EV discussion - hate or love?

[BlkGS]

I think the Corvette E-Ray has nailed the hybrid technology. 160HP to the front wheels to give a nice little launch assist and a 0-60 of 2.5 seconds. And if your commute is less than five miles, you can make it there on battery alone if you keep the speed at around 45mph or below. The ideal daily driver.

I wouldn't mind 25 miles of range.

That said, I don't love it when electric is on one axle. The dynamic transition is weird. The Volvo's are set up this way, but with electric on the rear axle. It's odd, and I don't want my AWD sports car to be fwd most of the time around town.

 

[Coult45]

I wouldn't mind 25 miles of range.

That said, I don't love it when electric is on one axle. The dynamic transition is weird. The Volvo's are set up this way, but with electric on the rear axle. It's odd, and I don't want my AWD sports car to be fwd most of the time around town.

I don't think that's the default mode, the sales guy made it sound like that was an option you could tap if you wanted to sneak out of the neighborhood early without making a lot of noise. Mainly, the electric front axel is a launch and/or acceleration enhancer and the car is almost always just rear wheel drive.

 

[BlkGS]

So in EV news, sounds like the EV Ram is cancelled. The short range version had been delayed indefinitely before, but not the long range version is as well. Ramcharger is still coming, but it seems like the pure battery versions are dead before even being launched.

 

[2kwik4u]

So in EV news, sounds like the EV Ram is cancelled. The short range version had been delayed indefinitely before, but not the long range version is as well. Ramcharger is still coming, but it seems like the pure battery versions are dead before even being launched.

That sucks. Not sure they were for me, but more competition in the marketplace is typically a good thing for consumers.

 

[BlkGS]

That sucks. Not sure they were for me, but more competition in the marketplace is typically a good thing for consumers.

They're still gonna do Ramcharger, which I think is gonna be a paradigm breaker. Full EV trucks are going to look kinda silly when you could have an electric truck that you fill up at the gas station if needed. I think that's the important product.

Silverado EV hasn't exactly set the sales records on fire..Lightning only sells when it's cheaper than a gas truck. CT is through its initial pent up demand and isn't doing many sales anymore, and then Rivian is still a niche player. Personally, I just don't think there's a big market for an electric truck. Certainly not one big enough to support as many competitors in the segment as there are,.

Competition is good, but when they're all doing basically the same thing, and they're all expensive, it's sort of a moot point I think. Doing something totally different like Ramcharger, that's a good thing for competition.

 

[2kwik4u]

They're still gonna do Ramcharger, which I think is gonna be a paradigm breaker. Full EV trucks are going to look kinda silly when you could have an electric truck that you fill up at the gas station if needed. I think that's the important product.

Silverado EV hasn't exactly set the sales records on fire..Lightning only sells when it's cheaper than a gas truck. CT is through its initial pent up demand and isn't doing many sales anymore, and then Rivian is still a niche player. Personally, I just don't think there's a big market for an electric truck. Certainly not one big enough to support as many competitors in the segment as there are,.

Competition is good, but when they're all doing basically the same thing, and they're all expensive, it's sort of a moot point I think. Doing something totally different like Ramcharger, that's a good thing for competition.

I disagree, respectively.

I haven't been to an outdoor energy station since Thanksgiving. Don't miss it a bit, hope I never have to deal with one again. I don't think EV trucks will look silly at all. Honestly, if I never have another gas powered anything again, I think I'll be just fine. Maybe I'll change my tune when I start towing again, but these first 4mo have been pretty eye opening on the suitability of an EV.

Agreed on sales figures, however I think there's enough to support what's here, maybe a few more. Remember that whole "I buy what my dad and grandad bought" conversation? it'll still apply here, regardless of driveline. Ram will miss some sales without an EV offering, but they won't be bankrupted by it either.

The Ramcharger isn't something "totally different", it's a stop gap for those that don't want to convert.

 

[Bluewater272]

Ramcharger is going to be an excellent vehicle, so long as Ram figured out how to make a truck worth driving. However, it's pretty naive to suggest that you'll look silly with a BEV truck. Once again, most people don't need the ability to refuel during the day - and BEV vehicles are perfect for them, and for the once a year road trip people, a couple charge stops is an absolute non-issue.

People who haul trailers frequently? Yeah, Ramcharger, on paper, is awesome. If I still towed my boat every time I used it, I simply could not use any BEV truck on the market without budgeting a charge stop into my already short day. Folks need to recognize that this is a very tiny piece of the real world market, but a decent share of the boating community.

 

[Ribs77]

I wouldn't mind 25 miles of range.

That said, I don't love it when electric is on one axle. The dynamic transition is weird. The Volvo's are set up this way, but with electric on the rear axle. It's odd, and I don't want my AWD sports car to be fwd most of the time around town.

My hybrid Highlander is this way (I believe the rear wheels are electric only, and the front are powered by a 3.5L V6.) It's incredibly smooth and I've never noticed any kind of transition.

That said, it's definitely not a sports car, haha.

 

[BlkGS]

Ramcharger is going to be an excellent vehicle, so long as Ram figured out how to make a truck worth driving. However, it's pretty naive to suggest that you'll look silly with a BEV truck. Once again, most people don't need the ability to refuel during the day - and BEV vehicles are perfect for them, and for the once a year road trip people, a couple charge stops is an absolute non-issue.

People who haul trailers frequently? Yeah, Ramcharger, on paper, is awesome. If I still towed my boat every time I used it, I simply could not use any BEV truck on the market without budgeting a charge stop into my already short day. Folks need to recognize that this is a very tiny piece of the real world market, but a decent share of the boating community.

I think the reality of it is that we are all thinking it through. We are thinking about "ok how many times do I really need that extra range", or "ok where can I stop to be able to charge conveniently".

That's not what the average consumer will do. They're going to see it as "all the perks of an EV plus I never run out of energy". It won't matter than 99% of the time they won't use gas even with only 1xx miles of range. Trucks aren't bought on "this is all I need", they're bought on "what if I did this or that" type stuff. "What if I bought an RV and towed it across country for vacation?" Is what is going to have people buying these IMO.

 

[Bluewater272]

Hard disagree. People buy trucks based on how much truck they need, knowing what capabilities are required whether it be tow capacity, off road prowess, fuel economy, etc. Nobody I know at least just 'buys a truck and then figures out what to do with it'.

 

[2kwik4u]

Nobody I know at least just 'buys a truck and then figures out what to do with it'.

Same. Everyone I know that owns a truck knew what they had to do with it before they bought it......OR.....Just wanted a truck and they picked the prettiest/loudest/brightest/newest/etc version because they WANTED a truck, but what they really NEEDED was some flavor of basic transportation.

The ones that NEED to tow a long distance on a regular basis will just buy an ICE variant. It's the solution to that problem. The REV solves a problem that doesn't really exist. It's this half step solution that just adds cost/complexity to the vehicle without any real benefit. If you can only fill up once a month with it, then a BEV would have suited your needs. If you fill up once a week with it, then the all electric driveline is wasted.

 

[BlkGS]

Hard disagree. People buy trucks based on how much truck they need, knowing what capabilities are required whether it be tow capacity, off road prowess, fuel economy, etc. Nobody I know at least just 'buys a truck and then figures out what to do with it'.

I'm gonna disagree. Everyone buying a truck I know buys a truck 2 steps more than they really need because that's what they want, and they give themselves excuses as to why they need that extra capability. So like the guys who buy a f150 4x4 really would get all the capabilities they need out of a 4x4 Tacoma or a Maverick.

Again, this is broad strokes here, like the "truck buyers never have anything in their beds" kinda stuff. And to be fair, that's what I did when I bought my F150, and I'd do it again because the fullsize trucks are way better than the midsize ones. My point is just that people in the suburbs but full size trucks to use for home Depot runs that a small truck could handle because they think they might tow something big one day. That same kind of thought process is gonna convince them that "if I buy a Ramcharger I'm gonna save a ton on gas and never have to worry about range".

 

[buckbuck]

I am going to declare myself as a Ramcharger doubter. I admit I am not the sharpest crayon in the box but the engineering does not make sense to me. A 130kw generator supplying power to 2 250kw motor controllers MIGHT work for flat land, un-laden driving but I can't see it performing well while towing. The pentastar v-6 produces about 300 hp at 6000 rpm. What does it produce while coupled to a generator spinning at about 2000 rpm? Maybe 100hp? So the generator puts out about 75kw (without factoring in any losses). Seems like Ram is trying to sell us 'perpetual energy'.
So I am not buying it until one of you smart guys explain the engineering that I am missing.

 

[BlkGS]

I am going to declare myself as a Ramcharger doubter. I admit I am not the sharpest crayon in the box but the engineering does not make sense to me. A 130kw generator supplying power to 2 250kw motor controllers MIGHT work for flat land, un-laden driving but I can't see it performing well while towing. The pentastar v-6 produces about 300 hp at 6000 rpm. What does it produce while coupled to a generator spinning at about 2000 rpm? Maybe 100hp? So the generator puts out about 75kw (without factoring in any losses). Seems like Ram is trying to sell us 'perpetual energy'.
So I am not buying it until one of you smart guys explain the engineering that I am missing.

It's not meant to charge all the energy that the electric motors can use up. If you're driving it around at full blast somehow legally, it's not going to keep you topped off. It's meant to extend range. Realistically, the most that any load is ever going to really need to pull is probably 200ish HP. So if you spin the pentastar at say, 4000rpm, you can easily drive a generator to produce that much. And that's like, a worst case towing uphill kinda scenario.

In the real world, it will be used for people driving from one region to the other, using under 100hp to maintain a cruising speed. Maybe they'll be towing a boat or a trailer and are using 150hp to pull it. That's easy enough to extend the range of. That's it's use case, enabling a truck that would otherwise have a 150 mile range or so to make a road trip to the beach without stopping to charge for 30 minutes every 2 hours.

IMO, you have to think of Ramcharger as a PHEV. It happens to use all electric propulsion, so you get full power all the time, but it's really a PHEV, where you use up its day to day EV range in your commute, and have gas power as a backup.

Tech wise, I think it's a slam dunk. I think it's also going to be a miserable failure as a product. I think it has to offer a cost savings over a gas truck to make any sense, and I don't think it will. If I'm looking at a new Ram, and I can get a HO Hurricane truck for less money than Ramcharger, why on earth would I spend more for the Ramcharger? Maybe I'm EV curious? How many truck buyers are out there that want to experiment with an EV but also don't want to try a Rivian or Lightning or CT? Not enough, that's for sure.

My gut feel is it needs price parity with the gas trucks, and that Ram won't get that, and then they'll wonder why everyone is buying gas trucks for 20-30 grand less. The greenies will say "see nobody wants a PHEV or EREV". The gas guys will say "see nobody wants those electric trucks". Both sides will get their talking point, and nobody will say "well it's because Ram didn't price it right so there was no value prop.

 

[2kwik4u]

I am going to declare myself as a Ramcharger doubter. I admit I am not the sharpest crayon in the box but the engineering does not make sense to me. A 130kw generator supplying power to 2 250kw motor controllers MIGHT work for flat land, un-laden driving but I can't see it performing well while towing. The pentastar v-6 produces about 300 hp at 6000 rpm. What does it produce while coupled to a generator spinning at about 2000 rpm? Maybe 100hp? So the generator puts out about 75kw (without factoring in any losses). Seems like Ram is trying to sell us 'perpetual energy'.
So I am not buying it until one of you smart guys explain the engineering that I am missing.

Electric motors (and ICE motors to some extent) draw power. They don't always run at full capacity, so despite having a 250kW motor, you might only pull 30kW while cruising.

Think of the battery as a big water storage tank. You feed it with a single garden hose, and have 3 garden hoses to drain it. You can modulate both the fill rate up to the capacity of the single hose, and you can modulate the drain rate similarly. If the tank is large enough, it will take quite some time to drain it, even if you pull 3x out that you're putting in on occasion.

You are on to something though, as you are ultimately limited by the size of that tank, and the relative differential between power draw and power supply. Which is why is has a 600mi range instead of an infinite range. It will work, but it's a pretty terrible solution. You have twice the complexity in the drivetrain that you need, without any real benefit aside from bragging rights. All the complexity of the ICE systems AND all the complexity of the electric systems.

Some questions I have:

• What kind of NVH will you get running a Pentastar V6 at 4k rpm while you otherwise cruise quietly down the highway?
• Wonder what the crossover is between "time saved from not charging on a road trip" and "waiting for maintenance appointments" is?
• Where does the cabin heat come from? Heat pump attached to ICE, or an electric unit? Do I have to run the ICE in the winter to heat the cabin? What about A/C operation? Similar?
• Does the engine/battery/motors share a cooling loop? I don't think you would want the battery up around 212, but you sure don't want the engine below about 190 either.
• How much is this thing going to weigh? BEV trucks are in the 7k-10k range, this has all the EV crap AND all the ICE crap. 12k? Is that a tax/registration issue? Crash safety issue?
• Is there an actual mechanical link between the ICE and the wheels? The Chevy volt was an EREV, and the only way to actually link the wheels to the ICE was through a mechanic's interface in emergencies only. The 4Xe Jeeps let you choose which you're using, is the EREV the same way?

I like choice in the marketplace, however I'm not sure who's choosing this one. I do love the term "EV Curious" though, that's pretty funny right there

 

[Bluewater272]

I'd be first in line for it.... if it were made by Ford. I've had ICE vehicles my whole life, DGAF about maintenance, it's absolutely not a big deal. My EV has zero maintenance basically, so no extra worry there. The only drivetrain parts of the EV that I'm worried about long term (steering, suspension, etc), are also on ICEs, not a big deal. I don't care how they cool it or heat it, so long as it works. Don't care how much it weighs either (other than the obvious impact to efficiency) - weight isn't a bad thing.

When the effective range of a pickup is 100 miles with a heavy trailer, I'm simply not getting an electric truck, even as much as I would love to. If they made a BEV truck that could get me 300 miles on a tow, then I wouldn't be interested in the hybrid at all, but then I don't want to be carrying around that much battery all the time that I don't need the other 6 days of the week. I think this'll be a different conversation in 5-10 years, but for now I drive an EV 95% of the time, but have to keep an ICE truck in my driveway for the rest. If you're only ever towing locally, then it's a complete nonissue. Plus, the Ramcharger is a 1500 size truck with 2500 chops, 14K towing, and more importantly, 2600+lbs of payload capacity. My gas truck can't do that, and the EV truck can't do that for more than 2 hours under load.

 

[Bottom Bracket]

Looks like Ram is playing the market with the 2500 Hurricane and the Ramcharger. Mid 2025 release date for both from what I am seeing?
Car and Driver sez the Ramcharger will get 20mpg.
Not into whiney electric motors and neutered Amazon delivery truck Facelights.
A buddy sold his Snap on truck and is now the Senior Service Advisor at a not so close Ford dealership. He sez Ford. Local dealers have a 10.48% sales tax.
No more Govt. motors for me.
Toyota who?
My last truck is going to be a tough decision.

 

[BlkGS]

Some questions I have:

• What kind of NVH will you get running a Pentastar V6 at 4k rpm while you otherwise cruise quietly down the highway?
  
  This is a pretty valid concern, while I doubt most people will be bothered by it, because it will be isolated from the drivetrain and thus driver, it's still gonna be a motor that isn't exactly know for silly smooth operation yanking on as needed. I suspect it will be minimally invasive, with major sound proofing between the cabin and
  
• Wonder what the crossover is between "time saved from not charging on a road trip" and "waiting for maintenance appointments" is?
  
  No crossover, it's not like EVs are problem free (yours has needed how much work and still isn't right?). Plus the big stuff like suspension, brakes, tires, etc are still needed on both.
  
• Where does the cabin heat come from? Heat pump attached to ICE, or an electric unit? Do I have to run the ICE in the winter to heat the cabin? What about A/C operation? Similar?
  
  Electric. It is an EV, that just happens to have a range extender.
  
• Does the engine/battery/motors share a cooling loop? I don't think you would want the battery up around 212, but you sure don't want the engine below about 190 either.
  
  Another good point here, i'd assume they are combined, the generator is likely not going to be at full operation temperature most of the time. Then again there may be some sort of dual pass dual loop stuff going on. Will be interesting to see
  
• How much is this thing going to weigh? BEV trucks are in the 7k-10k range, this has all the EV crap AND all the ICE crap. 12k? Is that a tax/registration issue? Crash safety issue?
  I think estimates are it's gonna weigh like 7000lbs. The pentastar doesn't weigh that much, nor the ancillary stuff needed. Not compared to another 100kwh of battery at least.
  
• Is there an actual mechanical link between the ICE and the wheels? The Chevy volt was an EREV, and the only way to actually link the wheels to the ICE was through a mechanic's interface in emergencies only. The 4Xe Jeeps let you choose which you're using, is the EREV the same way?
  
  No. It is an EV. There is no mechanical linkage between the ICE motor and the drive wheels. Only the electric motors power the drive wheels.
  

I like choice in the marketplace, however I'm not sure who's choosing this one. I do love the term "EV Curious" though, that's pretty funny right there

Put some of my thoughts in the list (and failed at formatting them, lol)

I think it will have a lot of interest, but buyers is gonna be pricing dependent. There's gonna be plenty of people who are like "4 second to 60 truck? Sweet" that are interested, getting people to spend the 80k plus for one of these is the hard part.

 

[Bottom Bracket]

Hurricane will prolly need premium gas.

 

[2kwik4u]

@BlkGS This new forum software sucks for formatting quotes. Here's my try. Original in bold, you in blue, me again in orange.

• What kind of NVH will you get running a Pentastar V6 at 4k rpm while you otherwise cruise quietly down the highway?
  
  • This is a pretty valid concern, while I doubt most people will be bothered by it, because it will be isolated from the drivetrain and thus driver, it's still gonna be a motor that isn't exactly know for silly smooth operation yanking on as needed. I suspect it will be minimally invasive, with major sound proofing between the cabin and
  • I'll be very curious how it runs in person. I have a suspicion it will feel very "CVT" in operation, engine will rev up to power the generator, and it won't be directly coupled to vehicle thrust. Like a CVT.
• Wonder what the crossover is between "time saved from not charging on a road trip" and "waiting for maintenance appointments" is?
  
  • No crossover, it's not like EVs are problem free (yours has needed how much work and still isn't right?). Plus the big stuff like suspension, brakes, tires, etc are still needed on both.
  • There is absolutely a crossover here.
    
    • I'm 7,800mi in and haven't had to change the oil yet. Would have changed it twice on a new ICE.
    • Haven't even thought about transmission fluid, transfer case fluid, spark plugs, or any of that crap.
    • I haven't visited a public energy station since Thanksgiving
      
      • Figure a "fill up" is what, 10min. Once a week since Thanksgiving. That's 90min I've saved already. One oil change worth of time saved already!
  • Mine did have problems, but they were car problems, not EV vs ICE problems.
    
    • Tire balancing, alignment, fit/finish crap.
    • No vehicle is immune to that.
• Where does the cabin heat come from? Heat pump attached to ICE, or an electric unit? Do I have to run the ICE in the winter to heat the cabin? What about A/C operation? Similar?
  
  • Electric. It is an EV, that just happens to have a range extender.
  • Seems silly to throw away heat that is available from the ICE when it's running, however I get not running it all the time. Heat pump might be the answer here.
• Does the engine/battery/motors share a cooling loop? I don't think you would want the battery up around 212, but you sure don't want the engine below about 190 either.
  
  • Another good point here, i'd assume they are combined, the generator is likely not going to be at full operation temperature most of the time. Then again there may be some sort of dual pass dual loop stuff going on. Will be interesting to see
  • I'm super interested from an engineering perspective on how this is handled.
• How much is this thing going to weigh? BEV trucks are in the 7k-10k range, this has all the EV crap AND all the ICE crap. 12k? Is that a tax/registration issue? Crash safety issue?
  
  • I think estimates are it's gonna weigh like 7000lbs. The pentastar doesn't weigh that much, nor the ancillary stuff needed. Not compared to another 100kwh of battery at least.
  • Thing already comes with a 92kWh battery. I only have a 131kWh in the Rivian. I have some doubts on them getting it down to 7k lbs.
• Is there an actual mechanical link between the ICE and the wheels? The Chevy volt was an EREV, and the only way to actually link the wheels to the ICE was through a mechanic's interface in emergencies only. The 4Xe Jeeps let you choose which you're using, is the EREV the same way?
  
  • No. It is an EV. There is no mechanical linkage between the ICE motor and the drive wheels. Only the electric motors power the drive wheels.
  • That's what GM said when they launched the Volt. Curious if Ram doesn't sneak in a power transfer system at some level here.