EV discussion - hate or love?

[BlkGS]

It sucks that you're going through this... Again.

I think the frustration for you is you bought into the Rivian being less hassle because it had less moving parts and less consumables and all that other stuff they sell EVs on. And that's kind of a bit of a stretch, because instead of having a lock rod that wears out of whatever, you have a line of software that causes you issues, or a botched OTA update, or whatever else. When you spend that kind of money, and are sold a bill of goods of "easy, no hassle driving", and it isn't, it's fair to be pissed off.

Customer service is great and all, but you know what's better than great customer service? Robust products where you never have to use customer service. You see it all the time with stuff made in China. You buy it, it fails, but they send you a new replacement no questions asked and people are like "great customer service". Guess what, the product is still trash, and they just sent you another identical piece of trash. Sure you're happy short term because you got a new one, but it's just gonna fail too.

 

[2kwik4u]

It sucks that you're going through this... Again.

I think the frustration for you is you bought into the Rivian being less hassle because it had less moving parts and less consumables and all that other stuff they sell EVs on. And that's kind of a bit of a stretch, because instead of having a lock rod that wears out of whatever, you have a line of software that causes you issues, or a botched OTA update, or whatever else. When you spend that kind of money, and are sold a bill of goods of "easy, no hassle driving", and it isn't, it's fair to be pissed off.

Customer service is great and all, but you know what's better than great customer service? Robust products where you never have to use customer service. You see it all the time with stuff made in China. You buy it, it fails, but they send you a new replacement no questions asked and people are like "great customer service". Guess what, the product is still trash, and they just sent you another identical piece of trash. Sure you're happy short term because you got a new one, but it's just gonna fail too.

Like this?

And you're not wrong. The frustration was that I didn't have time, energy, or (I'm gonna piss off someone) bandwidth, to deal with these issues. Still don't and they're still agitating. Q7 never left me walking either.......I'm sitting here researching LandCruisers currently Boring as snot, but tough as nails.

 

[BlkGS]

Like this?

And you're not wrong. The frustration was that I didn't have time, energy, or (I'm gonna piss off someone) bandwidth, to deal with these issues. Still don't and they're still agitating. Q7 never left me walking either.......I'm sitting here researching LandCruisers currently Boring as snot, but tough as nails.

You'd need a older 5.7L Land Cruiser for that. The new ones are questionable with the turbo 4. Or you could go GX550 and also have a questionable V6 turbo.

I think the best days of reliability are behind us sadly. So you either buy something a little older and less integrated like a GX460 that will run forever... Or you suffer through the issues of a newer car with more flash but less substance.

Do you want to just drive and turn off your brain about reliability in an older Lexus, or do you want to marvel at being able to play long on your car's touchscreen.

All that said, if you had a BMW like me your issues would likely not be handled as conveniently. If my BMW was bricked I'd be SOL until they had a loaner available which is usually a couple weeks. Arguably the risk of it being just dead is lower, but ya know, it's not like they could have had you driving any faster.

That's why I have 3 spare cars for me. It's just smart. Maybe I need a 4th, lol.

 

[Bluewater272]

I'm going to go with a hard disagree here.

I used to hate constant updates on software. Things like office, or android, or any other software really, I would turn them off as soon as I got them. I bought a feature set, look, and feel. I want to keep that. I don't want the constant change. Rivian has already had a couple updates, and for the most part have been little or no value add. This update was to allow the changing of tires sizes by the user, and to enable the mirrors to turn down in reverse. Truck didn't have those features when I bought it. I don't want them, didn't ask for them, and now have to risk issues with the implementation for it. While they usually are not a problem, they're clearly a risk, and for me, they aren't worth it.

I also agree with @BlkGS it sets the mentality of Minimum Viable Product. If you're to argue that there are "critical security and software updates" baked into the OTA, the obvious counterpoint is "why didn't they do it right the first time". I get that new tech comes along that might pose security issues, and you CAN patch for that, but send me a USB stick in the mail, or hell, put the instructions online, let me download, and let me run a physical update on it. The rest of this "We can add features along the way" just begs the question of why wasn't this feature important the first time, and does the customer really want it, and what risks are they exposing along the way.

OTA updates have been a nuisance before I had the truck, and they continue to be a nuisance now that my truck gets them.

I'd wager your opinion of OTA vehicles updates would be different had you bought a different EV, but sure.

 

[CarolinaJet]

I’m sorry to hear about this experience because I really want to like rivian and support some new blood in the auto industry, but you’re experiencing all the stuff that I worry about with any new technology a) they haven’t worked out the kinks yet and b) they’re rushing too fast to get updates out. I work in software and it is a common pattern. We have entered a new paradigm of “fix forward” that has some drawbacks.

I work on some government solutions and the government requirements are written from the perspective of “if you get all the bugs out at the start and then heavily restrict changes, it’ll stay bug free”; all systems were more commonly isolated and locked down when those were written. But the modern approach to software is leveraging shared services (for efficiency) that get constant updates, and each service is in the same pattern of doing frequent updates. So if you consume that service, you gotta take those updates to stay current. To stop doing that in a leveraged service model leaves you with all the already-discovered often public exploits and weaknesses in each of those leveraged services. So much time is spent staying current that you gotta wonder if it’s actually more efficient than rolling your own.

On the flip side to your rivian experience, my wife’s 2018 Tesla that we bought new has had dozens of new features added over the last 7 years. There have been some bumps, but thankfully not what you experienced, never had to walk. It has over 70k miles. My 2020 Tesla that I bought used has over 60k miles and during my ownership the story is the same.

My (former) 2018 F150 on the other hand, had comically out of date software and maps, clunky bluetooth and dated graphics. And it had a well-documented cam phaser design flaw that ford fixed under warranty at great expense to them.

So it’s not just the tech that doesn’t work out sometimes, but the tech is easier and quicker/cheaper to fix when it does go wrong. This is my hypothesis of why we end up with more technology than we want: because it de-risks more expensive manual solutions.

Case in point. I HATE that to change the suspension settings on the Tesla, which I do while in the move based on road conditions, takes several maddening clicks on the touch screen, usually followed by a “f*ck you, car”. But if they had done this with buttons or a dial, that physical control is another point of failure, and it limits what they can change down the road (three buttons=Three, not four, settings forever). So I don’t like it but I see why they did it.

I think the solution is to go get that fox body mustang I’ve always wanted, put on some flowmasters, maybe a mild cam and short shift kit. And go drive that when I’ve had enough tech for the day.

 

[2kwik4u]

I'd wager your opinion of OTA vehicles updates would be different had you bought a different EV, but sure.

I'm not sure really. I know other carmakers have less issues with OTA updates, however Rivian (in general) doesn't have issues with updates. Also, looks like my issue this time wasn't related to OTA updates either, it was a mistake by the tech that replaced the 12V battery.

My distaste for constant updates has been around far longer than just my truck doing it. I used to turn updates off on my phone back when I had a blackberry, I would also turn off updates on my Windows OS machines, as well as any other piece of software within them. The constant change for the sake of change is annoying at best, and often times more disrupting than it's worth. That sentiment continues into the vehicle I drive now, and I'm not super happy about that.

 

[BlkGS]

The BMW forums are full of complaints about bad stuff happening on OTA updates. The follow up is usually a number of other posters saying "didn't happen to mine!" That's the really worst part, sometimes it just doesn't work for whatever unknown reason, and it's way too expensive for them to figure out why that happened with all the external variables involved. So it's just a risk.

Personally, I prefer no OTA updates. I buy the vehicle as it sits, I will gladly take no added stuff if it means no added risks of stuff no longer working. Get it right, release it, and then leave it alone.

 

[2kwik4u]

Walked out from getting a haircut and found this. Mines the one on the left. So much for having something unique in the area.

 

[buckbuck]

Well, it looks like your license plate location is different. So there's that.

 

[2kwik4u]

Maybe I'll go back to a GMC when the Rivian lease is up? Prices look (I hate to say this) reasonable, considering the current market. AT4 trim looks interesting.

2026 GMC Sierra EV Drops Base Price by $28,000, Adds AT4 Trim

The Sierra EV has more battery choices than before, a new off-road-focused AT4 model, and an entry-level Elevation trim that brings the base price to $64,495.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[2kwik4u]

I'm gonna go on a little rant here. Not related to EV's, but more pointed at the Rivian in particular. Not really sure where else to put it, and since you guys tend to be my online venting target, and subsequent therapy session, here it comes.

Sister is in town for the weekend. Brought the nieces/nephews up for my youngest's birthday party (turning 7!). We get the kids pizza and head out to get some authentic wings while she's in town. Drove the Rivian over to Bar Bills in East Aurora and had a great meal and conversation. It was raining last night so we make a dash for the truck, only to find I can't get in. App doesn't work, key card from my wallet doesn't work. Nothing. They sprint back inside, I continue to screw with it for another 5 minutes. Getting completely soaked. I eventually got the key card to work and we got home. Phone and truck refused to pair with each other throughout the trip, and the key card was on the struggle bus, because I assume, the downpour of rain was interfering with the RFID between the card and the door handle.

Now, once I was home I cooled off a little and started trying to figure out what happened. Key fob appears to work. Key card works (in the garage where it's dry), why won't the app work?!?! Force stopped the app, and re-opened it. Rivian pushed a fucking OTA update on it, WHILE WE WERE AT DINNER that now requires 2FA. Sure, it's more secure, fucking YAY on that front I guess. I was parked in a quite secure location in a low crime neighborhood, and had to fiddle fuck around with technology AGAIN to get into the truck.

Tell me again how great OTA updates are. I'm really, completely ready, for someone to tell me why it's this damn important to update something as simple as how I get into the vehicle. Been on this earth for 44 years and have been driving for a solid 28 of them. Beyond that I think this is like my 15th or 16th vehicle I've owned. I've yet to have a fucking KEY fail to grant me access to a vehicle.

Needless to say, I'm effing PISSED that not only can I not access my $85k luxury vehicle. But that it decided to keep me out, in the rain, in the dark, with out of town guests. This is, quite literally, unacceptable and has me considering selling the fucking thing and losing my ass because I've lost faith in the ability to, well, even get inside the damn thing. Talk about one of the EASIEST things to do on a vehicle, and the completely new and innovative ways they've managed to completely fuck it up.

</rant>

Apologies for the foul language, I've not been this agitated at a vehicle in a VERY long time. Also, a reiteration, this isn't an EV problem it's a Rivian problem, but I thought this was an appropriate place to put it.

 

[CarolinaJet]

That totally sucks. They deployed it in a way that did not consider the customer impact. I bet there were plenty of people who had this happen to them. Don’t blame you for wanting out of it, you’ve had enough bad experiences that it would be difficult to find enough positives to overcome them.

 

[Coult45]

I'm gonna go on a little rant here. Not related to EV's, but more pointed at the Rivian in particular. Not really sure where else to put it, and since you guys tend to be my online venting target, and subsequent therapy session, here it comes.

Sister is in town for the weekend. Brought the nieces/nephews up for my youngest's birthday party (turning 7!). We get the kids pizza and head out to get some authentic wings while she's in town. Drove the Rivian over to Bar Bills in East Aurora and had a great meal and conversation. It was raining last night so we make a dash for the truck, only to find I can't get in. App doesn't work, key card from my wallet doesn't work. Nothing. They sprint back inside, I continue to screw with it for another 5 minutes. Getting completely soaked. I eventually got the key card to work and we got home. Phone and truck refused to pair with each other throughout the trip, and the key card was on the struggle bus, because I assume, the downpour of rain was interfering with the RFID between the card and the door handle.

Now, once I was home I cooled off a little and started trying to figure out what happened. Key fob appears to work. Key card works (in the garage where it's dry), why won't the app work?!?! Force stopped the app, and re-opened it. Rivian pushed a fucking OTA update on it, WHILE WE WERE AT DINNER that now requires 2FA. Sure, it's more secure, fucking YAY on that front I guess. I was parked in a quite secure location in a low crime neighborhood, and had to fiddle fuck around with technology AGAIN to get into the truck.

Tell me again how great OTA updates are. I'm really, completely ready, for someone to tell me why it's this damn important to update something as simple as how I get into the vehicle. Been on this earth for 44 years and have been driving for a solid 28 of them. Beyond that I think this is like my 15th or 16th vehicle I've owned. I've yet to have a fucking KEY fail to grant me access to a vehicle.

Needless to say, I'm effing PISSED that not only can I not access my $85k luxury vehicle. But that it decided to keep me out, in the rain, in the dark, with out of town guests. This is, quite literally, unacceptable and has me considering selling the fucking thing and losing my ass because I've lost faith in the ability to, well, even get inside the damn thing. Talk about one of the EASIEST things to do on a vehicle, and the completely new and innovative ways they've managed to completely fuck it up.

</rant>

Apologies for the foul language, I've not been this agitated at a vehicle in a VERY long time. Also, a reiteration, this isn't an EV problem it's a Rivian problem, but I thought this was an appropriate place to put it.

two huge and reasonable frustrations there. First, as an EV owner, i totally agree with you that they change things that don't need changing. I've never had a key fob fail, but Phone as a Key with the MachE was really sketchy for the first year or so. Seems bullet proof now, but i still carry the fob because the fob ALWAYS works. I ran into that same issue when i was trying to move a friend's rented Tesla out of my driveway before a surprise party, and couldn't figure out how the f to open the car with the card. For like, ten minutes. And then i couldnt figure out how to turn the car off after i moved it. Unnecessary complications, with no real value. Second, OTAs have to be flawless. Ford gives us a lot of warning when they're coming, and they're scheduled for overnight, AND you can change the schedule to do it when it won't create problems. Implementing 2FA during dinner is so dumb, it can't be justified.

The MachE doesn't try to be too revolutionary, so i really haven't run into too much that bugs us. Overall, it's been a solid (near perfect) three years and 40k miles.

 

[2kwik4u]

That totally sucks. They deployed it in a way that did not consider the customer impact. I bet there were plenty of people who had this happen to them. Don’t blame you for wanting out of it, you’ve had enough bad experiences that it would be difficult to find enough positives to overcome them.

What kills me at this point is that the very first interaction with it EVERY SINGLE TIME I USE IT is bad. Like, I don't even get a chance to enjoy the good shit before getting a bad taste over it.

Sucks, because I really wanted to love it, and there's so many great things about it.

 

[BigN8]

You sure you don’t have a setting wrong for the OTA? Link an update preference? When my F-150 and my Volvo have an update they both will ask if you want to update now, or later. If you pick later it will install the update at like 2am when the car is parked and locked. Heck I think the Volvo even has to be plugged in.

 

[2kwik4u]

You sure you don’t have a setting wrong for the OTA? Link an update preference? When my F-150 and my Volvo have an update they both will ask if you want to update now, or later. If you pick later it will install the update at like 2am when the car is parked and locked. Heck I think the Volvo even has to be plugged in.

I don't think this was an OTA update. The truck software didn't change and the Android version didn't change. I think it was actually my 2FA token expiring over dinner, and I didn't receive any notification of it. Just suddenly wouldn't connect between phone and truck, which means PAAK didn't work.

I think.

Still seems absurd as a means to access a vehicle to me.

 

[Bluewater272]

Tell me again how great OTA updates are. I'm really, completely ready, for someone to tell me why it's this damn important to update something as simple as how I get into the vehicle.

Once again, the issue is with Rivian's implementation of OTAs. It should never happen without you being aware and having approved. I just get a little pop up, and schedule it to install while I sleep. OTAs take time, imagine if you had walked out of dinner mid-update and had it been dead for half an hour. Crazy stupid from Rivian.

 

[2kwik4u]

Once again, the issue is with Rivian's implementation of OTAs. It should never happen without you being aware and having approved. I just get a little pop up, and schedule it to install while I sleep. OTAs take time, imagine if you had walked out of dinner mid-update and had it been dead for half an hour. Crazy stupid from Rivian.

Well, on this note. I was mistaken. This isn't an OTA update. This is a poor execution of a system.

The 2FA token on my Rivian account expired while I was at dinner. SO, the app would not allow access into the truck, nor pairing with the truck. Only way I found out was to force close the app, and restart it. No alert, no notification, nothing, except denied access.

THEN, the "credit card" RFID access was clearly hampered by interference from the active rainshower I was in. A physical key, or hell even Audi's capacitive touch never failed me, not even once, in this scenario in the past.

SO.......while this particular episode of "WTF doesn't my truck work" wasn't sponsored by OTA's, it's certainly was sponsored by a tech company making a vehicle (and not the other way around). People give Ford, GM, and other "legacy" automakers a lot of shit for being "behind on software", but, you know what their cars do? They sure as hell don't lock their owners out in the rain for no apparent effing reason because of smartphone app credential expiration.

 

[2kwik4u]

You sure you don’t have a setting wrong for the OTA? Link an update preference? When my F-150 and my Volvo have an update they both will ask if you want to update now, or later. If you pick later it will install the update at like 2am when the car is parked and locked. Heck I think the Volvo even has to be plugged in.

I was wrong, it wasn't an OTA update. The 2FA on the app expired while I was at dinner, and it didn't notify me.

 

[BlkGS]

Agreed regarding the legacy automakers. They have processes in place to make sure consumers don't get impacted like this. When you're a start up that all you can about is generating buzz, investment, and "disruption", you don't care about that stuff. That stuff is "the problem" because those companies aren't agile and edgy and buzz worthy. Who cares if you can't get into your car in the rain? We innovated a touchscreen to point your air vents! These companies build cars for people who see themselves as enlightened early adopters, and are willing to live with this kind of hassle because "it's new and they're part of development".

That's not for me. Some other poor fool can be the beta tester, I don't really care for that experience.

Hopefully this kind of nonsense doesn't spread to the regular automakers too.