EV discussion - hate or love?

[2kwik4u]

Well, everything is in bold now. and I can't edit it for some reason. Oh well. We'll try again next time

 

[BlkGS]

I think it's gonna be a very interesting vehicle to see how they decided to do stuff. I think it's gonna flop personally, because I think they'll screw up the pricing, and greedy dealers will try to charge over MSRP and they're gonna land like a wet fart at a funeral.

Hurricane definitely requires premium, probably can be run on regular if needed, but I bet it's sucky when done.

 

[BlkGS]

As an update, as it turns out the standard output hurricane runs just fine on regular unleaded, but the HO requires premium.

Also, supposedly ram is cutting MSRPs by 30% in Q2.

 

[Bluewater272]

As an update, as it turns out the standard output hurricane runs just fine on regular unleaded, but the HO requires premium.

Also, supposedly ram is cutting MSRPs by 30% in Q2.

Did they actually announce that? Nice way to not sell any cars in Q1.

 

[BlkGS]

Did they actually announce that? Nice way to not sell any cars in Q1.

I didn't see anything official. It appears to be one of those unconfirmed internet rumors. Looks like people on reddit started it, and then were immediately hit with "no they won't, if anything they'll do incentives so they can carry over more negative equity".

So who knows. I doubt they'll actually cut MSRP by 30%, but that would be a good move, that would put a loaded limited in the high 50s, low 60s, which would be a good price range for it.

 

[2kwik4u]

Gotta say, after two scathing reviews from Kyle on OutOfSpec, I'm not sure I want to get anywhere near a Stelantis made EV anything.

Closest I've been to either of these is waiting for a new Daytona to be finished up at an EA station over Thanksgiving. Didn't realize exactly what it was (thought a dumbass Challenger owner parked in the EV charging spot to be honest) until the owner got out and unplugged.

Anyone here had any personal experience with either the new Jeep or the new Daytona?

In other thoughts around my continued EV experience/experiment.......Honestly there's not much to report here. I've pretty much given up caring at all about what the truck is doing. I was watching the app like a hawk and making sure it was charging and noting when it would be done and all that. Noticed this weekend, I didn't look at the Rivian app even once. I leave the charge limit set at 85% and plug it in when I get home. Then, when it's time to leave, I unplug and drive off. Giving it, almost, zero attention to range taken, range remaining, or any of that other madness. It just works. It's like my cellphone now. I charge it once a day and it does all the things I need it to all day long.

I've been pretty happy with the snow performance. I've been in as deep as 16in of fresh powder with it, and it gives ZERO F's about the snow. Just lumbers right along as if it doesn't matter. Drove home from the ski slopes yesterday in about 6in of fresh snow through some unplowed/untouched backroads with zero issue. Thing does weigh 7,600lbs and has 3PMS rated tires on it, so I'm sure those things help.

 

[BlkGS]

Wagoneer S looks like exactly what on paper could be a winner. I think they screwed up BIG TIME not launching it as an SRT version. It's priced in line with the old SRT, it's faster than the SRT, and I think it looks pretty good. Maybe a little hp bump over the launch version? I think they'd have done pretty well with it that way.

Launching it as is appears to have absolutely failed. Massive discounts on both models that are either barely available or not available yet is a very very bad sign.

I didn't have a chance to watch the reviews, what were his complaints? Were they legit or more like "it isn't a Tesla" type complaints?

 

[2kwik4u]

I didn't have a chance to watch the reviews, what were his complaints? Were they legit or more like "it isn't a Tesla" type complaints?

I haven't watched the Jeep one yet. Just saw the title. It's on my list for this weeks leisure minute.

The Daytona had some drivability and handling issues. Understeered really badly, and overheated the driveline when pushed even a little bit. I forget what the other issues were, but I feel like the regen was clunky as well. I know there were a lot of fit/finish/software bugs that came up as well. I remember there were several comments relating to it feeling largely half-baked and not up to market standards.

I hate the "Tesla is so far ahead" on tech arguments. While technically they are likely accurate, in terms of real world performance I find the gap VERY hard to discern. My recollection on the Daytona though, was that it was behind even the newest of other manufacturers EV's.

 

[BlkGS]

I haven't watched the Jeep one yet. Just saw the title. It's on my list for this weeks leisure minute.

The Daytona had some drivability and handling issues. Understeered really badly, and overheated the driveline when pushed even a little bit. I forget what the other issues were, but I feel like the regen was clunky as well. I know there were a lot of fit/finish/software bugs that came up as well. I remember there were several comments relating to it feeling largely half-baked and not up to market standards.

I hate the "Tesla is so far ahead" on tech arguments. While technically they are likely accurate, in terms of real world performance I find the gap VERY hard to discern. My recollection on the Daytona though, was that it was behind even the newest of other manufacturers EV's.

I dunno, i feel like EVs are kinda commodities. You buy batteries. You buy electric motors. Where is there to be "so far ahead" when you're just using stuff from other companies? I think the other thing is a lot of Tesla marketing is a bit... Amazon seller. It's somewhere between "lies" and "misrepresentation".

That said, by all regards it seems like the new Charger is a crap product that has and will fail miserably, possibly taking Dodge down in the process. It seems like they missed the mark totally for it as a muscle car, as an EV, as a performance car... Just a total disaster.

 

[2kwik4u]

I dunno, i feel like EVs are kinda commodities. You buy batteries. You buy electric motors. Where is there to be "so far ahead" when you're just using stuff from other companies?

Just like everything else in the automotive world. The secret sauce is in the tuning and total package integration.

You could say suspensions are all commodities, you buy control arms, you buy shocks where is there to be "so far ahead".....but then you drive a GM back to back with an BMW, and you can see where the secret sauce is. The components are, for all intents and purposes the same, but the arrangement, tuning, and integration are what communicate the design intent along into the drivers seat. The results are far different between the two. This is disregarding the relative quality of the commoditized components as well. Choosing which component to buy is often just as important as how it's arranged in the system.

Then, of course, you can build your own commoditized pieces/parts. Rivian started with Bosch motors, and has moved to their own, in house, "Enduro" motors. Clearly they wanted more control over the process. Now if that was cost, quality, performance, or drive by some mix of those, there was something there to be gained by taking that on internally.

Tesla, in particular, spends a lot on R&D for batteries alone. So while they might not make them, in a Tesla branded factory, as a key customer for that battery factory, they have a lot of influence on how their cells are made. So it's not just "the same cell as everyone else", it's the same form factor, but likely a very customized version of the "same cell" made just for them.

 

[2kwik4u]

Well, another set of thoughts on the EV experiment.

Had my first full month of nothing but home charging. Refilled 1,076.20 kWh of energy at a cost of $203.59. That got me 1,557.31 miles of driving for ~$0.13/mi average cost. No maintenance requirements this month either, so that's the operating cost as well. Audi had a lifetime fuel cost of $0.24/mi, so the Rivian costs almost half as much. This is even with the absurdly "poor" efficiency in the cold/winter month we just had. Average consumption was 1.41mi/kWh (706Wh/mi) for the month of January. This is the equivalent of 47.5mpg (ish), which is still pretty decent considering it's a 7,200lb pickup truck. Should get closer to 75mpg in the summertime. I'm not holding my breathe for that though. We'll see. Also, I haven't been to a public "refueling" station since Thanksgiving. I don't miss that even one little bit. Plug the truck in when I get home, and leave with a "full tank" every morning. While I never really "minded" having to stop and get gas, it's a nice little thing to not have to deal with.

I'm running through the miles quickly still. Something like 63mi/day average. Only bought 45mi/day through the lease, so I'm going to have to deal with that at the end. Not sure at this point if I'll buyout the lease, turn in the keys with a penalty, or find some other creative way to handle it. have 8,725mi on it now. Which is a lot considering I just got it at the end of September. I did make two trips to KY with it though, so I'm sure that didn't help the cause.

I've taken the boy to the ski slopes twice now. Both times it dumped 3-6in on us while we were there. I've also had the truck in as deep as 16in of fresh snow during a lake effect event. It's not quite as sure footed as my Q7 was, but it's pretty close. It gets the "better vehicle" nod based solely on ground clearance. This is my own fault, as I had the Audi lowered, but even on it's highest setting stock it wasn't quite as high as the Rivian is on it's medium setting.

The alignment thing is fixed. I should have messed with this before, but for some reason didn't even think about it. The front left tire was ~4psi lower than the right front. As soon as I "sync'd" the pressures across all 4 tires (part of my monthly checks) the alignment is spot on. Pulls the crown of the road slightly, but not enough to be a hassle or an issue. So, the trucks been "right" all along, and I should have checked more thoroughly. Only other vehicle I had that was this sensitive to air pressure was the RX8. It would pull to the right/left if the air pressure was off by more than 2-3psi. Not sure that's really a good thing with a truck that has A/T tires, but at least I know to keep an eye on it now.

As of now, I don't have any significant issues with the truck. Everything has been working as intended, and no real errors/maintenance/etc to have to deal with. There is an outstanding recall on the 12V battery. I'm working to get mobile service scheduled for that now. We'll see how the mobile service works out. Even if it's something that shouldn't be a problem, the premise of an automaker coming to you to do the fix seems more than reasonable. Going to schedule them to come to the office one day. Hoping it's of little or no effort on my part.

I have been slightly annoyed lately with the HVAC system. The vents in the dash under the center screen seem to have a mind of their own. They don't stay where I left them. Sometimes they "obey" commands, other times they don't. I HATE to have hot air blowing on my face, so I have to bork with them a few times a week to get the closed again. There is no "selector" to choose where the air comes out, it's all built into the screen. Again, a really stupid redesign of a really basic system for no real noticeable gain other than to say "neat" about it.......if even that.

More details as they arise and I think of them.

 

[CarolinaJet]

Thanks for the continued detailed observations.

Re the high energy use in cold weather, teslas have an option to precondition the battery. I have recently learned this makes my watt hrs/mi go from 400ish down to low 300s in cold weather, so close to 25% savings.

 

[2kwik4u]

Thanks for the continued detailed observations.

Re the high energy use in cold weather, teslas have an option to precondition the battery. I have recently learned this makes my watt hrs/mi go from 400ish down to low 300s in cold weather, so close to 25% savings.

I've noticed that the efficiency is much more closely tied to motor temps than it is battery temp. I've seen battery temps down in the teens, but once the motors get above about 85-90 deg, the efficiency comes right back up.

The truck is EPA rated at 2.24mi/kWh (446Wh/mi), but I've not seen that as an average anywhere yet. My road trips I was getting 2.4mi/kWh (416Wh/mi), when it was just cool outside. After visiting a DCFC with the battery temps in the 90's, and the motors over 100, I was getting much better numbers. I really think the battery temp has less to do with it than the motor temps. And that tracks mechanically as well, cold grease and oil is harder to push/move around. Once all of that is good and warm the rolling resistance will drop significantly, and the actual kW loading on the battery isn't exceptionally high while just cruising on the interstate. The 40hp-ish required to maintain speed is only 30kW, which is an order of magnitude below the 400kW (533hp) the truck is capable of drawing. So, it continues to track that the rolling resistance is the limiting factor there.

Really though, elevation and wind are far larger contributors to low numbers than weather I think. Heading "up the hill" to go skiing yesterday I got 1.33mi/kWh (752Wh/mi) with the cruise set at 65mph. It was a decent elevation gain (over 1k feet in ~15mi), and we were heading into the wind the whole way. Just a brutal hit on efficiency. Would have hit the Audi the same way though, so no complaints, just an interesting observation.

I'm really curious to see how it does towing this summer. Warm temps will help both the battery and the motors, however the aero load of a boat with a tower will not be doing my any favors. Having home charging though, I see no issues with leaving at 100% SoC when towing. I'm also REALLY curious how launching/retrieving works out. There's no parking brake switch, so I'm just going to have to trust the truck knows what it's doing there and won't roll/slip away. Might take chocks with me the first few times until I'm comfortable with how it all works.

 

[2kwik4u]

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-kia-ev9-land-yearlong-review-update-5-family-road-trip/

Article about road tripping with kids and an EV. My kids are a little older, but I made essentially this same trip in October with the boys, dog, wife, and my Rivian. This feels like a pretty honest take on the process, aside from skipping a charge because a kid was sleeping. That seemed like a poor choice.

 

[CarolinaJet]

I've noticed that the efficiency is much more closely tied to motor temps than it is battery temp. I've seen battery temps down in the teens, but once the motors get above about 85-90 deg, the efficiency comes right back up.

The truck is EPA rated at 2.24mi/kWh (446Wh/mi), but I've not seen that as an average anywhere yet. My road trips I was getting 2.4mi/kWh (416Wh/mi), when it was just cool outside. After visiting a DCFC with the battery temps in the 90's, and the motors over 100, I was getting much better numbers. I really think the battery temp has less to do with it than the motor temps. And that tracks mechanically as well, cold grease and oil is harder to push/move around. Once all of that is good and warm the rolling resistance will drop significantly, and the actual kW loading on the battery isn't exceptionally high while just cruising on the interstate. The 40hp-ish required to maintain speed is only 30kW, which is an order of magnitude below the 400kW (533hp) the truck is capable of drawing. So, it continues to track that the rolling resistance is the limiting factor there.

Really though, elevation and wind are far larger contributors to low numbers than weather I think. Heading "up the hill" to go skiing yesterday I got 1.33mi/kWh (752Wh/mi) with the cruise set at 65mph. It was a decent elevation gain (over 1k feet in ~15mi), and we were heading into the wind the whole way. Just a brutal hit on efficiency. Would have hit the Audi the same way though, so no complaints, just an interesting observation.

I'm really curious to see how it does towing this summer. Warm temps will help both the battery and the motors, however the aero load of a boat with a tower will not be doing my any favors. Having home charging though, I see no issues with leaving at 100% SoC when towing. I'm also REALLY curious how launching/retrieving works out. There's no parking brake switch, so I'm just going to have to trust the truck knows what it's doing there and won't roll/slip away. Might take chocks with me the first few times until I'm comfortable with how it all works.

That’s very interesting about the motor temp and efficiency. The teslas use liquid cooling for the motors same as the battery. So whatever it does should affect both. I don’t know if there is a way to see the actual temps.

I looked into the, ‘pre-conditioning’ based on this. The consensus is this is just the climate control. The battery conditioning is done only when you route to a supercharger.

However, I do set my car to finish charging at the same time I tell it to precondition. So it would still be warm from charging then.

 

[Bluewater272]

That’s very interesting about the motor temp and efficiency. The teslas use liquid cooling for the motors same as the battery. So whatever it does should affect both. I don’t know if there is a way to see the actual temps.

I looked into the, ‘pre-conditioning’ based on this. The consensus is this is just the climate control. The battery conditioning is done only when you route to a supercharger.

However, I do set my car to finish charging at the same time I tell it to precondition. So it would still be warm from charging then.

Whenever I precondition my Tesla below a certain temp, in addition to turning on climate control it also says its preheating the battery for performance. I think the threshold is around 30.

 

[2kwik4u]

Whenever I precondition my Tesla below a certain temp, in addition to turning on climate control it also says its preheating the battery for performance. I think the threshold is around 30.

Unfortunately, Rivian only does preconditioning of the battery before a routed DCFC stop. Nothing about preconditioning at home.

With that said, the battery is usually around 50degF after charging all night in the garage. Ambient temps in the teens and 20's in an uninsulated garage.

 

[BlkGS]

Ambient temps in the teens and 20's in an uninsulated garage.

Wut. It's still below freezing in your garage? That's mind boggling to me.

 

[2kwik4u]

Wut. It's still below freezing in your garage? That's mind boggling to me.

It's just above freezing usually. Mid-high 30's usually. Really cold nights (0-10 outside) will see it dip into the teens and twenties. So, yea, it's cold out there. Have the back wall, ceiling, and half a side wall insulated as part of the habitable envelope. Garage door, floor, left wall, and half of right wall aren't insulated. Keeps the wind and water out, but does very little for heat.

Lots of people insulate the garage door and put small space heaters in to keep it in the 40's in the garage. We almost bought a house a month ago, big selling points where a heated floor and full insulation in the garage. Guy said it kept it in the 60's on even the closest days. Also had a drain, hot and cold water hose bins, and a small 4post lift with a try ceiling. We lost a bidding war, but were close.

 

[2kwik4u]

Rivian reported Q4 gross profit of $170mil. First quarter in business with a gross profit.

https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/0001874178/000187417825000004/rivn-20250220.htm

Unsure how this compares to Tesla in terms of "time to profit", however it's a good sign of the final movements away from being a startup.