Garage heating suggestions needed

[Wake_Dude]

Fast forward to 12:44 of this video. See the open lines?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Fast forward to 12:44 of this video. See the open lines?

Not trying to be difficult, but the Mr Cool DYI series seems to come with a pre-charged lineset, here is their website. It is another option. although I would agree it doesn't seem to difficult to flare the lines and pull a vacuum with the others

Jim

 

[HangOutdoors]

We have been sub zero for days and the mini split we have did great and kept it warm to 70 degrees. Not an expert though and don't really understand how they work with the lower temperatures outside.

 

[Wake_Dude]

Not trying to be difficult, but the Mr Cool DYI series seems to come with a pre-charged lineset, here is their website. It is another option. although I would agree it doesn't seem to difficult to flare the lines and pull a vacuum with the others

Jim

It does not say that anywhere on their website. To be sure, I scrolled the manuals of all their products. They are installed exactly as all mini splits are setup.

See the link below, an example from the website you posted. Pay attention particularly to pages 24-29

https://mrcool.com/wp-content/dox_repo/mc-diy-3-es-im-um-en-01.pdf

 

[mwalker4]

1. The Heat Pumps not working under 32 degrees is an older rule of thumb. Current air sourced heat pumps will have a COP 2.2+ at 10 degrees and 1.6+ at 0 degrees. Meaning they give 1.6x more heat than resistive heating per energy consumed. Thus, they will work fine with the proper sizing. If I spent a lot of time in garage in winter, this is the route I would go.
2. My configuration in Central Ohio 1000 sq ft insulated attached garage: Electric resistive heaters on Freeze protect and sized to heat quickly for times I want to work in garage. Electric heaters for freeze protect rarely go on except for nights a couple of weeks in Jan and Feb. I don't spend much quality time in the garage in the winter, so the initially cheaper but less efficient resistive heating works for me.
3. I have thought about extending a vent from house to the space, but have decided against it due to building codes (fire and fumes). Still tempted as I have a geothermal heat pump for the house, but I can't get over the safety concerns.

 

[the MfM]

1. The Heat Pumps not working under 32 degrees is an older rule of thumb. Current air sourced heat pumps will have a COP 2.2+ at 10 degrees and 1.6+ at 0 degrees. Meaning they give 1.6x more heat than resistive heating per energy consumed. Thus, they will work fine with the proper sizing. If I spent a lot of time in garage in winter, this is the route I would go.
2. My configuration in Central Ohio 1000 sq ft insulated attached garage: Electric resistive heaters on Freeze protect and sized to heat quickly for times I want to work in garage. Electric heaters for freeze protect rarely go on except for nights a couple of weeks in Jan and Feb. I don't spend much quality time in the garage in the winter, so the initially cheaper but less efficient resistive heating works for me.
3. I have thought about extending a vent from house to the space, but have decided against it due to building codes (fire and fumes). Still tempted as I have a geothermal heat pump for the house, but I can't get over the safety concerns.

Fujitsu has a series that puts out 100% of rated heated output down to -5 or lower…much better then some others. I know Mitsubishi has similar models. And maybe others do as well. But many of the second tier imports like Mr Cool do not have anywhere near the same cold weather performance.

Probably doesn’t matter in Delaware though.

 

[the MfM]

It does not say that anywhere on their website. To be sure, I scrolled the manuals of all their products. They are installed exactly as all mini splits are setup.

See the link below, an example from the website you posted. Pay attention particularly to pages 24-29

https://mrcool.com/wp-content/dox_repo/mc-diy-3-es-im-um-en-01.pdf

I don’t know if they still sell them but they have or had some that came with a special line set. It was pre purged with a special valve on each end ... Connect the lines and open the valves. No gauges or pump needed.

You couldnt cut it to length so people were leaving the excess coiled up. Which is ugly and probably not good long term.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I don’t know if they still sell them but they have or had some that came with a special line set. It was pre purged with a special valve on each end ... Connect the lines and open the valves. No gauges or pump needed.

You couldnt cut it to length so people were leaving the excess coiled up. Which is ugly and probably not good long term.

Thank you @the MfM , this is the Mc Cool DIY (not their Advantage) series that I note above an what I have been trying to explain to @Wake_Dude. In my post #22, in one scrolls down to the video (around the 2:00 mark, you can see the capped lines as the tech connects them to the heat pump. I would agree the coiled up lines look ugly and look like the installation is not finished.

@Wake_Dude, I do appreciate the comment, "Mini splits are sold with enough refrigerant up to a given lineset length. If the lineset you want to run is going to exceed the refrigerant capacity of what was filled in the outdoor unit (sold as), an HVAC tech, or yourself (easy to do), will need to add more refrigerant. All of the regrigerant is housed in the outdoor unit when it is shipped. There is nothing in the lines." This is super helpful to know! Do they usually spec out the line length in the install manuals?

Jim

 

[Crob83]

Just the thread I needed, looking to do the same thing with heat/ac combo

 

[Crob83]

Riddle me this. I know it's illegal and has been for a while, but my old house built in '91 had this and I miss it. Both my old and current house have the furnace in the garage area and is very accessible. They obviously both have a bulkhead above for duct running. The old house just had 2 vents cut into the bulkhead that kept the garage very cool in summer and warm in the winter. My current house was built in 2006 and it was against code at that time. Couldn't I just do it myself and solve my problem for extremely cheap

 

[Wake_Dude]

Thank you @the MfM , this is the Mc Cool DIY (not their Advantage) series that I note above an what I have been trying to explain to @Wake_Dude. In my post #22, in one scrolls down to the video (around the 2:00 mark, you can see the capped lines as the tech connects them to the heat pump. I would agree the coiled up lines look ugly and look like the installation is not finished.

@Wake_Dude, I do appreciate the comment, "Mini splits are sold with enough refrigerant up to a given lineset length. If the lineset you want to run is going to exceed the refrigerant capacity of what was filled in the outdoor unit (sold as), an HVAC tech, or yourself (easy to do), will need to add more refrigerant. All of the regrigerant is housed in the outdoor unit when it is shipped. There is nothing in the lines." This is super helpful to know! Do they usually spec out the line length in the install manuals?

Jim

Nope! Still incorrect.

Which model of DIY are you referring to? Product manual Link? The link I posted is for a "DIY" series mini split. Look at page 28 of the manual link. You can clearly see the tech place a hex key in the valve to release the refrigerant stored in the outdoor unit.

@the MfM The capped lines are to keep moisture and contaminants out of them. Some have a tiny amount of nitrogen or other inert gas in them to sort of "purge" the lines before making connections. They don't have any refrigerant in them. If the lines were in fact pressurized, the second you released the caps to make connections, all the refrigerant would turn to a gaseous state and shoot out of the line (possibly causing injury) into the atmosphere. I imagine it's also highly illegal to sell/ship a pressurized line like that.

Some of the Mr. Cool have "Quick Connect" couplings vs. the standard Flare nut setup. Those types of lines would need to stay coiled unless you trust your soldering/splicing abilities.......

 

[Wake_Dude]

Since a printed manual is not getting my point across, here is a full installation video of the Mr. Cool DIY series. FF to 2:26 Notice open caps before connection? Notice how no pressurized refrigerant is flying in the tech's face? Notice the tech using a hex wrench to open the refrigerant valves once connected?

 

[OCMD]

Buy a used pellet stove and set it up in a corner, vented out a window. Cheap to run, and incredible warmth. I bought an updated one for my main house floor and put the old one in the garage. Easy set up, instant heat. When done, shut it off.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Nope! Still incorrect.

Which model of DIY are you referring to? Product manual Link? The link I posted is for a "DIY" series mini split. Look at page 28 of the manual link. You can clearly see the tech place a hex key in the valve to release the refrigerant stored in the outdoor unit.

@the MfM The capped lines are to keep moisture and contaminants out of them. Some have a tiny amount of nitrogen or other inert gas in them to sort of "purge" the lines before making connections. They don't have any refrigerant in them. If the lines were in fact pressurized, the second you released the caps to make connections, all the refrigerant would turn to a gaseous state and shoot out of the line (possibly causing injury) into the atmosphere. I imagine it's also highly illegal to sell/ship a pressurized line like that.

Some of the Mr. Cool have "Quick Connect" couplings vs. the standard Flare nut setup. Those types of lines would need to stay coiled unless you trust your soldering/splicing abilities.......

Okay, lets try this one more time. When I said lines were "pre-charged" that obviously was an error. As @the MfM, notes, the lines on some units (like the Mr Cool DIY) are "pre-purged" so no vacuum needs to be drawn. I know that there is a difference between "pre-charged" and "pre-purged" and this appears to be the point you are trying to across. I get it, and I appreciate you effort to educate me and it has happened. Bottom line, is that no flaring or the lines and no pulling of a vacuum in the lines has to be done and this is the selling point of the Mr Cool (although one would end up with the ugly coil of excess lines.

I have learned that flaring of the lines and pulling a vacuum is pretty simple to do, and the DIY tools to do so are relatively inexpensive (about $200). For my room above the garage, I may purchase one of the 18,000 btu DuctlessAire mini-splits and do the entire install (including cutting/flaring the lines and pulling a vacuum from the lines).

Jim

 

[Wake_Dude]

Okay, lets try this one more time. When I said lines were "pre-charged" that obviously was an error. As @the MfM, notes, the lines on some units (like the Mr Cool DIY) are "pre-purged" so no vacuum needs to be drawn. I know that there is a difference between "pre-charged" and "pre-purged" and this appears to be the point you are trying to across. I get it, and I appreciate you effort to educate me and it has happened. Bottom line, is that no flaring or the lines and no pulling of a vacuum in the lines has to be done and this is the selling point of the Mr Cool (although one would end up with the ugly coil of excess lines.

I have learned that flaring of the lines and pulling a vacuum is pretty simple to do, and the DIY tools to do so are relatively inexpensive (about $200). For my room above the garage, I may purchase one of the 18,000 btu DuctlessAire mini-splits and do the entire install (including cutting/flaring the lines and pulling a vacuum from the lines).

Jim

I agree. The term "pre-charged" that Mr. Cool uses is a misnomer sales marketing gimmick. Like you said, all it does is eliminate the purge step; which is nice, but it's not a big deal to do anyway. No actual R410A in those lines, although the way they advertise seems that way.

It really is an easy project to tackle. With a little research, they are very simple to install. The evacuation step is very very simple. Heck, you could do it with a harbor freight vacuum pump and a gauge set. Making flare connections are even easier; with a caveat, a quality flaring tool is needed. The cheapies will lead to leaks. You want those flares done right the first time.

Also, not very keen on where the Mr. Cool units are made, but when I was doing research before purchasing mine, I found that most brands used the same Chicom manufacturer. There isn't much variation in their design. A lot of them are the same units, just rebadged. When I realized that, I went for the best warranty at the time. The reason I mention this is that there are other brands out there that are probably cheaper than the Mr. Cool, may have better/same warranties. I'd definitely shop around; you might be able to save some coin. I've had good luck with the Air-Con and Pioneer brands. No issues with them whatsoever. YMMV

If you decide to tackle this project, or anyone else, let me know. I'm glad to help.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@Wake_Dude, thanks for your posts to this thread. Initially, I thought the units needed a tech and has since concluded its a job that I can handle. Big savings on having the unit installed. The HVAC sub-contractor on our house build wanted $5400 for the mini-split and the install. I'm figuring that I can do it for about $1800 (including some more tools, man I love an excuse for more tools!), then I qualify for a $300 federal tax rebate as my house will be an existing home and no longer new construction!

 

[Wake_Dude]

@Wake_Dude, thanks for your posts to this thread. Initially, I thought the units needed a tech and has since concluded its a job that I can handle. Big savings on having the unit installed. The HVAC sub-contractor on our house build wanted $5400 for the mini-split and the install. I'm figuring that I can do it for about $1800 (including some more tools, man I love an excuse for more tools!), then I qualify for a $300 federal tax rebate as my house will be an existing home and no longer new construction!

No problem Jim. I say go for it! It's a fun project that's not too difficult, and as you discovered, the cost savings is significant. More money for boat goodies!

 

[TimW451]

@Jim_in_Delaware I would the mini split if you want AC and heat, or a portable propane heater if you only need heat. I am ~2 hrs north of where you are moving and have looked at both of these options. It sounds like your plan is to only use these while occupying the garage, and I agree with that, because despite all the insulation you’ll probably have a lot of leakage around the doors. I would also recommend you consider the direction you garage doors and exterior walls face and how many windows you have in regard to load, if you have not already.

I’ve looked at the mr cool DYI, and I think the 25 ft line kit will reach for what I’d do, and it is frequently on sale at Home Depot. If I had more line I could locate the inside and outside units better, and lucky for me my neighbor is a commercial HVAC guy who I can lean on to help/pay and use a non-DYI kit.

I am cheap, er frugal, and feel I really only need heat though. I’d rather run a propane line into the garage and use a portable propane heater. Unfortunately I don’t have a plumber connection anymore and would have to pay someone to do that, which means it could cost me more than the mini split.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@TimW451, I think I have decided for an electric heater for the garage (24'x28'x11') and a single zone mini-split for the 14'x24' storage room above the garage.

I had considered propane to heat the garage as I do have an underground 500 gallon tank, but its pretty far to run a line and when I calculated the cost to operate (30,000 btu's), electric and propane costs were about the same. I may buy one of these King units, as they have pretty good reviews and as a bonus are made in the U.S.



For the room above the garage, I'll probably get a 18,000 btu mini-split. As the room is above the garage, I can just run the lines inside the garage wall (2"x6" framing), probably in the open section just to the right of the outlet, and then outside just above the block foundation.



I was strongly considering the Mr Cool DIY unit, but will probably go with another unit instead. I have watched a couple of videos on-line and the lines only need vacuumed, not charged. I will likely buy a decent flaring tube tool (about $50) and a vacuum pump with gauges (about $150). I think the hardest part is the electrical, and honestly it's not all that difficult to do. I will just need to make sure that my panel box has room for two 240 volt breakers (one for the heater and one for the mini-split), otherwise I will hire an electrician to put in another box.

Jim

 

[HangOutdoors]

Just as an FYI. When had our Mini Split installed I had them put it up off the ground about 2' for snow and other crap to stay out of it and mounted to the house on the outside. They mounted it originally to the wood siding and I had them move it to the brick since the slight vibration would resonate on the wood and it was annoying enough. I was told that they make extra absorbers for the mount that would absorb the vibration, but I had them move it to the brick anyhow.