That one must be in, no argument there. If you were to take that same bathtub and put 4 10" tall dividers across it with plugs in them, then pulled the main bathtub plug, wouldn't the water just fill up higher that the 10" and spill into the next "compartment" still sinking the boat, I mean tub?

This is actually the way the titanic went down. The front of the boat was sectioned off into chambers, but the compartments were not sealed at the top. When the ship hit the iceberg it was towards the bow and ruptured a few of the chambers. The captain did not panic because he thought the chambers would save him. Meanwhile the water was filling each chamber, then spilling over to the next one back. Eventually the bow became so heavy that it broke off. The documentary that I saw, said that was a turning point in how water tight chambers were designed in ships. They are now sealed so that as long as the boat had the displacement to hold the weight of the water in however many chambers were compromised, then the leak will be contained and the boat would not sink. It seems like our boats fall under that same theory in a much smaller scale?

 

[upperdeck]

I agree, except that our boats are designed with a psuedo double hull. The interior hull being the one with all the drain plugs we are discussing.

Either way, if you are continuously taking on water so bad that the bilge pumps can't keep up, you're screwed. Which is why I have two bilge pumps. I believe plugs in gives you time, nothing more. Less time with plugs out.

 

[maboat]

You have not explained a single statement that you have made. I suspect that means you are not entirely sure yourself.

Wow, really?

I am entirely sure of how the physics works. I'm entirely sure I don't like the tone of that remark. Go ahead and leave all your plugs out. You'll be fine.

 

[txav8r]

Man, am I glad I was occupied with other stuff! I am guessing you guys are pretty convinced up front, even though you say your open to what may be the reasons. @upperdeck is right on the money...and, if you prevent water in a compromised hull from invading all the space in the boat, it has to fill the void of the bilge first before it goes elsewhere, and the only way for it to go elsewhere is through a small opening in the back of the engine compartment that connects that lower bilge to the engine compartment, where the bilge pump sits. It is a small semi circular opening and sure, it will back fill fast. Your upgraded pump @Addicted, will only pump what it will pump, 500/1000/1500gph or whatever it is.

There is an exception to every rule I am sure, maybe more than one. But going with the odds, you would be better off plugs in on the water, and out when water is present in the compartments or may be present. That means that if you store the boat outside where the cover may be compromised, you should leave all the plugs out.

Now, on my 230, the ski locker did not drain into the fuel compartment, it drained into that area below the ski compartment and ran under the fuel compartment back to the back bilge area. We are talking about an area no more than 1" high. It is just the space between the floor level hull section and the outer hull. It isn't designed to hold water, just drain it. If a breach allows water to force itself into that entire area with plugs open, it fills the open compartments. And another reason you don't want water forward in this boat...the water filling the forward end will lift the stern out of the water, possibly removing the bilge pump from the equation.

Yamaha doesn't say leave all compartments open when out of the water, they say they should be open if water is present. I add that if water "may" be present, they should be left open. None of this is an argument. Any of us can come up with a scenario that it may be better in or out in that scenario. But I have had interaction with most all of you and know some of you personally. I can say that while it may be that one of us may scratch our heads in disbelief, that disbelief is probably that we can't seem to communicate with the other what we mean, not that the other is stupid. I have been accused a number of times of arrogance just because of my writings. And I am not any different than anyone else, and can become defensive.

I just don't think you can account for all situations, and rational of one mind versus the rational of and entire engineering, R&D, legal, marketing, etc., departments, and as one mind, I always know I may misinterpret. And that is when I look to what the consensus is. As some others mentioned, it is your boat, you are the captain, if you feel you can explain your position in a court of law if it ever came to that, then by all means, no worries. But my fear is that I overlook something when if I operating outside of SOP (standard operating procedure)...and that is going to be critiqued by the masses. So if you run outside of SOP, then you will lose the argument whether or not your opinion was right or wrong, because you become a test pilot when you disregard SOP and go off on your own. Just the way it is. Anyway, I see this thread as educational for all of us. And maybe through continued comments, something becomes more clear for me, who knows!