First Tow with our Rivian!

[2kwik4u]

But the environment....

Minus the inherent sarcasm, yes

Transportation is not the goal of an EV. We have already found a myriad of ways to skin that cat. Now we have to figure out how to do it without using resources that take millennia of heat and pressure to generate. And we need to do it sooner than later.

Lithiums bad, mining is bad, PHEVs are not as bad as ICEVs, sure there are downsides. All about taking the biggest steps we can as fast as we can.

And while we're reiterating things here....long distance, heavy towing is NOT the target market for EVs (even the pickups) here. That demographic is considered as an outlier, not the norm. Manufacturers are barely addressing us, and that's OK. Lots of Home Depot running, weekend off-roading, "I just like the size" people out there to early adopt. They'll get to us eventually.

 

[BlkGS]

But the environment....

Me and the squad don't care




Jokes aside, we all recognize that a smaller battery is less bad to produce than a bigger one, and if you can do you daily routine on a small battery and have the unlimited range of an ICE co.bined, it's the best option. Unless you're co guess and you're heavily invested in the battery companies you give federal funding to, you wouldn't get as rich off your position if they don't use as big of batteries as possible.

 

[BlkGS]

Minus the inherent sarcasm, yes

Transportation is not the goal of an EV. We have already found a myriad of ways to skin that cat. Now we have to figure out how to do it without using resources that take millennia of heat and pressure to generate. And we need to do it sooner than later.

Lithiums bad, mining is bad, PHEVs are not as bad as ICEVs, sure there are downsides. All about taking the biggest steps we can as fast as we can.

And while we're reiterating things here....long distance, heavy towing is NOT the target market for EVs (even the pickups) here. That demographic is considered as an outlier, not the norm. Manufacturers are barely addressing us, and that's OK. Lots of Home Depot running, weekend off-roading, "I just like the size" people out there to early adopt. They'll get to us eventually.

Hot take, but if they put the maverick powertrain in an f150 it'd probably be good enough to satisfy the market that would buy lightnings or other electric trucks, of they sold it at a reasonable price. If you could get a nice f150 with a low boost 2.3 turbo for like 40-45k, it'd sell like hotcakes and probably hit 30ish mpg.

 

[2kwik4u]

Hot take, but if they put the maverick powertrain in an f150 it'd probably be good enough to satisfy the market that would buy lightnings or other electric trucks, of they sold it at a reasonable price. If you could get a nice f150 with a low boost 2.3 turbo for like 40-45k, it'd sell like hotcakes and probably hit 30ish mpg.

GM has a Turbo 4 in the Silverado. It does a fine job. Those that have it seem to like it. No reason Ford couldn't do the same thing.

Still not the point of an EV though.

 

[BlkGS]

GM has a Turbo 4 in the Silverado. It does a fine job. Those that have it seem to like it. No reason Ford couldn't do the same thing.

Still not the point of an EV though.

Sure, but if you want to save money, a turbo 4 that is good on gas is likely cheaper in the big picture than the EV. It might even pollute less too all in all. And it's not going to have significantly degraded range over the years. If you want a truck to take to home Depot and buy plywood, never really tow anything far, and maybe pick up some mulch (which is the use case for an EV truck) that little 4 banger will do all that for WAY less total cost.

That little GM motor is like a 2.7 I think? I bet with some extra boost it's pretty fun too. Is that what they're using on the new Colorado too?

 

[2kwik4u]

Sure, but if you want to save money, a turbo 4 that is good on gas is likely cheaper in the big picture than the EV. It might even pollute less too all in all. And it's not going to have significantly degraded range over the years. If you want a truck to take to home Depot and buy plywood, never really tow anything far, and maybe pick up some mulch (which is the use case for an EV truck) that little 4 banger will do all that for WAY less total cost.

That little GM motor is like a 2.7 I think? I bet with some extra boost it's pretty fun too. Is that what they're using on the new Colorado too?

Not sure what's in the new Colorado. I know it's a 2.7T in the Silverado/Sierra.

Also, people rarely buy what's cost effective for what they use it for. Corolla sales would dominate far more than they already do if that was the case. People buy on emotion and perception as much as they do value. The Titan is hands down the best value in a fullsize pickup you can get, in terms of the most options for the fewest dollars, but it lags behind in sales because that market doesn't buy on logic. EV's are the same way. Nobody buys them because they're cheaper, they buy them because they're an EV. I read over 75% of Rivian owners are first time truck buyers. They were looking for an EV and found a lifestyle vehicle, not looking for a truck and found an EV. Your use cases are on point logically, but aren't accounting for the enormous emotional side of purchase that JQPublic buys with.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

Not sure what's in the new Colorado. I know it's a 2.7T in the Silverado/Sierra.

Also, people rarely buy what's cost effective for what they use it for. Corolla sales would dominate far more than they already do if that was the case. People buy on emotion and perception as much as they do value. The Titan is hands down the best value in a fullsize pickup you can get, in terms of the most options for the fewest dollars, but it lags behind in sales because that market doesn't buy on logic. EV's are the same way. Nobody buys them because they're cheaper, they buy them because they're an EV. I read over 75% of Rivian owners are first time truck buyers. They were looking for an EV and found a lifestyle vehicle, not looking for a truck and found an EV. Your use cases are on point logically, but aren't accounting for the enormous emotional side of purchase that JQPublic buys with.

So many factors here. You have different points going here. Cost effective and value are two different things. If talking cost effective - the Ram Classic would dominate sales. It is 10k cheaper than the Titan (albiet way less of a truck), and in that regard the big 3 all have models starting cheaper for a similar model. I would strongly disagree the Nissan has the best value. It's pricing is dead in-line with everything else and has no unique features. The only thing it offers better than competition is it's warranty. Putting that aside value is really immeasurable because it differs from person to person.

Emotion and perception will both change the value. I love RAMs so the value is better for me, you don't like them so the value is worse for you. Of course this subject applies to everything in life. House, dogs, boats, jobs, etc.

 

[BlkGS]

Not sure what's in the new Colorado. I know it's a 2.7T in the Silverado/Sierra.

Also, people rarely buy what's cost effective for what they use it for. Corolla sales would dominate far more than they already do if that was the case. People buy on emotion and perception as much as they do value. The Titan is hands down the best value in a fullsize pickup you can get, in terms of the most options for the fewest dollars, but it lags behind in sales because that market doesn't buy on logic. EV's are the same way. Nobody buys them because they're cheaper, they buy them because they're an EV. I read over 75% of Rivian owners are first time truck buyers. They were looking for an EV and found a lifestyle vehicle, not looking for a truck and found an EV. Your use cases are on point logically, but aren't accounting for the enormous emotional side of purchase that JQPublic buys with.

I agree, and I think you're kinda hitting the point. They're not swaying the truck buying market. They're swaying people who would have bought a Tesla or maybe an x5.

The automakers need to design vehicles that appeal to the mass consumers, not just to EV people IMO.

 

[BlkGS]

So many factors here. You have different points going here. Cost effective and value are two different things. If talking cost effective - the Ram Classic would dominate sales. It is 10k cheaper than the Titan (albiet way less of a truck), and in that regard the big 3 all have models starting cheaper for a similar model. I would strongly disagree the Nissan has the best value. It's pricing is dead in-line with everything else and has no unique features. The only thing it offers better than competition is it's warranty. Putting that aside value is really immeasurable because it differs from person to person.

Emotion and perception will both change the value. I love RAMs so the value is better for me, you don't like them so the value is worse for you. Of course this subject applies to everything in life. House, dogs, boats, jobs, etc.

I dunno, in my comparison shopping, Titan was about 10k cheaper than a similarly equipped dodge or ford, plus Nissan has been running incentives on them on top of that. Tundra is priced similar and offers way more truck. GM only competes on low end trucks so they don't really matter anymore because it seems like Mary is trying to drive them out of business.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I dunno, in my comparison shopping, Titan was about 10k cheaper than a similarly equipped dodge or ford, plus Nissan has been running incentives on them on top of that. Tundra is priced similar and offers way more truck. GM only competes on low end trucks so they don't really matter anymore because it seems like Mary is trying to drive them out of business.

Incentives aside, can you provide an example?

 

[BlkGS]

Incentives aside, can you provide an example?

A loaded pro4x (you can't get the nice features and a non old man look with any other trim, platinum is 2 toned old man and brown interior stuff, SL caps out your options listTitan was like 64k, the comparable f150 lariat was 74. Ram was like 77k.

I agree that Titan doesn't have anything that makes it stand out. That doesn't bother me. The column shifter, that bothers me, lol. They're honestly overall nice trucks, and I think they compete well with the last gen f150. That's sort of the problem though, they're stuck a generation behind ram and Ford, but still a generation ahead of GM.

To me though, the real issue is if you're gonna spend 60, and you CAN spend 60, you can probably spend 75 for the better truck. If you can get that loaded titan for like50k after incentives, then it makes sense. Otherwise, I'd just buy a slightly used truck.

 

[2kwik4u]

Incentives aside, can you provide an example?

New GMC AT4 (Or TrailBoss LT) with a 6.2L is in the $68k-$70k range. New Titan Pro4X with all the options is $61k. Ford doesn't really have a "mild off roader" (with lockers, and lift). Just Searched for a RAM Rebel and can't find one for under $67k. TRD Pro starts at $69k and goes up from there.

Those are all "mild offroad" trucks that don't really compete with the TRX/Raptor/ZR2. Some have lockers, most have a mild lift and fancy shocks. All available with a V8, and a great selection of "luxury" options like pano sunroof, adaptive cruise, heated/cooled seats, etc. Nissan will get you the same or better capability in about $6k less money. Saw a Titan for $54.1k in TX the other day with incentives. LOTS of capability at that price point.

Here's one for under $50k Brand New -> https://www.collegestationnissan.com/auto/new-2023-nissan-titan-pro4x-college-station-tx/72088391/

 

[rockinthesuburbs]

Me and the squad don't care

View attachment 198441


Jokes aside, we all recognize that a smaller battery is less bad to produce than a bigger one, and if you can do you daily routine on a small battery and have the unlimited range of an ICE co.bined, it's the best option. Unless you're co guess and you're heavily invested in the battery companies you give federal funding to, you wouldn't get as rich off your position if they don't use as big of batteries as possible.

Tell me you you're gen x without saying you're gen x!

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

New GMC AT4 (Or TrailBoss LT) with a 6.2L is in the $68k-$70k range. New Titan Pro4X with all the options is $61k. Ford doesn't really have a "mild off roader" (with lockers, and lift). Just Searched for a RAM Rebel and can't find one for under $67k. TRD Pro starts at $69k and goes up from there.

Those are all "mild offroad" trucks that don't really compete with the TRX/Raptor/ZR2. Some have lockers, most have a mild lift and fancy shocks. All available with a V8, and a great selection of "luxury" options like pano sunroof, adaptive cruise, heated/cooled seats, etc. Nissan will get you the same or better capability in about $6k less money. Saw a Titan for $54.1k in TX the other day with incentives. LOTS of capability at that price point.

Here's one for under $50k Brand New -> https://www.collegestationnissan.com/auto/new-2023-nissan-titan-pro4x-college-station-tx/72088391/

Looking at the truck was just disappointing to me lol. They are literally using the same buttons designed and used in the 2000's. It looks like they designed the interior around the parts pin of an old Frontier or Armada. The discounts are nice - and they are coming back. Ram was doing an easy 20% off forever. They are doing 10% now with low interest rates.

When I compare MSRP to MSRP I just don't see it. Also doesn't help info on Nissan's website is damn near impossible to find.

Side Note: Whoever takes pictures for that dealership should be fired.

 

[rockinthesuburbs]

Looking at the truck was just disappointing to me lol. They are literally using the same buttons designed and used in the 2000's. It looks like they designed the interior around the parts pin of an old Frontier or Armada. The discounts are nice - and they are coming back. Ram was doing an easy 20% off forever. They are doing 10% now with low interest rates.

When I compare MSRP to MSRP I just don't see it. Also doesn't help info on Nissan's website is damn near impossible to find.

Side Note: Whoever takes pictures for that dealership should be fired.

Nissan does appear to be behind in updating their designs. Hell the Frontier only just got it's new design in 2021 after keeping with the same design for around 9-10 years I think the dealer said. At the same time - I found the interior much more comfortable and easier to navigate than the Tacoma. The Fender sound system in the Pro-4X sounds amazing as well. There are a lot of good things Nissan has going on for them. That's an excellent price for a Titan - only 5K less than what I paid for my Frontier - makes me just slightly jealous.

Being "Collegetown Nissan" I wonder if the person is a college kid taking them off a cell phone. My college kid just started at a dealership and this is exactly what she does LOL!

 

[2kwik4u]

Looking at the truck was just disappointing to me lol. They are literally using the same buttons designed and used in the 2000's. It looks like they designed the interior around the parts pin of an old Frontier or Armada. The discounts are nice - and they are coming back. Ram was doing an easy 20% off forever. They are doing 10% now with low interest rates.

When I compare MSRP to MSRP I just don't see it. Also doesn't help info on Nissan's website is damn near impossible to find.

Side Note: Whoever takes pictures for that dealership should be fired.

I've driven both, and I found the Nissan to be a better package overall. The only thing I didn't really like was the "lever" style buttons on the steering wheel, and the giant "box" on the shifter for gear selection. Otherwise it was all intuitive, placed well, and easily operated. In comparison I wasn't a huge fan of the Rams giant ass screen in the middle (felt like an add on that was poorly integrated into the design), and segmented cluster was overly stylized. The Ram has a much nicer ride overall, where the Nissan is still very much a stiff truck suspension.

Different strokes for different folks, however it serves to prove the point pretty well. If you're buying off a spec sheet, or some subjective emotion then you arrive at two different conclusions. At $61k MSRP, the Pro4X has the chops to compete on value with all of the equipment. However, it might not be your style. The features are there, but if you don't "like it" then you won't buy it. Same with a console shifter, I think it's the dumbest shit ever outfit on a pickup, but others can't believe I could ever want something so archaic.

If I was buying a truck today. I would be tracking down a Titan. It's the price/performance winner in my book. Not a fan of RAM's interior, GMC/Chevy feel like they have some quality issues to work through. Ford's powerboost is a strong contender, but it's way to effing expensive, and Toyota is this way too. The only real downsides to the Titan are the fuel mileage (like 16 combined, it's atrociously bad), and the absurdly heavy steering at low speed. Otherwise, I think I would complain about it the least.

I agree, that dealerships pictures blow goats for dollars.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I agree, that dealerships pictures blow goats for dollars.

I really have no idea what this means but it is hilarious lol

Another side note: I think our Jeep will be last EV style car until we are forced to buy one. They are cool, and I have no issues with the Jeep, but they just aren't hitting the spot for us. The Tesla fit a niche and paid for it's self essentially. The Jeep was a near 40k swing advantage for us, so they both made a ton of financial sense. My next car will be a ICE sports car and my wife seems pretty set on a twin-turbo v8 SUV.

 

[2kwik4u]

I really have no idea what this means but it is hilarious lol

Feel free to integrate it into your language at will. Usually catches people off guard just enough to re-rail a conversation

 

[BlkGS]

Feel free to integrate it into your language at will. Usually catches people off guard just enough to re-rail a conversation

That was honestly the highlight of my week, lol.

 

[BlkGS]

I've driven both, and I found the Nissan to be a better package overall. The only thing I didn't really like was the "lever" style buttons on the steering wheel, and the giant "box" on the shifter for gear selection. Otherwise it was all intuitive, placed well, and easily operated. In comparison I wasn't a huge fan of the Rams giant ass screen in the middle (felt like an add on that was poorly integrated into the design), and segmented cluster was overly stylized. The Ram has a much nicer ride overall, where the Nissan is still very much a stiff truck suspension.

Different strokes for different folks, however it serves to prove the point pretty well. If you're buying off a spec sheet, or some subjective emotion then you arrive at two different conclusions. At $61k MSRP, the Pro4X has the chops to compete on value with all of the equipment. However, it might not be your style. The features are there, but if you don't "like it" then you won't buy it. Same with a console shifter, I think it's the dumbest shit ever outfit on a pickup, but others can't believe I could ever want something so archaic.

If I was buying a truck today. I would be tracking down a Titan. It's the price/performance winner in my book. Not a fan of RAM's interior, GMC/Chevy feel like they have some quality issues to work through. Ford's powerboost is a strong contender, but it's way to effing expensive, and Toyota is this way too. The only real downsides to the Titan are the fuel mileage (like 16 combined, it's atrociously bad), and the absurdly heavy steering at low speed. Otherwise, I think I would complain about it the least.

I agree, that dealerships pictures blow goats for dollars.

I don't mind Titan being older inside. I don't mind the gas mileage, it runs on regular and honestly isn't that different from the competition with a V8. I think it's one of the better looking trucks. I don't even mind that it has no stand out features (ram box, powerboost, etc. I just HATE the options layout. What I really want is an SL midnight package, but with the nicer features from a platinum like cooled seats. But you CANT have that. And they don't offer a midnight package on platinum! So to get a monotone body with black appearance and nice features, you have to go pro4x. Ok, fine, I can lower it and whatever and that's fine... Except there's no aftermarket support to lower them. There's lots for the old titan that "might" work, but it's not like an f150 where you can buy a lowering package that comes with the right shims to make the angles of the powertrain and suspension all work because they've done it a million times. You might be able to hobble together adjustable parts from an off-road setup to make it all work, but then the cost goes way up and the price delta to an f150 falls off again, and while Titan is a fine truck, it's not as nice as the ram or f150.

If Nissan would just open up the SL trim to the full line of options, I'd be down for it man. Long warranty on a proven powertrain and all the features at a reasonable price? Sign me the hell up.