intermittent engine starting

[Scottintexas]

Not really sure what to call this problem yet other than sometimes the starter won't respond,

2007 AR230, 450 hours no previous starting issues,

only used the boat about 15 hours in 2020, second trip out this year, first trip was about a month ago, stored over the winter with a full tank and stabilizer, battery was removed and on charger/tender, boat ran great for about two hours then back home,

left the battery in the boat but disconnected both cables, started in the driveway fine, within a second or two of cranking,

unloading, cranked right up, drove out to our tubing spot, once we were ready to start one engine died when I was accelerating, stopped, fired it up with no problem then the other engine died, took a second to make sure it wasn't operator error, fired it up and for the next hour we were stopping/starting without issue

after an hour stopped to pick someone from the water and wouldn't crank, no solenoid click, just a low "growl" or hum from both somewhere when turning the key, immediately threw the anchor to asses, after a try or two, not even the growl or hum, turn the key and zero, removed and re-attached both battery cables to make sure they had good contact,

another boat stopped, gave us a jump pack, it would crank very slowly on both engines but not even close to firing, his jump pack lcd said 12.7 v

at the boat dock I had my daughter bring us jump pack and battery from the jeep, the jump pack didn't do anything, I hooked the jeep battery up, one engine ( I believe the starboard) fired immediately and sounded good, I tried to start the other and I'm not sure if I accidently hit the key and turned the running engine off or it stopped by itself, anyways, on restart only had the low growl/hum again on both engines,

our neighbor showed up with a giant battery from his bass boat, put the jumper cables on it to the jeep battery, one engine fired up within a second of cranking, the other engine cranked for almost 10 seconds ( I was just about to stop cranking it was so long) and then it fired,

both engines when running sounded good, only ran them for maybe five minutes to go from the dock to loaded on the trailer ( hit it first attempt with about 25mph crosswind and everybody watching )

back at home checked the batteries,
original had 11.4 v
jeep battery had 12.7

I could understand a bad battery but two jump packs and the jeep battery wouldn't work and why would it go from no problem to growl/hum to zero within three turns of the key

I thought about ecu / starter issues but isn't it strange both engines not responding and then they fired with the big battery

just looking for ideas on what to look at first ?

 

[Neutron]

I would most definitely start with a new battery or charge that one and load test it. If it has a bad cell it would give you issues even with a jump pack.

 

[Scottintexas]

So I charged my original group 24 battery (it was seven years since I bought it ) on my little battery tender it blinked green to indicate 80% charged and overnight went solid green for "maintaining" mode, I took all three batteries I tried to Autozone to load test them,

my two group 24 batteries which both showed good on the charger were deemed "needing to be replaced"
the third group 58 jeep battery which was still in red charging mode was also not good,

I bought a new group 24 battery, put it on the charger overnight so to make sure it was topped off, showed 12.7 v

hooked it up yesterday and still no crank, warning buzzer (no blower fan) but other bilge light and other interior lights work (stereo currently doesn't work because of that stupid hand held mic disconnected) and Perfect pass back light comes on and beeps but never goes into active mode.

checked my main battery fuse on the wall in the battery compartment, accessory/stereo fuse, and fuses in the ecu with a multimeter and they were all good. also worked dead man switch, cleanout switch and worked the throttles for neutral

frustrated and thinking I was going to have to pull safety switches, I called my neighbor and asked to borrow his giant trolling motor battery again since it had started immediately with it at the boat dock the day of the problem,



It fired right up, barely even turned the engine before it was running,

So I know all my switches, ECU, and starters are ok,

just wondering why my group 24 battery with 750 CCA won't even make the solenoid click ?? ( I did at one point the original day have a growl/hum happening)

I've got my new group 24 battery on the charger and will take it tonight back to the store for them to load test it,

 

[gt5pilot]

If your new battery showed 12V after being on a charger all night, then something is off. How were you measuring the battery voltage, with a DVM?

 

[Scottintexas]

How were you measuring the battery voltage, with a DVM?

with my little hand held digital multi-meter

 

[gt5pilot]

I would expect a new battery to measure 12.6V at the terminals, fully charged and no load. 12V is basically a 50% state of charge LA battery.

 

[Scottintexas]

sorry, my post was not correct, the new battery I bought at the terminal was 12.7 or 12.8 v ( i'm going back to edit it now )

 

[gt5pilot]

haha, been there and done that - have the t-shirt to prove it!

Can you put your DVM on the terminals and look at the battery voltage when cranking? You may have a starter winding that is shorted and causing excess current draw (that will show as really low voltage on the battery when you try and start it) and may explain why the mondo battery can turn over the motor (more CCA).

 

[Scottintexas]

Can you put your DVM on the terminals and look at the battery voltage when cranking? .

yes, I'll try that tonight or tomorrow, thanks for the idea

 

[kjr6306]

If both engines will not crank over, you do not have a starter going bad on one engine. Think logically. I am not sure if there is possibly a single starter relay for both engines on this boat.... but it looks to me to be probably a safety switch that's going bad. It has to be something that regulates power to both starters.

 

[84rzv500r]

what does the bass boat battery behavior tell you? it has enough voltage and reserve current capacity to overcome the weak jeep battery, any resistance in the cables or connections and still start the engines. After you got started did you feel all the cables? the bad ones will be HOT... These boats have 2 starter relays one for each engine and are sensitive to battery voltage... in the jetski these start with a little 19 Ah battery so a good group 24 LA should spin it right over... 12.7-12.8 is all your gonna get out of a LA battery... but voltage is not the total indicator of battery health... you need to test them under load.. it is very possible to get a OLD NEW battery... and a NEW NEW battery that is defective... look at the MFG date on the battery... heat and vibration and total discharge cycles destroy LA batteries... AGM is better LiFePO4 is the current leader... this will change as batteries are a HOT research topic

I bit the bullet and switched from 4 x group 29 LA deep cycle to 1 x Dakota Lithium Group 24 Start/Deep Cycle 60 Ah LiFePO4 for starting and 2 x group 29 Ampere Time 100Ah Deep Cycle's on the house side... I see 14.1V a peak charge and these run nominally 13.9-14.1 and replaced all the 20 year old power cables with new marine grade tinned copper... starts perfectly...

 

[Scottintexas]

a little more anecdotal testing yesterday,

hooked up the trolling battery,
port - cranked and started immediately
stbd - I let the perfect pass cycle on, it beeped for what I remember a long time maybe 10-15 beeps, turned the key - nothing
tried the port again and nothing
tried stbd again, not waiting on PP to cycle and nothing
I think I didn't have a working blower at this time, I ran through the other dash switches and they seemed to activate

disconnected the battery and reconnected, the blower started, I had left it in the on position
port cranked and started
stbd - waited for PP to cycle, again seemed longer than usual, turned the key and nothing
tried port again and nothing

disconnected the battery and reconnected
stbd - did not wait for PP to cycle, went from on to start immediately and it cranked and started
port cranked and started
checked the voltage when starting and didn't see any big draw, it went to maybe 12.4

feeling good I hooked up the group 24 battery,
port - nothing
stbd - nothing

disconnected the battery and reconnected
port - cranked and started immediately
stbd - did not wait for PP to cycle, went from on to start immediately and it cranked and started

left the group 24 battery connected and started the engines about 10 more times,
felt the cables at the battery and the cables at the ECU and they were not even warm

at this point I'm starting to wonder
1. my perfect pass is spliced into my STBD power and wondering if it's long activation cycle is an issue, but why would it affect the port engine ?

2. my blower didn't seem to work, I need to figure out if the blower is blowing the circuit breaker and that is cutting off the ignition power to both engines ? I rarely run my blower but my daughter unloaded the boat off the trailer the day of the problem and not sure if she hit it by mistake while turning on the bilge, we didn't turn the engines off until we were in the tubing area and that was the first indication of a problem, but the engines did start,

3. I have all my hot /ground wires attached so that I only have a single wire to the pos/neg posts, they seem very secure but maybe I'll undo those and to back to multiple wires on the post to eliminate that as a possibility

@Beachbummer - do you know/think the blower would cut off ignition power if the circuit blows ?

 

[Beachbummer]

I don't think so.

If we take the blower off the equation thinking she might have hit the wrong switch...


I suspect your starter solenoid for port engine is marginal. If it happens again, you can open the small window in the ecu to expose the relay and try jumping the relay directly to confirm/invalidate my theory.

When mine started to fail I thought I had a battery problem, but it was the relay/solenoid in the end.

 

[Scottintexas]

but how would that affect both engines to go to "no crank or even solenoid clicking" ?? that's what I'm having a hard time connecting the dots in diagnosing it ??

I will definitely try to jump it at the relay at the next "no start"

 

[Speedling]

Starter relay for the mr1 wasn't hard. Just inside the ecu box. I don't Know if the 1.8 is the same way. Usually fairly inexpensive and would eliminate Some confusion As to where the problem is coming from. I think you should be able to use a multimeter on the relay as well but i don't Recall.

 

[Speedling]

but how would that affect both engines to go to "no crank or even solenoid clicking" ?? that's what I'm having a hard time connecting the dots in diagnosing it ??

I will definitely try to jump it at the relay at the next "no start"

You're Not wrong in your thinking. Unless one was trying to draw power but not actually start all the time or something Super wierd

 

[84rzv500r]

these are MR-1's right? go back to basics... off the top of my head What does YDS say?

starter relay is independent of ECU so I'd start there... crowbar the relay should crank the engine... then crank by jumping the red and brown wire in the harness, then the key switch... once you have reliable cranking then we can go on to the next step.

When you power on the key switch the fuel pump should run for 30sec and pressurize the fuel system this means that the ECU is alive and can fire the pump relay. verify 47-49 PSI

now connect up YDS and see if you can see all the sensors... and they show in spec... and check TPS signal voltage is in spec nom. 0.747v

YDS can show you the state of all the inputs to the ECU...

 

[Scottintexas]

the past few days I've gone out and reconnected the group 58 battery and both engines fire up immediately, yesterday I did disconnect my perfect pass just to take it out of the equation,

thinking the problem was probably gone, I took the YDS out last night, drug a hose out and extension cord since my old laptop doesn't run on battery anymore,

first turn of the port key, almost want to say I hear a click or puff like a fuse blowing from the battery area as I engage the key to the "on" position and nothing, disconnected /reconnected the battery and it fired right up got my YDS readings and then did the starboard side,

I know I was supposed to try to jump it at the solenoid since I had a no start but it was still 95, dark and I had already drug all the YDS stuff out so I just wanted to get it done,

below is my YDS results which of course seem normal (since it started and was running fine)

Save date June 06 2022
ECM No.: 6P68591A00

Diagnosis
Code Item Result Condition
13 Pulser coil Normal
15 Engine temp sensor Normal
18 Throttle position sensor Normal
19 Battery voltage Normal
23 Intake temp sensor Normal
24 Cam position sensor Normal
29 Intake press sensor Normal
47 Slant detection switch Normal
54 Bypass valve motor Normal
55 Steering switch Normal
63 Throttle body Normal
68 No-Wake mode switch Normal

Diagnosis Record
Total hours of operation 450.7
Code Item Occurred
Overheat warning 116.95
Low oil pressure warning 259.51

Engine Monitor
Monitor Item Result Unit
Engine speed 1619 r/min
Intake pressure 76.92 kPa
Intake pressure 22.5 inHg
Atmospheric pressure 981.9 hPa
Atmospheric pressure 29 inHg
Ignition timing BTDC 6 deg
Battery voltage (12-16) 13.09 V
TPS voltage (0.5-4.5) 0.752 V
Throttle valve opening (0-90) 1.3 deg
Fuel injection duration 3.9 ms
Engine temperature (below 130) 48 °C
Engine temperature (below 266) 118.4 °F
Intake temperature (below 70) 35 °C
Intake temperature (below 158) 95 °F
Bypass valve motor 0 step
Engine stop lanyard switch OFF
Overheat thermoswitch OFF
Slant detection switch OFF
Oil press switch OFF
Steering switch OFF
No-Wake mode switch OFF

Data Logger[Engine operating hours according to engine speed]
Engine speed Time[h]
- 2000 r/min 144.2
2000 - 4000 r/min 52.69
4000 - 6000 r/min 13.61
6000 - 8000 r/min 190.86
8000 - 10000 r/min 48.13
10000 - 12000 r/min 1.24
Engine hours 450.7

Data Logger[Data comparison graph]
Engine speed[r/min] Battery voltage (12-16)[V] TPS voltage (0.5-4.5)[V] Engine temperature (below 120)[°C] Intake pressure[kPa] Oil press switch[0:OFF 1:ON]
1550 13.3 0.74 47 79.1 0
1650 13.3 0.74 47 78.7 0
1550 13 0.74 47 79.1 0
1600 13.1 0.74 47 75.7 0
1600 13.3 0.74 47 73.2 0
1650 13.3 0.74 48 73.2 0
1650 13.3 0.74 48 78.7 0
1450 13.3 0.74 48 74.2 0
1600 13.3 0.74 48 73.2 0
1600 13.2 0.74 48 75.2 0
1550 13.3 0.74 48 78.7 0
1550 13.3 0.74 48 73.2 0
1600 13.3 0.74 48 75.2 0

 

[Babin Farms]

Sounds like you have a circuit breaker tripping for some reason(weak maybe) and the time it takes you to disconnect/connect the battery it resets itself. Maybe have your daughter try to start it next time while you have your head in the battery area listening for the noise that you recently heard and narrow down where it's coming from.

 

[84rzv500r]

ok I suspect it is either a main power cable or ground and like someone else said the starter relays could be getting burned contactors in them (likely from bad main cables or connections or weak batteries)

I don't see any self resetting circuit breakers in the schematic... I had added one on my boat on the main circuit up to the console but have since eliminate that since all of the circuits off that line are breaker protected, the 20A main fuse in the MR-1 harness covers the ecu, fuel pumps, and sensors. I have other breakers/fuses covering anything else fed off the main DC bus bars... Aux bilge, fire suppression, aux power for lighting, trim tabs, audio power amp, and the radar ect.

when you turn on the key there are two relays that fire... the main power relay and the fuel pump relay... turning the key to start engages the starter relay... that's all the relays on the boat and engine harness nominally.. unrelated to engine operation and start there is likely a relay that controls the audio amp power integral to that amp signaled from the head unit and in my case I added a relay to control the power to the trim tab up and down.

BCi Battery Dimensions