EV discussion - hate or love?

[zpaul]

Honestly, I think car sales is just full of snakes that think they're the slickest person ever born. They honestly think that they're gonna talk people into paying whatever they want because they're sooo slick.

I agree though,iof dealers would just put the best price they can actually offer (not inudimg discounts like you need to be military for this one, current leasee for this one, professional mime for that one, etc)

What irritates me more than anything is all the other bs fees that continually increase. Used to be $250 was a high doc fee. Now some places are charging $2k. Wtf is that even for? That's part of your doing business. Oh this is our "advantage fee" it covers a buncha bullshit that adds no value and we probably didn't even do like uv marking the VIN on the car.

Last time I paid $500 in doc fees, since they had those fancy digital tables.
And it's all BS, says I can reject to pay those fees since they are not required by law, but if you try it they do not sell the car. Not obligatory my a$$
Though I don't think dealers make money on selling new cars, may be financing, add ons, warranty, trade ins? Otherwise there is not much profit there, especially when it sits on the lot for 6 months. And I do not buy any of their addons, everything the add is at least 50% cheaper to get on your own.

 

[BlkGS]

Last time I paid $500 in doc fees, since they had those fancy digital tables.
And it's all BS, says I can reject to pay those fees since they are not required by law, but if you try it they do not sell the car. Not obligatory my a$$
Though I don't think dealers make money on selling new cars, may be financing, add ons, warranty, trade ins? Otherwise there is not much profit there, especially when it sits on the lot for 6 months. And I do not buy any of their addons, everything the add is at least 50% cheaper to get on your own.

That's definitely true, they make a lot less money on selling a new car, especially ones they have to discount to sell. The manufacturer gives them a certain amount of profit, and if they have to discount to sell, that eats into it. They make their money on all the ads on crap, junk fees, financing, all that stuff. Had one dealer tell me that I had to make 3 payments before I could refinance. It was a bold faced lie, he just knew they wouldn't get paid for the extra points they tacked onto my rate if I did refinance immediately (which I did).


Right now the risk for them is pay on a floorplan or sell a car. Lots of dealers will sit around thinking they'll sell things for way over what they should be worth. They will keep racking up finance charges and never make a penny on a car instead of just selling them at a discount.

 

[2kwik4u]

They just scheduled a Monday delivery in Cleveland. Holy balls it's moving quick. I'll be impressed if they can work the lease/payoff paperwork that fast.

@adrianp89 Guess I get to eat my hat on this one. All the paperwork went through in about 45min this afternoon once we got trade info on the Q7 from the existing bank. Delivery is scheduled for Monday afternoon in Cleveland, and they've confirmed the truck will be arriving in Cleveland (on transport now) tomorrow.

More details as they arise. So far, easiest car I've bought yet.

 

[BlkGS]

@adrianp89 Guess I get to eat my hat on this one. All the paperwork went through in about 45min this afternoon once we got trade info on the Q7 from the existing bank. Delivery is scheduled for Monday afternoon in Cleveland, and they've confirmed the truck will be arriving in Cleveland (on transport now) tomorrow.

More details as they arise. So far, easiest car I've bought yet.

Will you have to charge during that trip, or is it within range?

 

[2kwik4u]

Will you have to charge during that trip, or is it within range?

Depends on charge level when I pick it up. Cleveland is only ~190mi from me. Well within range of a single charge. Most reports are in the high 290, low 310 for range on 100% charge.

I got the A/T tires, so it'll likely be closer to 290 for mine.

If I do need to charge there are multiple DCFC stations between the service center and home. Most are less than a mile off the interstate.

 

[BlkGS]

Depends on charge level when I pick it up. Cleveland is only ~190mi from me. Well within range of a single charge. Most reports are in the high 290, low 310 for range on 100% charge.

I got the A/T tires, so it'll likely be closer to 290 for mine.

If I do need to charge there are multiple DCFC stations between the service center and home. Most are less than a mile off the interstate.

I would have thought that it'd have more range, that's basically the same than the extended range Lightning. I figured it'd be high 300s, if not 400.

This is totally uneducated and based exclusively off people complaining that the lightning had poor range because it wasn't a dedicated EV, and the GM EV trucks being like low to mid 400 miles of range.

 

[2kwik4u]

I would have thought that it'd have more range, that's basically the same than the extended range Lightning. I figured it'd be high 300s, if not 400.

This is totally uneducated and based exclusively off people complaining that the lightning had poor range because it wasn't a dedicated EV, and the GM EV trucks being like low to mid 400 miles of range.

For a little context.....I rarely get more than 310-330 out of the Q7. I've seen 360 a few times, but that's like 100% interstate with cruise set at 65-70. That's on a 21gal tank of 93.

New truck has a 131kWh battery, I think the same as the F150 LR. I should be in the high 200 low 300 range with mine. Likely lower because of the wheel/tire package. Lightnings come pretty exclusively with street tires I think.

The second gen R1S have an available 145kWh pack, and the dual motor variants will sneak into the 400 range with street tires. The Silverado EV has a monstrous 205kWh battery and gets into the mid 400 range.

In general, most of the EV pickups are getting between 2.1 and 2.4 miles per kWh. For comparison a Tesla model 3 will get close to 3.3 mi/kWh....... Trucks still have poor efficiency when compared to cars, even for EVs.

So, yea is not the best range possible of all EV trucks available. It's the mid range battery size, with the small motors so it's in the to of the middle so to speak.. It's also completely serviceable for 90+% of my driving. Still going to need a single stop between Louisville and Buffalo. Same as the Audi. I'll likely make it 2 or 3 shorter ones to break up the day though, and just plan those around charging locations.

Also, keep in mind, the new truck is driving almost 300mi on the energy equivalent of 3.9 gallons of fuel.

 

[BlkGS]

For a little context.....I rarely get more than 310-330 out of the Q7. I've seen 360 a few times, but that's like 100% interstate with cruise set at 65-70. That's on a 21gal tank of 93.

New truck has a 131kWh battery, I think the same as the F150 LR. I should be in the high 200 low 300 range with mine. Likely lower because of the wheel/tire package. Lightnings come pretty exclusively with street tires I think.

The second gen R1S have an available 145kWh pack, and the dual motor variants will sneak into the 400 range with street tires. The Silverado EV has a monstrous 205kWh battery and gets into the mid 400 range.

In general, most of the EV pickups are getting between 2.1 and 2.4 miles per kWh. For comparison a Tesla model 3 will get close to 3.3 mi/kWh....... Trucks still have poor efficiency when compared to cars, even for EVs.

So, yea is not the best range possible of all EV trucks available. It's the mid range battery size, with the small motors so it's in the to of the middle so to speak.. It's also completely serviceable for 90+% of my driving. Still going to need a single stop between Louisville and Buffalo. Same as the Audi. I'll likely make it 2 or 3 shorter ones to break up the day though, and just plan those around charging locations.

Also, keep in mind, the new truck is driving almost 300mi on the energy equivalent of 3.9 gallons of fuel.

That makes sense. I just assumed it had more range than it does.

That said, I agree, it's plenty of range. The people on the lightning forum seem to think the 220ish miles of the standard battery is enough. I think this obsession with huge batteries for range is silly, what they should be focusing on is ways to extend the range via conventional means, like a range extender, or a smaller battery pack that can be swapped quickly and easily. Or just more PHEVs.

 

[2kwik4u]

That makes sense. I just assumed it had more range than it does.

That said, I agree, it's plenty of range. The people on the lightning forum seem to think the 220ish miles of the standard battery is enough. I think this obsession with huge batteries for range is silly, what they should be focusing on is ways to extend the range via conventional means, like a range extender, or a smaller battery pack that can be swapped quickly and easily. Or just more PHEVs.

I would go a step further (and I might eat my words on this after some time as an owner), I think the obsession with long range in general is a bit silly.

This comes from the observation of various tank sizes on vehicles resulting in the same relative range. The Q7 has a 20gal tank, Rogue has an 18gal tank. Both go about the same distance. Seems like the industry kind of settled in that 300-350mi range for most vehicles. Not sure why we need to really deviate from that.

Same premise as pull-in vs pull-through gas pump/chargers. We had this figured out, why did we change?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

On a car, extended range wouldn’t be a big deal for me, BUT, I love have an extended range on my tow vehicle when towing and the mileage drops. Really like having a 33 gallon tank in my Ram. Large enough tank that I can usually gas up at my convenience.

Jim

 

[adrianp89]

I would go a step further (and I might eat my words on this after some time as an owner), I think the obsession with long range in general is a bit silly.

This comes from the observation of various tank sizes on vehicles resulting in the same relative range. The Q7 has a 20gal tank, Rogue has an 18gal tank. Both go about the same distance. Seems like the industry kind of settled in that 300-350mi range for most vehicles. Not sure why we need to really deviate from that.

Same premise as pull-in vs pull-through gas pump/chargers. We had this figured out, why did we change?

Curious on your thoughts on this in a year. I always order our cars with the bigger tank. Less trips to gas station is nice, more importantly in case of emergency I can get pretty far north without stopping.

 

[zpaul]

On a car, extended range wouldn’t be a big deal for me, BUT, I love have an extended range on my tow vehicle when towing and the mileage drops. Really like having a 33 gallon tank in my Ram. Large enough tank that I can usually gas up at my convenience.

Jim

in that regard love F150 36gallon tank. Gets me 700 miles on interstate vs 400 on highlander.

Curious if anyone looked at Chevy Silverado EV with 450miles range

 

[BlkGS]

Curious on your thoughts on this in a year. I always order our cars with the bigger tank. Less trips to gas station is nice, more importantly in case of emergency I can get pretty far north without stopping.

Agreed. I think the difference is if the car is just a runabout, or if it's something that you would rely on. I think being in Florida our outlook is skewed a little. When the big one hits, and you gotta bail out, a huge tank means you can get out and not have to fight for fuel.

It's also super convenient to go 3 weeks or a month without getting gas. But again, PHEV solves this.

On an EV you can "fuel up"at home ( and should), so it doesn't need a ton of range IMO. The tech is great for use as a little runabout, but not ideal for long range use

 

[adrianp89]

Agreed. I think the difference is if the car is just a runabout, or if it's something that you would rely on. I think being in Florida our outlook is skewed a little. When the big one hits, and you gotta bail out, a huge tank means you can get out and not have to fight for fuel.

It's also super convenient to go 3 weeks or a month without getting gas. But again, PHEV solves this.

On an EV you can "fuel up"at home ( and should), so it doesn't need a ton of range IMO. The tech is great for use as a little runabout, but not ideal for long range use

On another note. The EV fire debate is about to heat up again. Tons of houses burned down here over the past few days. If I still owned own and was in an evac zone, the car would be miles from my house.

 

[zpaul]

On another note. The EV fire debate is about to heat up again. Tons of houses burned down here over the past few days. If I still owned own and was in an evac zone, the car would be miles from my house.

EV hits salt water and it is done. Would not advise to park it in the garage.

 

[2kwik4u]

Curious on your thoughts on this in a year. I always order our cars with the bigger tank. Less trips to gas station is nice, more importantly in case of emergency I can get pretty far north without stopping.

I suspect I'll have lots of thoughts on this in a year. Look for many rants and raves in the coming weeks

I'm hoping that charging at home most of the time, as well as geographical changes to my travel routines is going to make it work out acceptably. I'm doing lots of planning now, but I think once I do a trip once or twice that planning/anxiety will calm down a bit. It's all VERY new to me now. I'm also somewhat particular in planning and data recording/analysis, and I think that is adding anxiety to the experience initially.

I'm cautiously optimistic currently.

in that regard love F150 36gallon tank. Gets me 700 miles on interstate vs 400 on highlander.

Curious if anyone looked at Chevy Silverado EV with 450miles range

I had a VERY early reservation for an RST. Interesting enough I cancelled the reservation almost a year ago because I got tired of waiting and never thought I could afford a $100k vehicle. A lots changed since then. I sat in a Sierra EV a few weeks ago. Same basic layout as the Silverado. Wasn't really a fan of it. Also The Sierra EV felt effing ginormous. Like 2500 class dimensions. I have a '15 Sierra and the EV felt much larger than I remember that one.

In terms of range, especially when towing, it's currently the king of the mountain in the EV Pickup segment. I'm not certain my body has EVER let me sit in a car for more than ~350mi or so. In general, I run out of patience, bladder before any of my vehicles have run out of fuel. So, even a 400mi range feels excessive for me, much less 700mi.

Just went back and looked at the data from our tow to FL and back in June. Had a low of 98mi between stops, and a high of 235mi. Rivian should get me around 145mi between charges while towing with 15% reserve. Checked all the Non-towing trips from this year. had a high of 265mi and a low of 145mi. Rivian should cover that acceptably. Data appears to support the premise that my bladder (or my back) is the current limiting factor to trip "leg" distance.

 

[2kwik4u]

EV hits salt water and it is done. Would not advise to park it in the garage.

I think the submersion and agitation (from waves/winds) is likely the bigger issue than the salt. Salt brine that's put on the road is around 40% salt. The ocean is only about 3.5% salt.

I agree with you and @adrianp89 If I expected a flooded garage I wouldn't be leaving the EV behind during evacuation.

 

[zpaul]

I suspect I'll have lots of thoughts on this in a year. Look for many rants and raves in the coming weeks

I'm hoping that charging at home most of the time, as well as geographical changes to my travel routines is going to make it work out acceptably. I'm doing lots of planning now, but I think once I do a trip once or twice that planning/anxiety will calm down a bit. It's all VERY new to me now. I'm also somewhat particular in planning and data recording/analysis, and I think that is adding anxiety to the experience initially.

I'm cautiously optimistic currently.



I had a VERY early reservation for an RST. Interesting enough I cancelled the reservation almost a year ago because I got tired of waiting and never thought I could afford a $100k vehicle. A lots changed since then. I sat in a Sierra EV a few weeks ago. Same basic layout as the Silverado. Wasn't really a fan of it. Also The Sierra EV felt effing ginormous. Like 2500 class dimensions. I have a '15 Sierra and the EV felt much larger than I remember that one.

In terms of range, especially when towing, it's currently the king of the mountain in the EV Pickup segment. I'm not certain my body has EVER let me sit in a car for more than ~350mi or so. In general, I run out of patience, bladder before any of my vehicles have run out of fuel. So, even a 400mi range feels excessive for me, much less 700mi.

Just went back and looked at the data from our tow to FL and back in June. Had a low of 98mi between stops, and a high of 235mi. Rivian should get me around 145mi between charges while towing with 15% reserve. Checked all the Non-towing trips from this year. had a high of 265mi and a low of 145mi. Rivian should cover that acceptably. Data appears to support the premise that my bladder (or my back) is the current limiting factor to trip "leg" distance.

Lately putting 4k a month on my truck, mostly weekend driving. So really appreciate big range. Otherwise, I agree with you, I had Tesla for local drives and it was perfect, had more range then I needed. Best part never visited gas station. 95% of the time was home charging.

 

[Sherwood]

I think the submersion and agitation (from waves/winds) is likely the bigger issue than the salt. Salt brine that's put on the road is around 40% salt. The ocean is only about 3.5% salt.

I agree with you and @adrianp89 If I expected a flooded garage I wouldn't be leaving the EV behind during evacuation.

Seen actual salt battery's on Amazon for sale now.
Price on lithium battery's is dropping fast.
I expect safer chemistry will be developed eventually.

 

[2kwik4u]

On a car, extended range wouldn’t be a big deal for me, BUT, I love have an extended range on my tow vehicle when towing and the mileage drops. Really like having a 33 gallon tank in my Ram. Large enough tank that I can usually gas up at my convenience.

Jim

Thought I responded to this one, guess I missed it. I agree when towing, that huge energy storage is an advantage.

We went to Douglas Lake a few years back with some friends. I pulled my AR190 with a 5.3L/6spd Sierra. Neighbor pulled his 24ft Tri-Toon with a 5.3/8spd Silverado. I got around 13mpg, he was getting an abysmal 9mpg (His boat sat tall on the trailer and was like towing a billboard worth of air resistance). I want to say he got somewhere around 180-200mi to a tank of fuel. The stops were more frequent than we had anticipated and the drive took longer. He also had a bigger issue finding convenient fuel stops where he could get a 35+ft trailer in/out.

When towing heavy or far (or with really poor efficiency), that big tank is absolutely worth while.