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new AR195 with questions

kyle

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So this was our second trip out, and first water sports day. It was a blast but I have a couple questions. First trip out was to the Ohio River and was just a "get used to the boat day." We had 7 people on board but two of them were 26lbs and the other 42 lbs. That day we saw a top speed of 50mph and around 7600 rpms. Yesterday we set out on the lake, had more stuff with us and an extra person as well as a tube strapped to the lower deck. Obviously, I knew the speed was going to be down which it was, top speed of 41, but the rpms never went above 7150. Is that normal? I expected rpms to be the same but speed down.

Second question, what anchor do you guys use. We got the anchor that comes with the boat nearly stuck in the rocks and had all but given up on getting it back when it finally popped out.

We added the thrust vectors this trip and they were awesome, could that have affected the rpms? I didn't think so because they pop up at speed.

Lastly, what is the best way to rig the rope for two tubes at once? I wasn't prepared for that yesterday so we only used one at a time. Do you hook both ropes at the same point? What length rope do you use? We had 60 feet and was too close to the boat because you get blasted with jet spray.
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haknslash

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With people sitting in the bow it will considerably affect the top speed on the 19' boats. With just my wife and daughter in the front (they weigh less than 200 lbs combined) my speed can drop 3-4 mph. I've never had more than 5 people on my boat so I can't say what my rpm's would have been given your load.

I use the Yamaha deluxe danforth anchor and a small box anchor made by Slideanchor.

I don't think your TV's are affecting your speed as they come up at speed and don't sit in the water. Next time you have a load of people onboard once you get on plane have them move to the back and see if your speed picks up. I bet it does just like mine did ;)

I haven't pulled our tube yet but most say you need at least 70' feet to get past the jet wash. You can use those spray ballas as well to knock down some of the jet wash spray.
 

Freezer41

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Did you check the clean out port? Maybe something was limiting your RPM. As for the tube rope we had to buy two two-piece tube ropes that come in a 50+10 config so now we are at 50+10+10 and have a 50ft segment that is brand new sitting in storage.
 

kyle

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Nothing was in the clean out port. It is so weird.
 

Midnight2V

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Hi, I don't have the 195, I have the 192. But I have done a lot of research an work on both of these engines.

Even if it was an issue of weight slowing the boat down, that wouldn't change your RPM limit. If your weight increases, RPM would stay the same - more hull in the water due to more weight, with no additional thrust, causes speed loss. Lower RPM means less thrust, which when combined with more weight, certainly results in speed loss.

It's important to remember these are jet ski engines engineered for moving three passengers on an 800 pound ski. Yamaha threw these engines in a 2300 pound 8 passenger boat and made zero changes to the cooling system. Is the SVHO a better engine than the SHO...absolutely. Is it set up for boating...unfortunately no.

From what you say, your problem sounds a lot like heat soak on the intercooler. On 192s this is due to a combination of an undersized intercooler and insufficient flow of cooling water for the load created by boating activity. When the intake charge air is too hot, the computer significantly cuts back RPM, richens up the AFR, and pulls timing. High ambient air and water temps magnify the problem considerably.

Now granted, the SVHO intercooler is larger, but the cooling water supply it receives is not much more than a 192, and it has a higher heat load due to a higher boost level. Check your two intercooler outlets (pissers) on the starboard side of the boat. At idle you should have some flow out of each, a smaller steady stream. At full throttle you should have quite a bit more.

Perhaps you have a partial clog of your cooling line, check your outlets to see if that's the case. Also take off the jet pump strainer cover and remove the strainer to check for clogs at that location.

Another possibility is that your throttle cable slipped on a hard bounce and it no longer gets to the stop when the throttle handle is at its stop. To check this, place the throttle in full and check the cable in the engine compartment to ensure the cable flag is flush against the stop.

If you don't find a flow or cable issue, I think it is entirely possible that this could be a problem of heat soak. Let us know what you find and we can try to help further.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
 

kyle

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Thank you so much. I'll check that stuff this week. As far as the jet pump strainer. I'm a total newb, what exactly are you referring to. I crawled under and looked at the intake grate and checked inside the impeller housing and all looks perfect as it should for a boat with 9 hrs
 

Midnight2V

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The jet pump strainer is underneath the swim platform on the jet pump. It is enclosed inside a small rectangular plate (roughly 2.5 x 4.5 inches) located on the port side of the pump housing. The plate has 4 fasteners with 10mm hex heads. It takes five mins to unbolt, remove, inspect, and replace. Just don't overtorque the steel bolts in the aluminum when you reinstall.
 

kyle

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well, all checked out just fine. The throttle cable was perfect, nothing in the pump screen, and when hooked up to water all three pissers were squirting. Guess the 195 has three instead of two. I currently have 10.1 hours on the engine so I plan on doing an oil change before this weekend. I will see how the next couple trips go and if need be will take it to the dealer at the end of the season. The water temp was 86 degrees and so was the air temp. But I immediately noticed the lower rpms right out of the marina before the engine was hot. I would have thought it took a minute of speed to heat up enough to affect performance? All considered I guess 40 is still pretty dang fast with a full load. Does anyone know what RPMS I should be getting? Maybe 7200 on the 2017 AR195 is normal?
 

druppert

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I got mine (SX 195) in January & it had a max of 52 (how & onboard speedo) in cooler weather/water with 6 people (2 toddlers) onboard. With just my girlfriend it maxes at 52 and alone it maxes at 52. The only time I've gone WOT & not been able to break 50 was when I had 5 onboard with 2 guys (400 lbs combined) in the bow. I was stuck at 47-48 but I don't remember the RPMs being down.

Now that I've had the boat a while I'm not as concerned with the top speed, especially since the people I boat with are always telling me to slow down. 25-30 seems to be a nice speed for these boats with the higher speeds reserved for emergency or showing off.

As for your anchor question I use a 9 lb galvanized Rocna Vulcan on the front & a small slide anchor for holding the stern on the beach. Great combo IMO. Others use a Mantus which is very similar to the rocna and significantly cheaper. I'd have gone with a mantus too if I wasn't impatient (not avail on prime). A lot of people also swear by the box anchor it just doesn't look like something that will dig deep & hold to me personally. Hope this helps & happy boating!
 

2kwik4u

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Here's the anchor I'm using. used it a couple times on the Ohio down here in Louisville. I would expect it to work equally as well just up river from me! This thread has a lot of good info in it beyond my posts, and is probably worth a read.

What anchors are you guys using? (my initial response)

What anchors are you guys using? (my follow up)

I can't speak to the revs/speed as I have a non-supersharged AR190, but I can agree that people in the bow drops speed in a hurry. The bimini up/down affects mine as well. Bimini down (strapped to the tower), and nobody in the front with 4 adults in the rear seats I've hit 43mph in my non boosted boat. With 2 adults in the bow, and the bimini deployed I usually top out around 37-38mph, and comfortably cruise around 27-30mph at 6k rpm-ish.

I've found over the years only a select group of friends ever wants to check the top speed. Most are content to just cruise around in the sun, sit and relax, or watch the watersports out the back.
 

Midnight2V

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There is something else to consider when it comes to these supercharged boat engines with intercoolers regardless if they are SHO, SVHO, or even aftermarket units. This problem is something Yamaha did not consider since all the test boating is done in the North on cold clear water lakes. Dealers never see the problem because they use brand new boats or just take your boat for a quick spin and say they couldn't find it.

This condition is scale buildup, which is detrimental to any heat exchange system. The scale is composed of microbial/tiny marine life, and minerals present in any body of open water. Heating action and water flow cause deposition on the water side of any open water heat exchanger when it exceeds roughly 140 degrees Fahrenheit. As most of you probably know, the water coming out of our intercooler pissers can go well above that. And that's after 5 feet of hose as well.

When the intercooler can't bring charge air temperature (this is the temperature of air at the throttle blade as measured by the BAR Map sensor) low enough for the engine to safely use it, the computer steps in. It lowers AFR by injecting more fuel to cool the air charge, this causes power loss and increased fuel consumption. It also pulls timing to prevent knock or pre-detonation, again lowering power. And it lowers max rpm to reduce boost level, to subsequently reduce air heat up, to subsequently reduce charge air temps to safe levels. Power aside, RPM is thrust, thrust generates velocity. Velocity is what all this about.

This problem is exactly why that first time you took your boat out it ran like a raped ape, but then it got slower the next time and then slower again. Until the scale had covered every surface of your intercoolers water side, and you were left with a level of performance that is simply unacceptable. You probably never noticed because you had friends or gear or rough water. Or in my case, BEER! It may be that the first lake you went to was a glorified mud hole and you NEVER saw full speed once your break-in was done.

The simplest description of what is happening is that you are literally cooking microbial marine life to your intercooler and forming a calcium scale layer over what is supposed to be your main heat transfer surface. We ex-navy engineering guys call this a crud layer.

The speed at which this scale forms is dependent on water exit temp (How hot it got), water mineral content (how much crud there is in the water), the size of the water channels in your intercooler (clearance), and the amount of time the scaling threshold is surpassed.

This layer can drastically hinder heat transfer. Instead of copper or aluminum being your main contact point with the water, now it must go through another solid boundary with a much lower thermal conductivity capability.

Flushing with hose water after you trailer the boat will NOT remove this scale.

The hotter the air, the hotter the water gets. More boost creates more heat, that means that this will eventually become a problem for any boat intercooler using a raw water system that heats the water past that critical point.

How to fix it? You can remove and descale your intercooler with a descaling agent. You can also disconnect the water lines and recirculate a descaling mix using an external pump.

How to prevent this? The only thing you can do is reduce the peak temperature of the water coming out of your intercooler. That means for a given heat load, you must either use colder water, or increase water flow. Since I haven't seen a thermostat on a body of water yet, and our boating season is short enough as it is, that just leaves increasing water flow as a viable option.

Before anyone says, "Just add a bigger intercooler", that can actually speed up fouling. A bigger or more effecient intercooler is transferring more heat to the water - increasing water temp, and thereby the rate at which scaling ocurrs. It wont show up right away on a bigger intercooler because it starts off clean, and there is naturally more surface to foul before it becomes an issue, but it will happen.

By adding a dedicated intercooler line, you can drastically reduce the amount of heating action occurring in the water. It's simple, takes maybe two hours plus curing time for the through hull connection. It costs about a hundred bucks. If you feel frisky, you can even add a hi-flow strainer for another 40 dollars.

The benefits are not just limited to preventing scaling. The line helps compensate for high air and water temperatures which are factors beyond your control.

By adding the line, not only do you drastically reduce or completely eliminate the scaling problem, you are minimizing the temperature of your charge air, which means you maximize available power, minimize fuel consumption, and ensure the boat meets the performance levels you were promised by the dealer.
 

kyle

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So maybe I should have done more homework and not bought the supercharged version? Or am I just reading too much into this?
 

First Yamaha

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My next boat will have 2 engines instead of 1 supercharged.
 

druppert

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So maybe I should have done more homework and not bought the supercharged version? Or am I just reading too much into this?
Check the temperature of your 2 supercharger streams. You'll notice they're barely warmer than the water you're boating in. If you have an infrared temperature gun you'll notice that the inter cooler is about 110* at operating temp. If you don't have anninfared gun put your hand on it. It's not untouchable. I'd bet the rest of this year's paychecks you don't have "power robbing scale" after 9 hrs. I think you're fine. It's natural for everyone to think something is wrong with their new toy as soon as there's a gap between expectation & reality. Take it out alone & see if you're able to turn 7600 rpm. If so, there's nothing wrong. If not, have it serviced. In the meantime enjoy your awesome rig with as many people as you can fit onboard.
 

kyle

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That sounds better. Makes me feel better. I'm a total newby and don't understand much about any of this. Thanks for the response
 

druppert

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Im not saying the things described aren't possible and midnight explained the computer intervention process consistent with the way I've understood it but I think he/she is speaking in cases of extreme. I have ~70 hrs on mine & I routinely run up & down the Hillsborough River in Tampa, which, to anyone familiar, is one of the dirtiest bodies of water there is. I have had no ill affects and I have not read of anyone having flow issues from scale in the SC after 8 hrs, though I have not searched. Yamaha has a great track record with these engines and the SVHO package seems to cure the issues raised by the SHO in a boat platform. SC are not new to the marine environment and when people have had heat-related performance issues they all solve it by replacing the intercooler with the one from the SVHO. Again, I'm no expert, just someone who was equally paranoid 6 months ago when I got mine!
 

Midnight2V

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Although my boat is an SHO, by the time it had 15 hours on it, I couldn't get past 33mph or 6900 rpm. I was able to hit 48 exactly once - right after break in for about 5 minutes. It steadily got lower after that. Nearly everyone I have chatted with has said something similar in that it started almost immediately.

Druppert, I understand what you are saying about dirty water, but its not typically dirt that causes scaling, its calcium. Now in some parts of the country there is plenty of calcium trapped in the dirt, but that isn't always the case. There are also plenty of places where the calcium content in the water is very high, yet the water is fairly clear.

And to be clear about my previous comments, the scale doesn't cause a flow problem, it inhibits heat transfer by creating a poorly conducting thermal barrier between the metal and the water. The layer can be extremely thin and still cause significant loss of performance.

The easiest way to see what is going on is to connect a diagnostic device and look at air temperature after the intercooler. Higher air temp is bad.

If this was simply a problem of the intercooler or engine getting too hot, a couple minutes of idling with cooling water flowing and no boost should, at least temporarily, correct the issue...except it doesn't in the sho. It seems very similar to what Kyle is describing.

Perhaps the conditions you find yourself in are due to scaling, perhaps not. Whatever the solution might be, I hope you find it and can correct it as soon as possible, and then share it with us

Good Luck.
 

druppert

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Ah, I misunderstood your suggestion. It looks like you upgraded your IC the type 14 (SVHO?). Did that resolve your cooling issue? Everything I've read about the SHO setup indicates that they all suffer from heat soak caused by insufficient IC cooling capacity in general. Maybe what you're describing is what's actually happening to them. @kyle if you search the forum for 'heat soak' you can learn more about this issue but I haven't heard of any such complaints on the SVHO setup as the IC is substantially larger.

Regarding the adequacy of the motor in a boat setup, everything I've read in the forum and forums related to skis suggests that this power plant holds A LOT back. Someone here has a diagnostics report that shows the throttle position limited to <70% which makes sense since an ECM program with no mods can take your rpm over 8000 and with some engine mods they push the skis over 8300 rpm. Most figure the engine is limited to 7,600 on the boats to handle the prolonged running at high rpm which is more likely than on skis.

@kyle if you have any doubts about your purchase or the SVHO platform in general keep reading. This is a well documented engine (less so on the boats because 2017 is the 1st time they've put it in a boat) but it's essentially the same as the SHO but with a larger IC, jet pump, and upgraded supercharger impeller. It's a great motor with a great track record. Are these boats perfect? No, but you can read all about the flaws of Yamaha, very few are related to the powertrain. The more concerning issue is water leaks and sloppy assembly in certain (many) cases. The guys & gals here have done a phenomenal job of explaining how to address all of these common problems & if you have time and/or interest in tinkering with your boat they're all easy to resolve yourself.

A final thought to consider is water conditions. If the water is significantly rougher than your 1st time out that could dramatically impact performance from what I've read. I don't usually go out in really choppy water because neither my gf or myself enjoy getting bounced around and the 19' boats don't handle the rough stuff all that well.

Sorry for the long post but i know the doubt you can feel about a large, non-essential purchase & would hate for you to not enjoy it because you think you've developed a serious problem immediately. Let us all know when/if you find resolution to the issue, if there even is one. We all learn from one another here.
 

kyle

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Well the good thing is it's still faster than I need and we absolutely love it. There very well may be no issue at all. I think part of it is I'm just so new to it all I dont really know what to expect with certain conditions and loadings. We love the boat and look forward to many years of use.
 
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