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Predictions on 2020 models

PaulyB

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We ran around all week on Douglass Lake, roughly the same places and the same speeds. Two adults, two kids on each boat. He used just under 60gal of fuel in a 23.5ft Berkshire with a "sport toon" in the center (not a full toon in there). I went through about 45gal of fuel. He likes to "cruise" at WOT, which is about 34-35mph and like 6,500rpm on his Mercury 150hp outboard. My little AR190 with a single 1.8 is cranking along at about 6,600rpm at that speed.....I suspect he needs to raise the motor higher on the transom, but hasn't messed with it much.

~650miles towing. He got 6.5mpg I got 13mpg. My truck is a '15 GM 5.3L, his is a '19 GM 5.3L. Same rear end gears. He has the new 10spd I have the old 6spd. He's towing an uncovered pontoon, I'm towing a covered runabout. Aerodynamics aren't his friend towing.
You are comparing a 19 ft boat to a 23.5 ft boat for fuel efficiency? I'm sure your boat is more fuel efficient than a 24 ft Yamaha as well.
 

biffdotorg

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One could argue that they aren't as good at transfering HP to the water as a Jet, but it's a stretch.
Ya, that would be a stretch as most realize that a jet pump is very inefficient compared to a similar HP I/O or Outboard. Best comparison would be our 20Ft SeaDoo with 240 EFI, compared to my buddies 18ft Four Winns with 190hp I/O. The SeaDoo was faster, and jumped out of the hole quicker. But ate nearly twice as much fuel. And the low end torque out of the hole was a big win for the I/O

On a similar note, drop 240hp or the 360hp we have in our boats into an Outboard and you have a way more fuel efficient powertrain and better power in the water. Speed may even be similar, but at a much higher cost in fuel use. It's an opinion, but based on use.
 

2kwik4u

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You are comparing a 19 ft boat to a 23.5 ft boat for fuel efficiency? I'm sure your boat is more fuel efficient than a 24 ft Yamaha as well.
Actually it's not really that much better. The big difference between a 19ft Yamaha and a 24ft Yamaha is a small contact patch of water. The difference between the tri-toon and the 19ft yamaha is a significant hull design difference. Yamaha is a planing hull, while the tri-toon is a displacement hull, or maybe a "semi-planing" hull if you want to stretch the definition a little.

And that reply you quote was to answer/backup to a previous comment about a friends tri-toon using more fuel than my Yamaha, which @biffdotorg had mentioned was lopsided the wrong direction. In his experience the 'toon was more fuel efficient than the jet. Of course comparing the two to each other is a bit lopsided in general.

The real thing that has be settled upon is, What is the measure of efficiency? Miles per gallon? HP to speed? Engine efficiency at it's base is the difference between fuel input and heat output. We typically look at the first two mpg and speed/hp.

Looking at speed/hp, then that 'toon above is getting 35mph/150hp or .233mph/hp, and my Yamaha is actually exactly the same at .233mph/hp (42mph/180hp). SO which would you call more effecient there? On the same idea, our mpg is significantly different, as we cruised around to the same places and used considerably different amounts of fuel.

What the jet looses in pumping/traction with the water, it gains back in lack of drive line resistance (both internally and externally). They aren't so wildly ineffecient that there is a pinpointable gap between comparably equipped boats. a 320hp 24ft bowrider will use similar amount of fuel regardless of what propulsion system is uses.
 

swatski

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Yamaha jets are Hamilton style pumps and way more efficient than the “traditional” old Berkeley/American Turbine jet boats, when properly tuned and maintained.

A traditional 24ft bowrider with I/O or twin 150hp o/b gets about 2mpg at cruising speeds of 25-30 mph.

That is in the same range I get when cruising.
101000

Granted my pumps are well tuned and ported and I usually run premium fuel and an ECU tune that could be leaner than factory. But still.

 

2kwik4u

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Hamilton style pumps
Google this......it's not what you think :D :D...no real contribution to the thread, just thought it was funny.

Been doing some reading on slip ratios. Mostly to compare how a prop in water differs from an impeller in a axial flow centrifugal pump. Not a ton of data out there really. At least not that I can easily find. Curious if anyone has any good links for reading.

I'm also somewhat interested in finding some CFD data on non-compressible fluid nozzle design. If anyone has info on that I'll read that too.
 

Betik

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So I know nothing about tuning but the swatmobile is quite.

I recall in the Chicago to STL run when I was a distance all I could hear was the water gashing out of the pumps. Then Nick showed up and all I could hear was his engines .....
 

ptwb

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I'm not aware of any twin 150hp OB 24' bowriders. There are plenty of single 250hp outboard 24' bowriders and they are more efficient than Yamaha at all speeds except WOT. The four winns HD 240 even weighs 1000lbs more and is still more efficient (3.2mpg at 30mph) than the Yamaha except at WOT where it falls a little behind.

Let's not even waste our time comparing the 27' yamaha jetboat. With the SVHO engines, it sucks twice the gas while the 27' versions of the four winns, searay, etc just fall slightly. A SeaRay SDX 270 OB with a single 300hp OB still gets 2.9mpg at 27mph. The single outboard powered 27'ers still get around the same top speed if not even slightly more, and that's with 300hp test engines and some of those bowriders are rated upto a 350hp.

All the single outboard bowriders I've looked at are more fuel efficient at no wake speeds, some hitting 4 to 5+ mpg at speeds around 5-6mph where the Yamaha only gets 3mpg.

The jets (24' not the 27'er) are only better at WOT by a little.


Now to trying to get this thread back on track, what I would like to see for 2020 is

1) Electronic throttle is standard on all models. The AR240 should include electronic throttle but no Connext.
2) Some kind of jet drive tech breakthrough that makes seaweed such a non-issue that you no longer need cleanout ports and you can post an honest video of a new yamaha jetboat driving through a football field sized patch of seaweed in the florida keys. Also something to improve fuel efficiency AND lower sound levels.
3) A return to the basics of jetboating, boats like what made you so popular in the 1st place. Please please please NO more gimmicks and gadgets or things like paddle shifters, power captains chairs with memory seating, power windows, integrated seat massagers, built in hot tub, or connext integrated remote control drone submarine.
4) No more space wasting captains chairs. They are so yesterday. I want to see something like the flip seats on the SeaRay SDXs.
5) Towers that lower to just below the windshield. The boats need to fit through an 8' garage door. Even better, some kind of top/tower that lowers like a lid on a can right down flush to the windshield profile line or maybe just over and around it. I trailer and it would be nice to just close the center walkway door, lower the tower, and the cockpit area is sealed up nice and tight and nothing will blow away and I don't need to clean up till I get home.
 

swatski

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I'm not aware of any twin 150hp OB 24' bowriders.
How many pictures or URLs for those boats would you like me to give you?
101035
I meant CC actually, so my mistake.

Where do you get all those fuel economy numbers? Reading magazines? Or boattest.com? lol. Is that why you say "There are plenty of single 250hp outboard 24' bowriders and they are more efficient than Yamaha at all speeds except WOT"? Because it does not make a whole lot sense... It should be the other way around, actually, outboards can be matched to small hulls such that they operate very efficiently at WOT.

--
 

ptwb

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Where do you get all those fuel economy numbers? Reading magazines? Or boattest.com? lol. Is that why you say "There are plenty of single 250hp outboard 24' bowriders and they are more efficient than Yamaha at all speeds except WOT"? Because it does not make a whole lot sense... It should be the other way around, actually, outboards can be matched to small hulls such that they operate very efficiently at WOT.
Yes, I get the #s from whatever source I can find online, and they basically get it from the engines gauges just like you yourself did and posted a screenshot of. If you don't like that, where do you suggest we get the #s from so we can have an honest discussion then? I've met some of these boat reviewers at a manufacturers annual press event and they have no reason to change or fudge the numbers.

Where did you get your 2mpg number for center consoles? My experience is they are in the 2.5 - 3mpg range and that matches numbers I found online for similar boats to my friends and his is a heavier 26'er!

I've been thinking about upgrading and have been researching the heck out of 24'-29' OB bowriders. In addition to the Four Winns HD240 I mentioned earlier, the 24' Monterey M-45 with a single 250 verado also gets similar numbers hitting 3mpg @ 32mph. The searay SDX 250, a 25'er and almost 1000lbs heavier than the other 2, still manages 2.8mpg with a WOT of 47mph with a 300hp OB.

It just gets worse as the boats get bigger and heavier. The 27 OBers still hold their own against Yamaha 24' numbers but that new Yamaha 275, WOW, only got 1.6mpg at 33.7mph.

It can be hard trying to honestly compare apples to apples. All it takes is a huge top to affect the numbers.

I can't explain the WOT thing, and it's not always the case. The heavier 27' monterey M-65 with a 300hp OB gets the same WOT 2.1 mpg but @ 48mph vs the shorter and lighter Yamaha's 24'ers 50mph.




WTH are you talking about? The 275s? There is like 150 of those produced, in all...
IMO, Yamaha hasn't done anything really meaningful in over 10yrs. Every year they announce something, it's a letdown and feels like a gimmick. Rudders, keels, touchscreens, different reverse nozzle, more electronics, etc. Lately it seems like it's a lot of wakesurfing stuff. Seriously, just go get a real wakesurf boat.



No, thank you.
Besides, that has already been solved anyway. Just buy the @Ridesteady system for 1k, plug-and-play, done. It's fly-by-wire and auto twin engine sync, couples the convenience of E-throttles with reliability of cable link and instant FEEDBACK - the only way to instantly know your reverse bucket is snagged
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I want to be able to just grab the throttles and pick absolutely any rpm/speed I want and not have to fiddle with the throttles, or no wake mode switches or any other switches or have to remember that I needed to turn something or or switch some mode, etc. Ridesteady is not the same thing, if anything, it's even more and I don't need that stuff. I prefer that system come from the manufacturer and be integrated by them instead of aftermarket.
 

swatski

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We'll just have to agree to disagree. I want to be able to just grab the throttles and pick absolutely any rpm/speed I want and not have to fiddle with the throttles
Well that's just not quite possible with Yamaha throttles as designed, as the throttle binnacles operate the reverse buckets as well. At least they are split/independent. The E-throttles are smooth but they can leave you guessing (and possibly react too late) if reverse buckets jam, whereas the current AR240 / non-E system uses a combination of cable (mechanical) and APS (electronic) - giving instant feedback in case of any reverse issues.
With no reverse gear in these boats if those reverse buckets jam and you don't know it (like in E-models), it can be trouble. In my AR240, if my reverse bucket(s) jam I know it immediately as I can't move the binnacles back - I actually like it, a lot. There is no guessing what's going on, and I can react accordingly.

RideSteady is brilliant as it just fills the gap and "splices" seamlessly into the APS modules, you literally just turn it on and then operate any RPM or speed changes by turning the knob. It's far more convenient and accurate than any boat throttle lever I handled in any boat.

--
 

Stevenpigsooie

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I’ll second the ridesteady (RS) comment. Prior to this season I was seriously considering trading my ar240 in for a dedicated wakeboat. However, once we added RS and through the help of this forum got our wave dialed in, my satisfaction in this boat is very high now. RS is great for cruising because it syncs the engines and it really shines when surfing because even .2-.3 makes a huge difference in the wave characteristics. My wife didn’t enjoy driving while I surfed when she had to constantly adjust the throttles but it’s all good now.

I agree that with the money being spent on these boats that e-throttles and a real speed control should be included. I’m thankful for the throttle sync and RS that have given me the best of both.
 
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ccwakerider

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Any rumors out there on a larger Yamaha FSH CC will be released? Maybe a 23’?
 

2kwik4u

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Any rumors out there on a larger Yamaha FSH CC will be released? Maybe a 23’?
I read this "CC" as Cuddy Cabin for some reason. Had a few moments of WTF is this guy thinking.......It's clearly Center Console.....I'm dumb, or need more coffee :D

If Yamaha made a competitor to the Scarab 255 Open ID, I would be first in line standing there screaming to take my money. Take the 242 hull, drop a decent center console in there. Keep the aft lounging area, and give me some decent storage and I'm sold. The Yamaha engines are proven, and the cleanout ports are still under patent for a few years, so they could easily grab that market back I think.
 
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Ziess21

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The 24' CC seems like a no brainer and has been discussed among dealers and reps for some time, I'm not sure what the hold up is on bringing it to market. I heard that someone had seen one in the wild earlier this spring on their test lake but that's about it. Hopefully we'll get to see one in a week and a half!
 

ccwakerider

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I read this "CC" as Cuddy Cabin for some reason. Had a few moments of WTF is this guy thinking.......It's clearly Center Console.....I'm dumb, or need more coffee :D

If Yamaha made a competitor to the Scarab 255 Open ID, I would be first in line standing there screaming to take my money. Take the 242 hull, drop a decent center console in there. Keep the aft lounging area, and give me some decent storage and I'm sold. The Yamaha engines are proven, and the cleanout ports are still under patent for a few years, so they could easily grab that market back I think.
I am with you! I like the FSH 210 quite a bit, but the larger size of a 23/24 is what is needed in the market I believe
 

ccwakerider

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The 24' CC seems like a no brainer and has been discussed among dealers and reps for some time, I'm not sure what the hold up is on bringing it to market. I heard that someone had seen one in the wild earlier this spring on their test lake but that's about it. Hopefully we'll get to see one in a week and a half!
Very interesting........ I assume Yamaha keeps their new models under tight lips before the dealer meeting. I hope that rumor is true
 

SCP1

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Anyone know the date of the dealer meeting?
 
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OakleyAK

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As someone that is interested in the AR195, I have no expectations of anything to happen to the 19'ers other than hopefully a better color scheme. If no new colors come out, probably gonna try and pick up a left over 2019.
 

Ziess21

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Dealer meeting is next week, new models reveal Wednesday night.
 
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