EV discussion - hate or love?

[CarolinaJet]

My F150 w the 3.5 ecoboost and the big (36 gal?) tank occasionally worked out its estimated range to a bit over 600 miles after a lot of highway driving. That is crazy far. Even on a road trip I’d stop at least twice before covering that many miles. I get that the big tank is for towing range, but more than 90% of the time I’m not towing so I rarely filled it all the way.

Replaced the truck with a used Tesla model x which turned out to be a far more stable and agile towing vehicle than the F150. Weight is down low so it’s stable, suspension isn’t disturbed by anything, the shorter wheelbase makes for easier maneuvering into my storage space, and it has so much torque that I set it to chill mode when towing so there’s less chance of yanking the trailer too hard (I did it once by accident and am glad I didn’t bend anything!) It truly drives like nothing is back there. And to top it off, the immediate regenerative braking when you lift off the throttle is very confidence-inspiring when towing, and keeps you completely out of the regular brakes for all routine driving. The truck was rated for around 11k lbs but I ALWAYS knew the trailer was back there making it work, pushing it around, and feeling like an elephant when needing to bleed off some speed.

I’ll admit there are two significant downsides to the X. First is mirrors. They are really small and at first seemed like I was blind. I’ve found I can mostly offset this by using the rear camera with the side cameras turned on. And I got add-on mirrors that help in some situations. But nothing like nice tow mirrors.

And the big one is indeed range. My model x is a long range plus which claims 350+ miles of range with its 100kwh battery. But that is based on about 270 watt-hours per mile, a threshold that is achievable only when not running the ac or heat and staying off the freeway. Add in any of those things and it will be 300-400.

But towing my boat is more like 750-800 wh/mi at 60-65mph. So the usable towing range is right around 100 miles. Far too short if you do a lot of towing. For the 1-2 trips per year I take the boat more than 80 miles round trip, I have to supercharge and plan carefully. So it’s a trade off that doesn’t impact me too much, but would be a deal breaker if I were going farther than 1-2 hours away, or if I were doing medium distance regularly.

 

[buckbuck]

@CarolinaJet Thanks for the info. I am kicking around the idea of a Model X and have been put off by the mirrors. Can you describe more fully what you are doing to mitigate the vision issue?

 

[CarolinaJet]

@CarolinaJet Thanks for the info. I am kicking around the idea of a Model X and have been put off by the mirrors. Can you describe more fully what you are doing to mitigate the vision issue?

Sure, with pictures. But no judging the filthy car or cluttered garage! First, I bought some clamp on mirrors that I found in a model x towing forum. These were recommended because they're the most aerodynamic. In hindsight, the aerodynamics of them is peanuts compared to the boat so I would choose a larger version from the same brand, and I may upgrade them. It's not adjusted, but hope you get the idea:



Next, in my pre-2022 refresh mode x, you can choose to drive with these rear-facing side cameras (see picture of the front quarter panel) turned on (see display). In the 2022+ they automatically turn on when you activate the blinker but I don't know if you can drive with them on all the time. They are perfect for this, but unfortunately the view is still small and the displayed location is counter-intuitive at first, but once you get used to it you can keep an eye on what is next to your trailer and help with changing lanes more safely. Sorry I don't have a view of what it looks like with the boat behind you, but hopefully you can imagine it. I would love it if Tesla could create a 'tow view' with a larger image from these two cameras.



And here's the energy use and us pulled into a supercharger w boat in tow:


The only other thing I'll add is that there is some strangeness with how the mirrors and rear camera are set up on this car that makes you misjudge the angles. Here's someone else describing it: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/293131/
It is a bit maddening to try and line up the hitch with the trailer due to the off-center rear camera, and at the boat ramp you just have to forget about the mirrors and stick your head out the side window, using the mirrors results in weaving back and forth down the ramp like.... an idiot who tows his boat with a Tesla

 

[buckbuck]

Hmmm... that's a goofy mirror. I was hoping for something like you would find on a Ram 2500. But the cameras look helpful while towing. Just not sure this would be a good fit for us. Thanks for responding.

 

[Julian]

Hmmm... that's a goofy mirror. I was hoping for something like you would find on a Ram 2500. But the cameras look helpful while towing. Just not sure this would be a good fit for us. Thanks for responding.

If you don't like goofy then I guess the Cyber Truck is out of the running??? LOL

 

[zipper]

Pretty amazing battery tech.

 

[2kwik4u]

Have an interesting test for the Rivian this week. Nothing that I would have even considered with an ICE powered vehicle, and honestly not certain I would have planned even a little bit ahead for.

Left the house this morning at 100% state of charge. Have to drive 30mi south to the office, pickup 2 guys, then 45mi north to the airport. Going to fly out this afternoon and not return until late Friday night, where I'll have to repeat the 75mi trip to get the guys back to their trucks, and me back to my house. Highs are going to be in the mid 20's this week. Clearly this is "no big deal" for an ICE vehicle, however with the harder hit on range from the cold weather, I'm certain the Rivian will take a bit more hit. Also, I'm running ~65% capacity in the cold based on data the last few weeks, so my normal 305mi is cut down to 198mi or so. Going to use up 150-ish of that in driving, so I SHOULD be just fine, so long as I minimize side quests to/from the airport, with a 30% reserve. Better than we do our boats some days, right?

The last time the truck sat at the airport in low double digit temps, it lost about 2% of battery per day. Assuming that my 30% reserve is accurate, and I lose 10% over 5days, I should still be OK.

I'm treating it like a regular pickup at this point. We'll see how I fair. There's a supercharger between the airport and the office if we get in and it's borked, but would rather just get home and let it charge overnight.

 

[2kwik4u]

@CarolinaJet Some interesting data on towing there. Thanks for sharing. I was equally impressed when I moved from a full-size pickup to a smaller SUV. Similar feelings of better driving dynamics, lower CG, and better brakes.

I'm equal parts nervous and excited for this summers towing adventures in the Rivian. Looks like you're around 1.3mi/kWh, which is almost exactly what I got with my Rivian and AR190 on a short tow this fall. I suspect the Model X is more aerodynamically efficient, while your AR210 is a bit heavier than my 190; leading to similar results.

That is the first time I've seen a "pull in" spot like that actually being used for a Tesla. I've seen lots of other EV's parked there (myself included) because of alternatively located charging ports. Be nice if all the stations had that.

Did you get any grief from others for having the boat sticking out in the lane there? I see the Youtubers do it all the time, and I think about 1/3 of the chargers I've visited I could have made that work based on charger location and parking lot configuration. There is a supercharger on the north side of Columbus, OH that has a ton of PULL THROUGH stalls that would be super easy. Then there is on in Florence, KY that is on a "main" lane of the parking lot and would be a major traffic issue to use.

 

[CarolinaJet]

@CarolinaJet Some interesting data on towing there. Thanks for sharing. I was equally impressed when I moved from a full-size pickup to a smaller SUV. Similar feelings of better driving dynamics, lower CG, and better brakes.

I'm equal parts nervous and excited for this summers towing adventures in the Rivian. Looks like you're around 1.3mi/kWh, which is almost exactly what I got with my Rivian and AR190 on a short tow this fall. I suspect the Model X is more aerodynamically efficient, while your AR210 is a bit heavier than my 190; leading to similar results.

That is the first time I've seen a "pull in" spot like that actually being used for a Tesla. I've seen lots of other EV's parked there (myself included) because of alternatively located charging ports. Be nice if all the stations had that.

Did you get any grief from others for having the boat sticking out in the lane there? I see the Youtubers do it all the time, and I think about 1/3 of the chargers I've visited I could have made that work based on charger location and parking lot configuration. There is a supercharger on the north side of Columbus, OH that has a ton of PULL THROUGH stalls that would be super easy. Then there is on in Florence, KY that is on a "main" lane of the parking lot and would be a major traffic issue to use.

I think you're right about the similar efficiency results. The dual axle trailer adds rolling resistance too. I did use the mooring cover since I had read it was a bit more aerodynamic. I bet you won't see quite the same towing overhead as I do given your truck is already pushing more air out of the way in normal driving. But like you said, you end up in the same place.

I didn't get any grief at the supercharger about the boat, thankfully. As part of planning out where I would charge, I scouted the superchargers along the way using google maps satellite view and user-submitted pictures to see how they were laid out, whether they had a pull in spot, and best approach. This one was my plan A and it worked out to be not busy and nobody in the pull-in spot when I arrived, I approached from the left and turned in carefully to have the boat as angled as possible towards the side where I was only blocking a dumpster. It ended up taking up about half the lane so there was plenty of room for cars to get by. As a backup I could have unhooked the trailer before charging, plus there was another supercharger about 15 miles down the road that wasn't quite as accessible but would still work.

Some other stuff I learned:

This particular day was about 90 degrees, humid and sunny. We were meeting people around noon so left the house at 9:15 for a 1.5 hr, 90 mile drive in normal conditions, knowing we would be charging and using a new ramp, etc. When we went to charge at roughly the 60 mile mark, it wouldn't charge faster than 75kW with nobody in the adjacent spot. I have to assume that was due to the huge power demand getting everything toasty. So to get the ~55kWh I needed to continue my trip took close to an hour, and same thing happened on the way home. So charging added 2 hours to a 3 hour round trip. I would need to find a better tow solution if I did this more than 1-2 times per year. But now that I know, what I would do differently next time is leave very early in the morning to take advantage of less traffic so I could comfortably drive slower and avoid the hottest parts of the day to try and keep from cooking it. I'd also eliminate some of the energy reserve I gave myself. But overall it was a successful and safe trip.

The Tesla will allow you to use the adaptive cruise while towing, but not any auto steering or self driving. I'm sure those features are not programmed to make adjustments for the trailer. I set it to max following distance and let it handle the speed for a lot of the trip and it does a good job on the flat. However, like a gas car it's a bit slow to react to a hill, plus it's got a lead foot. So we are rolling along at 65 in a 70, start up a hill and it loses down to 63, then mashes the throttle to get back to 65 while still going up the hill, and those blasts of energy were costly. It worked much better if I manually let it gradually lose speed on the uphill, then gradually gain it back on the downhill. It would do the same thing if we were momentarily slowed by traffic; just accelerates too hard by default.

I also briefly tried to draft a semi. The effect was an immediate, substantial drop off in energy use to maintain speed, the sensation was like being pulled forward. However, we had to get far closer than I was comfortable with so it was only a quick experiment.

 

[BlkGS]

Re the 1000km range... Assuming it's legit, my guess is it's towing related. 300 something miles pulling a trailer between stops isn't that unreasonable, that's a 4ish hour stint. If you took an F150 getting say, 12mpg towing, 36 gallon tank, you're still at 350+ miles of range, plus a refuel is pretty quick, a couple minutes at the pump. A battery sized tondo that would probably be 200-300kwh, and take a LONG time to charge up. That's my guess on it anyways, I dunno. Maybe it's just the convenience of being able to drive all day without having to stop to charge? I feel like having to stop to charge on a road trip is a line of cars to charge away from being a real pain in the ass stop.

That's the beauty of an EREV, all that kinda stuff goes away. It's an EV around town, and a gas vehicle on road trips. You don't have to come up with a strategy for charging, you just fill it up with gas and don't worry about it.

 

[2kwik4u]

Have an interesting test for the Rivian this week. Nothing that I would have even considered with an ICE powered vehicle, and honestly not certain I would have planned even a little bit ahead for.

Left the house this morning at 100% state of charge. Have to drive 30mi south to the office, pickup 2 guys, then 45mi north to the airport. Going to fly out this afternoon and not return until late Friday night, where I'll have to repeat the 75mi trip to get the guys back to their trucks, and me back to my house. Highs are going to be in the mid 20's this week. Clearly this is "no big deal" for an ICE vehicle, however with the harder hit on range from the cold weather, I'm certain the Rivian will take a bit more hit. Also, I'm running ~65% capacity in the cold based on data the last few weeks, so my normal 305mi is cut down to 198mi or so. Going to use up 150-ish of that in driving, so I SHOULD be just fine, so long as I minimize side quests to/from the airport, with a 30% reserve. Better than we do our boats some days, right?

The last time the truck sat at the airport in low double digit temps, it lost about 2% of battery per day. Assuming that my 30% reserve is accurate, and I lose 10% over 5days, I should still be OK.

I'm treating it like a regular pickup at this point. We'll see how I fair. There's a supercharger between the airport and the office if we get in and it's borked, but would rather just get home and let it charge overnight.

Replying to myself for context.

Got home from CA late last night. Made the drive no problem, had about 24% remaining when I landed at the house. Truck lost about 7% while sitting in the parking lot over the week. Parked around noon on Monday, picked up around 7pm last night (Friday). Not terrible considering I checked the cameras a few times during the week, and ambient temps were down in the single digits a few nights. Battery was 21degF when I got to the truck. I did preheat (think remote start) the truck as soon as the plane landed. We had to get bags, and then walk to the parking lot, and I lost 3% just in that 35min. Overall, not bad considering the temp. Drove ~160mi and used 76% of the battery, giving me a cold range of ~210mi.

Obviously, comparing this to an ICE will lead to some absurd conclusion. If I had bought a Titan or Sierra instead of a Rivian, then I would have lost ZERO range while sitting at the airport, and would likely take a hit on range, but not enough to even have it blip the logistics radar. Not sure how a 3.0L Diesel would have handled the near zero temps (I've never had a diesel), but that might have been a concern. With that said, the EV powertrain did just fine, so I think it's important to realize that while the EV didn't have the same capability as an ICE, it's still more capability than I needed. Even with the ~80mi of driving to/from the airport.

Doubt the outcome would have been the same without the ability to charge at home, though. Bumping the charge to 100% the night before was key. Would have started at some lower SoC otherwise. I also realize that is a logistical hiccup that wouldn't have been needed with an ICE, or if it was, it would have been a cursory look at a fuel gage and making a stop along the way that wouldn't have impacted plans at much of any level.

NOW.......Another thought on the EV front.......I had a Ford Explorer as a rental while I was in CA. That drivetrain SUCKS compared to the EV. As best I can tell it was a turbocharged 4cyl, with a poorly tuned DCT. The engine was ROUGH in terms of NVH, and the wildly non-linear torque curve and the "grabby then slippy" DCT felt super sketchy. Passing was a study in powertrain and traffic timing to get it right. It had acceptable torque.....when it was in boost, and in the right gear, and felt like not slipping. I get it's a rental, but cheese and rice it was awful. You'll be hard pressed to convince me that an EV driveline wouldn't have been a better choice for this trip (Ironically there were non available through Hertz, who I rented from). The linear torque, and lack of transmission is just such a BETTER driving experience, it's hard to not notice.

 

[Sherwood]

I have had my F150 lightning ER for just over a year. Absolutely love it! View attachment 228482

Pretty cool.
I thought about getting a lightning.
What boat and battery pack do you have?
The ramp I use the most is 34 miles round trip with about 7 red lights.
The other ramp I use is the one that worries me. 54 miles round trip and about a 100 red lights. I believe I used about a 1/2 tank last time I went in my Ram 1500. I was 7mpg at point, traffic was horrible .

 

[2kwik4u]

Pretty cool.
I thought about getting a lightning.
What boat and battery pack do you have?
The ramp I use the most is 34 miles round trip with about 7 red lights.
The other ramp I use is the one that worries me. 54 miles round trip and about a 100 red lights. I believe I used about a 1/2 tank last time I went in my Ram 1500. I was 7mpg at point, traffic was horrible .

Honestly, an EV would likely excel in that stop and go towing situation. Acceleration is some of the worst mileage in an ICE powered vehicle. An EV doesn't take as big of a hit (better efficiency in motor mostly), and gets some of that energy back using regenerative braking.

I would have zero issues towing, at the limit, with my Rivian that far. Even some of the travel trailer guys get near 100mi of range at highway speeds. 54mi shouldn't be any big deal at all. Assuming it isn't through a valley where it's literally "uphill both ways".

 

[BlkGS]

NOW.......Another thought on the EV front.......I had a Ford Explorer as a rental while I was in CA. That drivetrain SUCKS compared to the EV. As best I can tell it was a turbocharged 4cyl, with a poorly tuned DCT. The engine was ROUGH in terms of NVH, and the wildly non-linear torque curve and the "grabby then slippy" DCT felt super sketchy. Passing was a study in powertrain and traffic timing to get it right. It had acceptable torque.....when it was in boost, and in the right gear, and felt like not slipping. I get it's a rental, but cheese and rice it was awful. You'll be hard pressed to convince me that an EV driveline wouldn't have been a better choice for this trip (Ironically there were non available through Hertz, who I rented from). The linear torque, and lack of transmission is just such a BETTER driving experience, it's hard to not notice.

The explorer has the 10 speed auto and either a 2.3t or. 3.0t V6. Clearly you had the 2.3t, because the V6 would have been similar in performance to the EV. They're little rockets

That said, the explorer got a cheaper version of the 10 speed, and it isn't really all that robust of a transmission to begin with. Certainly not when abused in rental service, lol. We test drove one before buying the Expedition, and while the 2.3t wasn't fast, it was adequate when new. You definitely do have to be in boost, but that's the nature of these modern downsized powertrains.

I think where the rental companies screwed up was not making charging included on EVs. The idea of having to find somewhere to charge an EV when on a trip is disgusting to me. But if I could rent one and not have to worry about charging it, ok, that's convenient, I'd consider that.

 

[Bluewater272]

10 speed in my wife's ST is probably one of the best transmissions we've ever had. Drives much nicer than my F150.

That said, all transmissions kinda suck compared to a good EV, everything feels like its 30 years old.

 

[BlkGS]

10 speed in my wife's ST is probably one of the best transmissions we've ever had. Drives much nicer than my F150.

That said, all transmissions kinda suck compared to a good EV, everything feels like its 30 years old.

The 10 speed is a little clunky in our Expedition. The ZF8 in my BMW is way way better tuned. It is better than the direct transfer in an EV IMO.

 

[2kwik4u]

The 10 speed is a little clunky in our Expedition. The ZF8 in my BMW is way way better tuned. It is better than the direct transfer in an EV IMO.

The ZF in the Audi was great, but the lack of waiting for torque transfer in an EV is without comparison. Don't care how well tuned the ZF is.

 

[BlkGS]

The ZF in the Audi was great, but the lack of waiting for torque transfer in an EV is without comparison. Don't care how well tuned the ZF is.

The BMW tuning predicts the future so it applies torque before you want it, lol.

I get it, I still like the feeling of a motor winding out through gear changes vs the way electric motors do direct drive. Personal preference,

 

[2kwik4u]

The BMW tuning predicts the future so it applies torque before you want it, lol.

I get it, I still like the feeling of a motor winding out through gear changes vs the way electric motors do direct drive. Personal preference,

ROFL, predictive torque sounds like a great marketing term

I'll give ya preference, though. You like what ya like. I love a good engineering marvel, or a seemingly "cheat of the system" mechanically, as an enthusiast. Things like the smooth linear power of a normally aspirated rotary. The "always locked" action of a viscous center-diff based AWD system, as an enthusiast, are awesome. However, the simplicity of the system in the EV that leads to the "direct coupled" feeling between right pedal and thrust output is an equally great experience.

 

[Coult45]

I think the Corvette E-Ray has nailed the hybrid technology. 160HP to the front wheels to give a nice little launch assist and a 0-60 of 2.5 seconds. And if your commute is less than five miles, you can make it there on battery alone if you keep the speed at around 45mph or below. The ideal daily driver.