Student loan forgiveness....

[HangOutdoors]

Right now, if you can stock a shelf or open a box, you can find a job.

But that is the crux of it. "Can" and "Want To" are two different things. I have heard a lot of "I don't want to do that, it doesn't pay much", so they would rather do nothing than groom themselves for a career, which takes time and effort, but want all the rewards both financial and fullfillment wise right away.

 

[Farny]

But that is the crux of it. "Can" and "Want To" are two different things. I have heard a lot of "I don't want to do that, it doesn't pay much", so they would rather do nothing than groom themselves for a career, which takes time and effort, but want all the rewards both financial and fullfillment wise right away.

TRUTH! Can’t tell you how many entitled brats I have interviewed straight out of college….

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Then that sounds like somewhere to not take a job, because it's not cost effective. A higher education should easily have taught someone a basic calculation like that.

That said, I disagree with the assessment that wages are the issue. COST is the issue. Above posted paid 120k for a law degree. My college roommate paid 240k for his like 10 years ago. I'm sure the cost now is north of 400k. Colleges keep adding amenities and raising costs to the students because they can, there's no pressure from above to keep costs in line, and so cost grows while they add more and more stuff that doesn't improve educational value. Colleges are becoming more of a social force than a place of career preparation.

I maintain it would be very easy to sole this all. Have the schools be the lenders, subject to all the same rules and regulations as any other loan. If the college were to not get paid if their education did not easily pay for itself, watch how quickly prices would snap back into reality.

I don't disagree with the post, as costs most certainly are part of the issue. I think wages, however, are part of the issue as well. No matter what are the costs, if one can't make a wage to cover there costs, then there is a problem. I think society as a whole would benefit from lower costs, but I'm not sure how we get there?

Jim

 

[Farny]

Warning.
The IRS views any forgiven loan as income and taxes that income accordingly.
The IRS is not known for sympathy and will relentlessly come after "their" $.

No worries - I’ll pay back .20 cents on the dollar as income tax. Maybe I’ll use the next student loan to pay it! And I thought 2020-2021 were crazy years - jeesh!!!!

 

[HangOutdoors]

I think society as a whole would benefit from lower costs, but I'm not sure how we get there?

Totally agree. If individuals don't pay the high rent, then the rent comes down if no one is renting. If we as a society don't drive the prices up by buying items the price will adjust.

 

[BlkGS]

I don't disagree with the post, as costs most certainly are part of the issue. I think wages, however, are part of the issue as well. No matter what are the costs, if one can't make a wage to cover there costs, then there is a problem. I think society as a whole would benefit from lower costs, but I'm not sure how we get there?

Jim

Wages will be set by value, and supply of workers vs demand for their skills. Fields that have low supply and high demand do pay enough to cover their costs.

Honestly, student loans are easy compared to the rest of the issues the country faces, like climate change, foreign adversaries, and the risk of stagflation. You fix student loans with 2 steps, Step 1) Have colleges be the lenders of the loan, and do not allow them to sell this debt. 2) Put in borrowing limits that are directly tied to average graduate income. You want a degree in some fluffy shit, your limit is lower than the limit for a boring old accounting degree.

You can add a few more fun things onto it to enhance it, like capping professor pay, removing tenure, etc but those 2 alone would get the job done

 

[BlkGS]

Totally agree. If individuals don't pay the high rent, then the rent comes down if no one is renting. If we as a society don't drive the prices up by buying items the price will adjust.

The biggest thing that needs to cha ge is the perception that everyone needs to go to college. College should be for career skill building, nothing more. If your degree is an interest vs a career, it doesn't add to your career, and so is unnecessary. All it done is increase the number of people that are in educational debt.

 

[mwalker4]

I don't disagree with the post, as costs most certainly are part of the issue. I think wages, however, are part of the issue as well. No matter what are the costs, if one can't make a wage to cover there costs, then there is a problem. I think society as a whole would benefit from lower costs, but I'm not sure how we get there?

Jim

We got there because the government is giving loans to fund the college. It's a self licking ice cream cone. Government gives loans, universities can raise prices, government gives more loans. Rock climbing walls are built, new student centers are built, housing density is reduced, the universities charge more, the government gives more loans. On and on.

At some point we need to look at the ROI on a major by major basis. The difference in salaries between majors is bigger than the difference between not going to college and going to college.

 

[Bruce]

Student loans appear to have been a major contributor to the increase in tuition rates. We certainly need to move away from that system however cancelling loans already taken would be far from equitable.

This is an interesting discussion. Please keep politics out of it so that we can continue the discussion.

 

[crazy4life]

The biggest thing that needs to cha ge is the perception that everyone needs to go to college. College should be for career skill building, nothing more. If your degree is an interest vs a career, it doesn't add to your career, and so is unnecessary. All it done is increase the number of people that are in educational debt.

I just retired after 38 years in the building trades. Tough work and always out in the elements but if I gave me a very nice living to pay for my families needs.
very hard to find qualified kids to go into the building trades these days because they all want to go to college and get crap jobs that pay crap for wages. My son graduates his apprenticeship after 5 years of training in August and he has eight different welding certifications to include chromium, mig, tig and stick. He should probably be knocking down $150,000 a year with overtime at 23 years old. Do that by going to college and getting your history degree. Other 2 kids went to college and one is a Chemical Engineer with Jacob’s Engineering. Daughter is a high school Spanish teacher. I paid for everything and didn’t receive a dime from the government. I would not pay ten cents if my kids were getting some degree were you could not make a decent living after you graduate.

Please explain to me why I should contribute for your kids education.

 

[mwalker4]

In 1982, I made a deal with the government, they would pay for my college at the University of Florida and I would spend at least 4 years in the Air Force as an engineer. Interest rates were 15% and unemployment 10% and my Dad owned a Real Estate company. I needed that help. My wife made the same deal with the government at Rensselaer Polytechnic in Troy NY . We met in Undergraduate Space Training in Colorado and the rest is history. The government had needs and gave us a merit based scholarship to meet those needs.

I wish the government was more practical in how they help. Merit based post high school training should be highly subsidized. We need more trades, more tool and die setters, more programmers. We need to teach more people to fish and stop paying them to debate the merit of fishing and its impact on society.

 

[Farny]

I don't disagree with the post, as costs most certainly are part of the issue. I think wages, however, are part of the issue as well. No matter what are the costs, if one can't make a wage to cover there costs, then there is a problem. I think society as a whole would benefit from lower costs, but I'm not sure how we get there?

Jim

Increase the power of the $- Strengthen the economy, reverse inflation, lower taxes, streamline regulation…..

 

[Beachbummer]

Here's a thought on wage pressure at the low end of the scale. Your minimum wage job has to compete with on demand gig employment. Uber, Amazon delivery, etc. I've lost track but if you are between jobs and these systems provide you close to covering your expenses seetting your own schedule in comfort of your own car, you won't take the first thing coming your way. There's a reason kitchen jobs are harder to fill. The conditions and pay generally suck. Greater pressure, more options, less workers (covid did kill a LOT of people) bam, wage pressure.

 

[jlcj7]

 

[Southernerd]

Briefly stated I think the current loan forgiveness proposals a F’ing BS. Long story short i left law school $99k in debt, deferred and forbeared paying for 2 years while I looked for a real job, paid $1k a month for 8 years and refied my home to pay them off in year 9, the pay off amount was $120k. I have many classmates that are still paying, over 20 years later . We got no help whatsoever some complained but when it comes right down to it we all knew what we were getting into when we signed the promissory notes for each loan.

At the same time the bankruptcy laws changed. The only ways you can discharge student loan debt are to (1) pay them off, (2) be declared totally and permanently disabled (e.g. quadriplegic) or (3) die.

What’s the justification for foregiving student loan debt of current or new debtors when there are more jobs than job applicants?

I'm in the same boat but with greater debt. The compounding is so much that I wouldn't even consider attempting to pay it off. There's no incentive since I can can just pay minimum until I die then let them eat the balance. If the interest wasn't asinine I might attempting to pay it off. Right now it's just an additional 16% tax on my income that will be forgiven anyways when I die. Most of us that didn't come from wealthy families were fucked just because we started school at the wrong time in history and the only other option many of us had was flipping burgers.

 

[Ronnie]

Another way to get out and get up is to join the military, don’t F it up and earn/use GI Bill benefits. How would you feel if that’s the route you took only be in this situation where others get loan forgiveness without making any sacrifices?

 

[2kwik4u]

Not sure what there it to elaborate from my end. I think debt forgiveness of any kind is stupid and perpetuates irresponsible choices. I don’t work to provide for others than my family.

I disagree here.

What irresponsible choices were made? Listening to my parents, grandparents, friends, teachers, counselors, pastors, and anyone else within arms reach of me telling me that college was the right choice. At 17 I had ZERO idea what I was doing. I was $30k in debt before a year was out.

Please, tell me what irresponsible choices I should be pissed at 18yr old me for making, especially without any guidance other than "You better go to college if you want to make anything of yourself".

When I was in college the first time it was because I was told that is what I had to do. Tuition was $1,800/semester at a UofL in '98 when I started. I didn't stay, and dropped out 5 semesters in. I was on a scholarship then, and only had to pay the last semester. i went back at 31 and tuition at Purdue Statewide Technology (now polytechnic) had ballooned to $12k/semester. I took out loans to make it happen, and I've been rewarded with a six figure income the last few years. The difference is that I chose a value add degree, and I was there on purpose. I'm $50k in debt now for that degree that has only opened the door. My performance is what has gotten me anywhere.

SO, to circle back. I'm curious what irresponsible decisions I will continue to perpetuate if my student loans are forgiven. I'm open to hearing thoughts on what other persons you know about those with student loan debt, and how your opinion has been shaped by them, and what irresponsible choices they will continue to make when they are no longer saddled with either $1k+ payments (what mine are to pay off in 60mo-ish, OR what I refinanced to which is $187/mo for the next 25 years. I'm all ears to hear how clearing my balance sheet from that overhead will lead to further poor choices.

Beyond that, the premise of "I only work to support my family" argument is, IMO, incredibly self centered. We're in this shit together. All of us. Some of us are doing well, some aren't. I'm sure, we can all stand to help a few others out. Or, maybe, here's a thought. Reallocate some of that asinine levels of defense budget and use that for something that does some good.

NOW.....The economics of the decision are much harder. it's not going to help inflation because it's the equivalent of printing money. Flooding the economy with a ton of cash like that is a bad idea. I totally see the logistics and the economics making it a poor choice. But, IMO, it is NOT an ethical battle to be won, as you've framed it above.

Student loans appear to have been a major contributor to the increase in tuition rates. We certainly need to move away from that system however cancelling loans already taken would be far from equitable.

This is an interesting discussion. Please keep politics out of it so that we can continue the discussion.

Kinda the same thought here. Just because you had to pay off loans, and I'm 1/2 way through mine doesn't mean we should make everyone do it. Equitable is not always possible, and the decision should be largely made on the economics of the issue, not the ethics. Simliar thought pattern is to say we found a cure for cancer and we shouldn't use it because it's unfair to those that have survived (or not survived) cancer. Just because it was hard for me doesn't mean it has to be hard for you, or anyone else.

We have the capacity to simply say "it was harder for me before this happened, I'm glad it's easier for you now". We can do that. If we get out of our way about it.

 

[BlkGS]

@2kwik4u

Without going into a real detailed breakdown of the bad choices, short list.

At 17, you weren't ready. Neither was I, but many are.

You listened to people who had their interests in mind, not yours.

You went to expensive schools, and didn't finish the first time.

The only reasonable way to do this is a 1 time payment of 10k to every taxpayer. You paid your loans? Cool, here's 10k, good job. You didn't pay your loans off yet? Use this to pay them down. Never went to college? Here's the money anyways. We can pay for it by cutting the funding that goes to foreign aid or public universities or something like that.

 

[Bruce]

The only reasonable way to do this is a 1 time payment of 10k to every taxpayer. You paid your loans? Cool, here's 10k, good job. You didn't pay your loans off yet? Use this to pay them down. Never went to college? Here's the money anyways. We can pay for it by cutting the funding that goes to foreign aid or public universities or something like that.

While equitable how would such a gift be funded? Who would pay for it? Would it not cause more inflation?

On the other hand 1,000% inflation would help a lot to reduce debt for everyone and the county as long as wages increased at the same rate.

 

[Southernerd]

Another way to get out and get up is to join the military, don’t F it up and earn/use GI Bill benefits. How would you feel if that’s the route you took only be in this situation where others get loan forgiveness without making any sacrifices?

Yiu could run for judge...

@2kwik4u

Without going into a real detailed breakdown of the bad choices, short list.

At 17, you weren't ready. Neither was I, but many are.

You listened to people who had their interests in mind, not yours.

You went to expensive schools, and didn't finish the first time.

The only reasonable way to do this is a 1 time payment of 10k to every taxpayer. You paid your loans? Cool, here's 10k, good job. You didn't pay your loans off yet? Use this to pay them down. Never went to college? Here's the money anyways. We can pay for it by cutting the funding that goes to foreign aid or public universities or something like that.

Honestly they could reign in interest and avoid this entire discussion.