Results of latest gmtech mods- YAY!!!

[FloJet]

@gmtech16450yz This is so much fun reading your posts!!!!
I just found this new thread, gonna be my reading for the night!

You never considered L13 cones, did you.
I must do your intake grate mod.

I'm running new Mapturner X reflashes and having a lot of fun. RIVA's Jesus is writing and "massaging" new tunes for our N/As, we have tested 4 or 5 already.
I'm almost ready to write this up, maybe a couple more tests/outings, should be interesting for some of us.
But cool one point is - we have a tune now that will make my impellers slip in the hole shot! Not a huge amount of cavitation, but definitely is there - due to extra power/torque. Now I just need to harness that!


EDIT: @gmtech16450yz reading you post, I'm surprised you didn't index the plugs, too, LOL.

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I'm so curious about the Mapturner now. Waiting patiently.

 

[swatski]

I'm so curious about the Mapturner now. Waiting patiently.

Do not expect any breakthrough! Just a bit more power and a lot more smooth-er delivery - throttle response.

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[FloJet]

Oh I see

 

[Neutron]

As far as maptuner, i dont see the gains or improvements worth the money spent.
You have to purchase 1 maptuner and 2 licences, one for each engine. Correct?
So what was the cost? $1500.
Others than doing free or cheap mods to my boat..... it aint happenin!
I am not taking it to a drag strip or doing top speed runs so I for one will leave it be.
It does everything i ask for and makes me and the wife very happy.


Now my FZS is a different story..... thats my Supermoto for the water.lol

 

[gmtech16450yz]

The cones are more complicated than that I'm afraid. The twin Yamahas generally have no cavitation issues under normal operation conditions - zero. At least as far as well sealed pumps are concerned that do not suck air. Singles - different story. Wake surfing with a ton of ballast - also different story.

(I'm using cavitation and "ventilation" terms interchangeably here)

The L13 change a lot more than the venturi opening - also change the volume, in an adjustable fashion, and there is no question those can reduce cavitation under certain scenarios such as hard hole shots, running with a ton of ballast, or running on one engine.
Here is what those look like - in relation to the OEM cone - the size difference is not subtle:
View attachment 65629

There are no good reasons to use L13 to gain just the top speed, at least in my opinion. The fastest skis all use those, but it takes ridiculous amount of time/effort to dial/tune everything in. Great tool if one is into it though!

However, the L13 are awesome in fighting cavitation/ventilation and increasing the pump efficiency. Along boring the the venturi, steering nozzles, and pitch adjustments.

@gmtech16450yz I think in your boat, under current load conditions, I would venture to guess you would not be experiencing much cavitation with the factory setup. These boats generally do not cavitate/ventilate in turns.

In my experience, the cavitation issues become completely apparent once you push it, for example:

1. try a hard hole shot with a single engine boat, especially with an aftermarket impeller pitched for speed etc.
   
2. or a twin loaded with surf ballast

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My boat cavitated a little bone stock, but it didn't get excessive until I did my engine mods. It would slip quite a bit in hard turns and on hard launches until I did the intake grate and intake tunnel mods.

Like I said, if the Lucky 13 cones were about a quarter of the price, I might have bought them. The "boat tax" is stupid ridiculous, I'm not falling for it unless absolutely necessary. I've got both jets running at max rpms with no cavitation with the stock hardware so I'm good with that. As far as bang for the buck, I'd rather spend a couple hundred on the parts I'd need to build an adjustable pitch system. That would make more of a difference than the cones.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

As far as maptuner, i dont see the gains or improvements worth the money spent.
You have to purchase 1 maptuner and 2 licences, one for each engine. Correct?
So what was the cost? $1500.
Others than doing free or cheap mods to my boat..... it aint happenin!
I am not taking it to a drag strip or doing top speed runs so I for one will leave it be.
It does everything i ask for and makes me and the wife very happy.


Now my FZS is a different story..... thats my Supermoto for the water.lol

The price I was quoted for Maptuner X with licenses for being able to edit the calibrations on both engines was over $2k, I want to say it was like $2300 or something ridiculous like that. The regular Maptuner license is only good for loading pre-made tunes, of which there are maybe 3 total available for the boats. Buying tuning software and not being able to actually edit the calibrations isn't going to work in my situation. Again, the boat tax is silly on some of this stuff. To fully edit a couple car engines starting from scratch would cost like $500, with about a thousand times the tables and support available. It's kind of a bummer actually.

 

[swatski]

As far as bang for the buck, I'd rather spend a couple hundred on the parts I'd need to build an adjustable pitch system. That would make more of a difference than the cones.

That certainly would!!!!
Adjustable on the fly? I hope you can elaborate! This sounds new.

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[gmtech16450yz]

That certainly would!!!!
Adjustable on the fly? I hope you can elaborate! This sounds new.

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I'm gonna do it, but I just got this baby back together and it's supposed to rain so the boat is definitely on the back burner for now...

 

[gmtech16450yz]

...and yes, it would absolutely have to be adjustable pitch on the fly.

 

[swatski]

The price I was quoted for Maptuner X with licenses for being able to edit the calibrations on both engines was over $2k, I want to say it was like $2300 or something ridiculous like that. The regular Maptuner license is only good for loading pre-made tunes, of which there are maybe 3 total available for the boats. Buying tuning software and not being able to actually edit the calibrations isn't going to work in my situation. Again, the boat tax is silly on some of this stuff. To fully edit a couple car engines starting from scratch would cost like $500, with about a thousand times the tables and support available. It's kind of a bummer actually.

That is correct - the cost analysis!

However, as far as the library of canned tunes - it is rapidly expanding. They don’t post it, rather you can only see programs once you have purchased the license and synchronized your Maptuner to their server.

In my position, i would not want to be editing anything there in their maps!
It would make sense with forced induction, with lots of room to play - but tuning a very high compression N/A Yamaha 1.8 engine is best left to the pros, IMHO.

I’ve been nothing but most impressed with Jesus’s approach. He literally will adjust those maps based on your feedback. The results are good, but there is no room for breakthroughs within the limits of the system - as is.

Setting realistic goals is very important (for me) here!

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[Neutron]

For $2300 what are realistic goals?

 

[swatski]

For $2300 what are realistic goals?

Why I would not buy the tuner with the map editor!

Otherwise - it is about 1.5k which, on the scale of things, is just another “BOAT” thing...

And - way, way, less than an FZS!!!

Edit- I will elaborate on the results.
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[Neutron]

And - way, way, less than an FZS!!!

Edit- I will elaborate on the results.
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True but not the same fun factor

 

[Neutron]

Dont get me wrong i am all about modding and tweeking my toys.
I applaud all of your efforts and look forward to hear the resuts.

I am speaking from my honest opinion as far as my AR240. For how i use it it is perfect. I dont do a lot of watersports( some when we have group with us) but not enough for me to say "man i wish this thing had more (somethin').

My DRZ had only 200 miles on it and i tore the motor apart and dumped over 2 grand on it alone. Took what was a brand new $7200 bike and within the first 3 months spent $4000 more between the engine, suspension, brakes, tires, and many other doo dads.
So i know the itch you get and have to scratch it till its gone.
My 2 bikes are heavily modded and are top knotch and anyone who has ridden them agree. Now i have started on my ski, but wont be done untill mid winter. It already is a bear to ride

 

[gmtech16450yz]

I’ve been nothing but most impressed with Jesus’s approach. He literally will adjust those maps based on your feedback. The results are good, but there is no room for breakthroughs within the limits of the system - as is.


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Wojtek, I'm not trying to scare you, but I also don't want you to end up saying "If I only knew" down the road. I've seen SOOOOOOO many guys in the automotive tuning world end up saying those exact words after a "professional" tuner ended up making changes that ended up in broken parts. And everyone of those "tuners" said things like "Oh this tune is very conservative". lol. What exactly does that mean? "Conservative" to John Force is a lot different than it would be for somebodies grandmother in her Camry.

What you said about him "adjusting maps based on your feedback" really scares me. Nothing against you of course, but you, or even me, isn't an engine sensor. What you "feel" can be WAY off of what's actually happening. Especially when you add in the placebo effect, which is huge on this kind of stuff. (I've had people come in saying their engine is idling rough, I open the hood, touch some random part with a screwdriver, close the hood and they'll swear it runs WAY better. lol.) In other words, unless you're looking at (logging) fuel trims, o2 sensor outputs, knock sensors, map, fuel pressures, IAT and ECT readings and a bunch of other stuff, you have no idea what's actually happening. If he's not having you log or even look at what the engine is actually doing, he's flying blind. Ask him this, how can he adjust maps without having ANY idea of what effect they are having on the engines?

In my tuning world, anyone that makes calibration changes without looking at logs is dangerous. That's like a doctor saying you have a broken bone without doing an xray or saying you have diabetes without doing a blood test. And saying those things isn't even that bad. Injecting insulin because he "thinks" you have diabetes is dangerous. This screen shot was from a log I did today. It tells me a wealth of things about how this engine is running. None of the problems that this log shows would be something an owner or driver of the car could have told me with simply his "feedback".

Just a thought, like I said, I just want you to be informed about the risks you're taking. If you're ok with them, that's fine.

 

[swatski]

Wojtek, I'm not trying to scare you, but I also don't want you to end up saying "If I only knew" down the road. I've seen SOOOOOOO many guys in the automotive tuning world end up saying those exact words after a "professional" tuner ended up making changes that ended up in broken parts. And everyone of those "tuners" said things like "Oh this tune is very conservative". lol. What exactly does that mean? "Conservative" to John Force is a lot different than it would be for somebodies grandmother in her Camry.

What you said about him "adjusting maps based on your feedback" really scares me. Nothing against you of course, but you, or even me, isn't an engine sensor. What you "feel" can be WAY off of what's actually happening. Especially when you add in the placebo effect, which is huge on this kind of stuff. (I've had people come in saying their engine is idling rough, I open the hood, touch some random part with a screwdriver, close the hood and they'll swear it runs WAY better. lol.) In other words, unless you're looking at (logging) fuel trims, o2 sensor outputs, knock sensors, map, fuel pressures, IAT and ECT readings and a bunch of other stuff, you have no idea what's actually happening. If he's not having you log or even look at what the engine is actually doing, he's flying blind. Ask him this, how can he adjust maps without having ANY idea of what effect they are having on the engines?

In my tuning world, anyone that makes calibration changes without looking at logs is dangerous. That's like a doctor saying you have a broken bone without doing an xray or saying you have diabetes without doing a blood test. And saying those things isn't even that bad. Injecting insulin because he "thinks" you have diabetes is dangerous. This screen shot was from a log I did today. It tells me a wealth of things about how this engine is running. None of the problems that this log shows would be something an owner or driver of the car could have told me with simply his "feedback".

Just a thought, like I said, I just want you to be informed about the risks you're taking. If you're ok with them, that's fine.

View attachment 65643

I very much appreciate your advice and expansive knowledge and experience you bring to the table! I'd like to heed your advice, been around long enough to know better, LOL.

I have no experience actually tuning engines and need to make sure we are talking about the same thing here. I'm assuming that "canned tunes" (or "reflashes") with good track record can be safely applied to boat/ski engines, without the need to monitor or edit those maps by the customer, correct?


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[swatski]

I should also clarify, as far as my feedback, it is limited to the throttle control /response curve. Given the boat throttle levers/APSs have a different profile than skis they ask how do I find the throttle response - and adjust accordingly.
Well, it does go further - these guys know all the ins and outs of impeller and pump tuning and already offered to repitch my impellers to maximize the efficiency on both sides, etc., again - based on my "feedback".

For my part, I would have to say I'm not concerned about what those guys are doing. That's what they do all the time - tune 1.8 Yamaha engines (R&D, RIVA, Dean's - are the few outfits well regarded in this field).

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[gmtech16450yz]

Here's the easy answer- The "tune" or calibration is what's "requested". The logging is what's actually happening. Just because you "request" something, doesn't mean you get it. lol.

That's the problem. Here's a totally random and hypothetical situation... Say you look at the stock tune for a boat and see that certain air fuel ratios and ignition timing values are requested at a certain load and rpm. So as a tuner, you say you want to lean it out and advance the ignition timing for more power at that rpm and load. Unfortunately, at that load and rpm it was already running too lean and on the fuel being used it was on the edge of knocking. So what happens? It runs even leaner and starts knocking. You MAY be able to hear it knock, but you're not going to have any idea that it's running too lean until you burn a piston. And as far as how it "feels", engines always feel the strongest right before they blow. haha. (Only half kidding.) So if you're feeling better throttle response, is it because the mixtures and timing are optimized or is it because it's on the ragged edge? There's NO way of knowing without logging.

So what these guys are doing is to change calibration values by "guessing" what the engine needs. Sure, some are better at knowing what to change and how much, but I don't care how much experience or success you have, you're still tuning blind. I DO NOT recommend tuning blind to anyone. Actually the opposite is true, I've been a staunch advocate of constant logging in the automotive world for decades. It's the only way you can SAFELY make changes to any engine calibration. If anyone tells you they can "safely" tune an engine without seeing any data from that engine, they're dangerous. Simple as that.

If that is as clear as mud and you have more questions, fire away!

edit- I didn't answer your question about "canned" tunes. I don't like canned tunes. Never have, never will. The problem is that not only do different engines run a little differently, fuel quality is different, use and loads are different, and mods are different. So the tune you put in one engine might not be ok in another. And it obviously depends greatly on who's building those canned tunes. How many boats EXACTLY like yours have these guys built tunes for? And did they build them by tuning and logging, or by using a customer as "feedback"? Think about that, the "canned" tunes that might come from the work you and Jesus are doing on your boat were built with NO logging to show how the changes effected the actual engine operation.

I guess that's your answer right there... If Jesus ends up marketing a "canned" tune from what he comes up with on your boat without ever even laying eyes on it or seeing ANY engine data from it, would it be "safe" in my boat? Or another member's boat on here? F no.

 

[swatski]

That's like a doctor saying you have a broken bone without doing an xray or saying you have diabetes without doing a blood test. And saying those things isn't even that bad. Injecting insulin because he "thinks" you have diabetes is dangerous.

That’s pretty funny actually, as I do blood testing for a living (so I can tell - you are right about that!)

(I don’t do broken bones, but I’m sure you right about that, too)

I wear many hats, but mainly occupied with testing and clinical consults in molecular genetics of blood cancers, lately, as I’m board certified by ABMGG and ACMG.

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[swatski]

If that is as clear as mud and you have more questions, fire away!

Great post! I think I totally get it, but these engines are not individually tuned from factory either. And I believe there is a good consensus as to what the safe ranges are in those specific Yamaha programs/maps.

Some of the adjustments they make are obvious, like tuning for premium 93 octane (factory tunes for regular 87).
Some of it maybe less obvious to me, but simple for those guys - like re-mapping the APS positions in throttle response - which happens to be my major gripe with the system. For example, I get a much nicer range of motion and less/no "dead zones" in the throttle path - with their adjustments, again - based in part on my "feedback".

I don't think they tend to walk too close to the rugged edge, but who knows? If they did, though, we would certainly hear about it. It is a small community.

BTW - there is no gain of speed (or RPM) at WOT - as that is deemed to be a safe max from factory already as I understand it.
(Well, unless one wants to repitch the impellers to spin at higher max RPM - at WOT - but that in turn poses new challenges with hole shot cavitation. )

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