Results of latest gmtech mods- YAY!!!

[gmtech16450yz]

That’s pretty funny actually, as I do blood testing for a living (so I can tell - you are right about that!)

(I don’t do broken bones, but I’m sure you right about that, too)

I wear many hats, but mainly occupied with testing and clinical consults in molecular genetics of blood cancers, lately, as I’m board certified by ABMGG and ACMG.

--

So you totally understand the value of SEEING problems in the blood instead of GUESSING at what the blood might look like. I'm assuming you do that by using "logging" equipment like microscopes and analyzers of some sort. So how effective or safe is it trying to treat a disease without before or after looking at the data from the exact blood from the person? A canned tune would be like giving someone chemo treatment if they showed outward signs of having cancer. Yikes. You might cure a bunch of people if you're good at guessing, but you might kill a few in the process too.

 

[swatski]

So you totally understand the value of SEEING problems in the blood instead of GUESSING at what the blood might look like. I'm assuming you do that by using "logging" equipment like microscopes and analyzers of some sort. So how effective or safe is it trying to treat a disease without before or after looking at the data from the exact blood from the person? A canned tune would be like giving someone chemo treatment if they showed outward signs of having cancer. Yikes. You might cure a bunch of people if you're good at guessing, but you might kill a few in the process too.

You would be surprised...
But yes, you are right! (we do strive to practice personalized/precision medicine, evidence-based)

You are killing me though, LOL. I have a boat to escape from work!!!

--

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Great post! I think I totally get it, but these engines are not individually tuned from factory either. And I believe there is a good consensus as to what the safe ranges are in those specific Yamaha programs/maps.

Some of the adjustments they make are obvious, like tuning for premium 93 octane (factory tunes for regular 87).
Some of it maybe less obvious to me, but simple for those guys - like re-mapping the APS positions in throttle response - which happens to be my major gripe with the system. For example, I get a much nicer range of motion and less/no "dead zones" in the throttle path - with their adjustments, again - based in part on my "feedback".

I don't think they tend to walk too close to the rugged edge, but who knows? If they did, though, we would certainly hear about it. It is a small community.

BTW - there is no gain of speed (or RPM) at WOT - as that is deemed to be a safe max from factory already as I understand it.
(Well, unless one wants to repitch the impellers to spin at higher max RPM - at WOT - but that in turn poses new challenges with hole shot cavitation. )

--

I'd say all of what you said is reasonable. You get it, it's all good.

Yeah, they can make changes within what they believe is a safe range and you should be ok. As far as the OEM not doing "individual" tunes, the difference there is they have safeguards in place to compensate for the same boat with the same tune being used in different situations, elevations or on different grades of fuel. "Tuners" like to disable a lot of those safeguards when they're messing with stuff. That's less likely in the marine situations here, but still possible. And actually in the automotive world, there are hundreds if not thousands of different calibrations for cars with seemingly similar engines. I'm sure Yamaha isn't making a whole bunch of different ECM calibrations, but I can guaranty that my ECM has different values than yours. I would guess that there's a few dozen different OEM ECM calibrations for the late model 1.8's in the boats, but that's a guess.

And of course the OEM is going to make engine calibrations that are "safe" enough to work without causing problems in a whole bunch of different situations and applications. Push those calibrations closer to the edge and you just reduced the amount of variables that calibration can account for safely.

 

[swatski]

I'm sure Yamaha isn't making a whole bunch of different ECM calibrations, but I can guaranty that my ECM has different values than yours. I would guess that there's a few dozen different OEM ECM calibrations for the late model 1.8's in the boats, but that's a guess.

Well... yes and no. Mostly "no", actually.

There are only two 1.8 ECUs in newer boats (2013?-2017):

1. non-CARB
   
2. CARB

I kid you not! That is it. (jet skis are a totally different story, they have a different ECU flavor for every model and hull color, hehe)
But boats - same exact ECU! (in two flavors - CARB/non-CARB)

So- my twin 1.8 AR240 has the same ECU they put in a 190 FSH. And a SX190. And an AR190. And a 212, 212X... and so on.

Disclaimer - I have not looked into this in a while, but I'm positive I'm quite accurate here. The 2018s are different - all new ECUs - smaller w/ two plugs only. The E-models are a mystery, but that is a different story yet.

So, basically that is in part why I started looking into it and been interested in a reflash. The above models have similar throttle levers, but come on... Same exact ECU? There is simply no way the same program will work the best in a 190 FSH AND a surf/ski-moded AR240.

--

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Well... yes and no. Mostly "no", actually.

There are only two 1.8 ECUs in newer boats (2013?-2017):

1. non-CARB
   
2. CARB

I kid you not! That is it. (jet skis are a totally different story, they have a different ECU flavor for every model and hull color, hehe)
But boats - same exact ECU! (in two flavors - CARB/non-CARB)

So- my twin 1.8 AR240 has the same ECU they put in a 190 FSH. And a SX190. And an AR190. And a 212, 212X... and so on.

Disclaimer - I have not looked into this in a while, but I'm positive I'm quite accurate here. The 2018s are different - all new ECUs - smaller w/ two plugs only. The E-models are a mystery, but that is a different story yet.

So, basically that is in part why I started looking into it and been interested in a reflash. The above models have similar throttle levers, but come on... Same exact ECU? There is simply no way the same program will work the best in a 190 FSH AND a surf/ski-moded AR240.

--

Interesting. This is something you can enlighten me on, but I think more research is needed. Jesus should be able to tell you if the CALIBRATIONS are the same in all of those ECM's. You can have an ECM (ECU, whatever you want to call it) that has the same physical part number, but has hundreds of different calibrations available. (Again, in the automotive world, since that's where I'm from and I'm still getting up to speed on this silly marine stuff.)

ECM's have firmware that basically sets what the inputs and outputs go to. Like it might physically have the pin connectors for a post cat o2 sensor, but the firmware determines if those inputs are used or not. Then there's the software calibrations. Those determine how the inputs are read and what outputs to produce for a given input. So a part number for a particular ECM may or may not have the same firmware and software after it's programmed for the particular application. THAT'S one question I don't know the answer to, when a Yamaha tech replaces an ECM, does he have to reflash it to the particular model and VIN he's putting it in? I'm talking about late model applications, I can totally see that older applications had one "works ok on everything" calibration or ECM part number. The '17's and '18's are getting a little more complicated on the engine management side of things.

Here's another twist... There are hundreds or actually THOUSANDS of calibration tables in modern automotive ECM's. The aftermarket tuning software programs only have access to a portion of those. On a particular Bosch ECM, there are a few thousand tables, charts and selection menus. We only have access to read and manipulate a couple hundred of those tables. On these Yamaha ECM's I'm guessing they might only have a hundred or so tables. Out of those, the software that's available might only be able to read and edit a dozen or so. (I'm guessing because I didn't pay the $2300 to find out! lol.) The reason I mention this is if somebody in the aftermarket looks at the calibrations from several ECM's and says they're all the same, they most likely aren't seeing the whole picture. One way to determine if the calibrations themselves are the same for different ECM's with the same part number is to look at the checksums or calibration ID numbers. The checksums are basically a value that is determined by all of the values in all of the ECM's tables. Change a single value in one cell in one table and the checksums will be different. So are the checksums the same in all CARB ECM's for 1.8l Yamaha's made from '13 to '17? I have no idea.

There's a lot to this stuff. I'll admit I'm NOT up to speed on it because there's just so little information available on tuning these boats. Which is why I think what makes the most sense if serious modding is to be done is to just ditch the entire Yamaha ECM and go to a Motec or Delphi system. That way there's no guessing and a CR@PLOAD of support. Just look at the HPTuners forum and see how much support there is! Or look at the Motec stuff, there's gobs of support in the racing community for that platform. Unfortunately, there's just pretty much nothing for this Yamaha stuff as far as hardware, software and experienced professional tuners out there. (Sorry but a couple guys playing with jet ski's with software that's super primitive doesn't count in my book.)

 

[swatski]

THAT'S one question I don't know the answer to, when a Yamaha tech replaces an ECM, does he have to reflash it to the particular model and VIN he's putting it in?

With a part number, an ECU purchased from one of the parts outfits - comes pre-programmed, a direct replacement. A new/replacement ECU can cause some issues in Connext boats w/engine hours, etc. The dealers do not seem very helpful in trouble shooting those issues.

As far as aftermarket pre-loaded/canned tunes/reflashes, there are two popular options:

1. One can send an ECU to have it reflashed/reprogrammed by R&D, RIVA, Vtech, or Dean's team. Historically, for the 1.8 N/A engines the R&D reflashes were the most popular.
   
2. Vtech/RIVA changed that in the last 2-3 years with the Maptuner 1 and Maptuner X - which a customer can use to reflash an ECU and/or return it to the backup/factory file/programming. Works excellent, the Maptuner X is actually pretty fast, too.

There are no issues with engine hours or Connext w/RIVA/Vtech reflashes. Importantly, all of the factory functions including "no wake" and "cruise assist" are completely preserved. Also no issues with aftermarket GPS-cruise modules such as Perfect Pass or RideSteady.

I believe TR-1s are similar, but those are very new in boats. I don't know of anyone reflashing MR-1HOs.

Sorry but a couple guys playing with jet ski's with software that's super primitive doesn't count in my book.

I don't know if that's what I would say. These guys are major players in this (niche) field, with excellent track record. They are very professional. I can not comment on the level of their sophistication, but I think it is extremely high.
Few people have access to Yamaha ECU programming, and it is a small market compared to cars and trucks. And of course, like everything else marine - there is a boat tax, no doubt about it!

I'm not sure how would those reflashes differ from, say, buying a chip or a tune for a car ECU.

The Maptuner X is very convenient with a menu of tunes that fit various situations when on the water. With encouragement, the RIVA team can probably develop even more tunes for the 1.8 N/As that would suit different boats, fuels, and boating scenarios.
(and make the darned throttle curves smoother!)
I think it is wonderful.

--

 

[gmtech16450yz]

I think it is wonderful.

--

Then all is good!

 

[swatski]

Then all is good!

I hope so! Well, at any rate I'll keep this updated.

Back on the original topic:
This weekend, if all goes well, I'll be doing the GMTECH intake grates mod!

If it works well and gets rid of my newly found cavitation, I may be tempted to test some impeller repitches and nozzle re-boring - to take advantage of the higher rev limiter.
Maybe dial in two set-ups - and keep one for cruising (and high speed), and one for water sports.


And one more thing - in the E-series, the Maptuner would be a cure for the reverse limiter, I think. That would be high on my list if I had an E boat.

--

 

[FloJet]

I hope so! Well, at any rate I'll keep this updated.

Back on the original topic:
This weekend, if all goes well, I'll be doing the GMTECH intake grates mod!

If it works well and gets rid of my newly found cavitation, I may be tempted to test some impeller repitches and nozzle re-boring - to take advantage of the higher rev limiter.
Maybe dial in two set-ups - and keep one for cruising (and high speed), and one for water sports.


And one more thing - in the E-series, the Maptuner would be a cure for the reverse limiter, I think. That would be high on my list if I had an E boat.

--

Now that's what I'm talking about. Waiting for the results I'm always up for performance upgrades. I'm still in the market for a used Connext system I can have to take apart. I need to know what's going on inside there.

 

[Mainah]

Even though the board inside may be the same on the ecus do keep in mind that they may have different I/O across the different models. That is most certainly the case for CARB models and possibly the case for e series.

In regards to the eseries throttles it is likely that the reverse limit is a function of the seperate computer those connect to before sending the signal downstream to the ecu.

 

[swatski]

In regards to the eseries throttles it is likely that the reverse limit is a function of the seperate computer those connect to before sending the signal downstream to the ecu.

Huh, That’s right. I was thinking about it as a rev limiter.... except there must be an additional reverse sensor, of course.
Still - there may be a way to change or remove the limit for revving when in reverse, along the same lines they would change the straight rev limiter, maybe.
I have not been asking about it as the non- E reverse limiter is set up fine for my needs.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Even though the board inside may be the same on the ecus do keep in mind that they may have different I/O across the different models. That is most certainly the case for CARB models and possibly the case for e series.

In regards to the eseries throttles it is likely that the reverse limit is a function of the seperate computer those connect to before sending the signal downstream to the ecu.

Yeah I looked in the parts listings and there are quite a few different ECM's for the 1.8's. They do use the same part number for most of the boat models of a particular year, but there's certainly not just two ECM's (CARB and FED) over the last few years of 1.8's. They seemed to change them up every year or so, most likely with different calibrations only since the hardware I/O is mostly the same. And yes, the CARB ECM's are most definitely different since they use post cat o2's along with different software calibrations no doubt.

I think the bottom line here is although these ECM's are getting more complicated in the later model Yamaha boats, they're still VERY primitive and the knowledge and support base is severely limited. Add in the fact that Yamaha has used their own proprietary protocols for NMEA 2000 and CAN data and it makes it almost impossible to mod or even work with these systems. Basically Yamaha has used their own language so they don't want to talk to any other hardware and you can't talk to their hardware without knowing the secret language. Dumb.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Ok here you go guys, I just got a little info that will blow all of this out of the water. lol.

I just talked to the service manager at the dealer I bought my boat at. I told him I was a GM tech and am familiar with engine diagnostics and programming. I specifically asked him about scanning software/hardware and ECM replacements. He confirmed what I'd heard, that their dealer techs use a Yamaha specific interface (he wasn't positive if it was still YDS2 or something after that) to access data on these newer boats. It's not something that can be bought and used by anyone outside of dealer techs. And they're interfacing online with the Yamaha servers and software to read data and reflash ECM's. It's pretty much the same as the MDI2 and the GM TIS and SI that I use, except even GM offers subscriptions to the system and anyone with $2k or so can buy the MDI2 hardware. So like I thought, I'm screwed as far as reading data out of the CAN network on these boats unless something else comes up. He mentioned that they get boat shops bringing in Yamaha boats all the time because they can't do anything with them with the scanners they have available in the aftermarket.

Here's the fun part though... I asked him if replacement ECM's (ECU's, whatever) need to be reflashed before being used in a particular boat. HE SAID YES. He said they absolutely need to be reflashed with the proper software for the particular model boat the ECM is going to be used in. So it's "supposedly" (It's just this one guy's statement so far.) just like what I do on the automotive side. You can have the same part number ECM for many different models, but you need to reflash the new ECM with the proper software or it won't run properly. The Yamaha's might be similar to some of the Toyota ECM's, where it's not so much different software, but the VIN number needs to be flashed to the ECM or it will cause issues. Either way, if you buy a new ECM, it may or may not work right on whatever software is loaded into it when it was made. The level of "it may not work right" can be anything from barely noticeable to check engine lights and the engine simply won't run.

 

[swatski]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Do Yamaha motorcycles/ATVs etc. also run on proprietary ECU/ECM programming (similar to boats/skis)?

(Of course I'm probably wrong, but - ) I would be shocked if they (jet boats/skis) reflash every ECU with a VIN!
My understanding - based on numerous discussions on ski forums - is those ECUs they sell under a particular part number (as in parts microfiche) are loaded with the same software.
I know for a fact that's been the case w/2012 MY 1.8s (in my old 2012 MY 190) but that could have changed for the 2013+, and the 2018+ ECUs seem different all together.

So, IDK... Granted, there is no transmission and gears to consider and even the impellers are pitched very similar for each hull. A cursory look at part numbers shows a pattern (below) consistent with just CARB and non-CARB versions for all non-E 1.8s, it could explain not-optimal throttle curves in these boats (if you ask me).

2016 240
6AP-8591A-41-00

2016 240 CARB
6DE-8591A-11-00

2016 212
6AP-8591A-41-00

2016 212 CARB
6DE-8591A-11-00

2016 FSH
6AP-8591A-41-00

2016 190
6AP-8591A-41-00

2016 190 CARB
6DE-8591A-11-00

2017 190
6AP-8591A-41-00


2018 240
6AP-8591A-50-00

2018 240 CARB
6DE-8591A-11-00

 

[FloJet]

Yeah I looked in the parts listings and there are quite a few different ECM's for the 1.8's. They do use the same part number for most of the boat models of a particular year, but there's certainly not just two ECM's (CARB and FED) over the last few years of 1.8's. They seemed to change them up every year or so, most likely with different calibrations only since the hardware I/O is mostly the same. And yes, the CARB ECM's are most definitely different since they use post cat o2's along with different software calibrations no doubt.

I think the bottom line here is although these ECM's are getting more complicated in the later model Yamaha boats, they're still VERY primitive and the knowledge and support base is severely limited. Add in the fact that Yamaha has used their own proprietary protocols for NMEA 2000 and CAN data and it makes it almost impossible to mod or even work with these systems. Basically Yamaha has used their own language so they don't want to talk to any other hardware and you can't talk to their hardware without knowing the secret language. Dumb.

Why dumb? lol. I would think that's smart on their end? No copy cats or someone bettering their system from enhancing it.

 

[Sbrown]

@gmtech16450yz, as a 24 yr veteran professional wrench/machinist/fabricator/hot-rodder myself, I want to give you two thumbs up. When you first came on with your intake grate mod idea, I have to admit I thought "here we go, another internet expert who thinks he's smarter than the engineers". But I've been reading with great interest a lot of your posts, and for what it's worth (not much) I'm very impressed. I haven't found an ounce of BS in anything you've said and you've been much more eloquent than I ever could. Especially the ECM stuff. Your knowledge and understanding are praise-worthy IMHO. You made me wish they had an "oh hell yeah!" button. You are definitely a rare bird and a valuable asset to these forums. Thank you.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

@gmtech16450yz, as a 24 yr veteran professional wrench/machinist/fabricator/hot-rodder myself, I want to give you two thumbs up. When you first came on with your intake grate mod idea, I have to admit I thought "here we go, another internet expert who thinks he's smarter than the engineers". But I've been reading with great interest a lot of your posts, and for what it's worth (not much) I'm very impressed. I haven't found an ounce of BS in anything you've said and you've been much more eloquent than I ever could. Especially the ECM stuff. Your knowledge and understanding are praise-worthy IMHO. You made me wish they had an "oh hell yeah!" button. You are definitely a rare bird and a valuable asset to these forums. Thank you.

Wow. That was VERY nice, thank you!

All I can say is "I try". haha. I don't know everything, and there's plenty of stuff I really suck at, but the things I do know I try very hard to pass on and share. Knowledge is worthless if it's horded. And even if I show stuff that some people would never do because of lack of equipment or skills, I believe it gives them confidence to push themselves further on their own levels. I like that.

And that's the cool thing about the internet. Like Forest with his box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get! And for me, I end up learning just as much from guys that think they don't know anything than guys that do.

Did you watch my Sky Redline build video? If you haven't, your opinion of me might change after seeing it. lol. If you have, it would explain why I impressed you...

 

[swatski]

Wow. That was VERY nice, thank you!

All I can say is "I try". haha. I don't know everything, and there's plenty of stuff I really suck at, but the things I do know I try very hard to pass on and share. Knowledge is worthless if it's horded. And even if I show stuff that some people would never do because of lack of equipment or skills, I believe it gives them confidence to push themselves further on their own levels. I like that.

And that's the cool thing about the internet. Like Forest with his box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get! And for me, I end up learning just as much from guys that think they don't know anything than guys that do.

Did you watch my Sky Redline build video? If you haven't, your opinion of me might change after seeing it. lol. If you have, it would explain why I impressed you...

Holy cow, John! This video is an absolute killer!!!!
I watched it twice, I'm still glued. A-MAZING....
It's like watching a sculptor/artist at work, beyond reproach!
Thank you for sharing - super super cool.

--

 

[Sbrown]

@gmtech16450yz I didn't watch the video until just now. Very nice work, more along the lines of what I like to do. Just finished installing a LS2 and 4l80 into a '75 Camaro. Bought very little, fabricated most everything, including the harness, crossmembers, oil pan, exhaust manifolds and so on. I can definitely appreciate your skill level.

 

[buckbuck]

Ha, I can't even comprehend the skill level you guys have.