Student loan forgiveness....

[2kwik4u]

@2kwik4u

Without going into a real detailed breakdown of the bad choices, short list.

At 17, you weren't ready. Neither was I, but many are.

You listened to people who had their interests in mind, not yours.

You went to expensive schools, and didn't finish the first time.

So, I should be held in servitude level debt for the remainder of my working career for making those bad decisions? That I wasn't ready to make, and that I have no way of making a mends for?......we tell kids they aren't old enough to be allowed to drink alcohol, but they can sure as shit sign up for life crippling debt and we'll tell them it's the right thing to do. Keep going, it'll be great. What an absurd load of crap!

Even with, what I would consider, a high value highly marketable degree, I'm still going to be paying for AT LEAST twice as long as I was in school. My wife took 12 years to pay off $39k in college debt after getting a marketing degree from a smaller less expensive school.

I'm not even getting into the bullshit setup that for profit schools are. Nurses getting basic low level certifications for $100k in debt. I interview draftsman a few times a month that have degrees from ITT that are $50-60k in debt and can't draw to save their ass. For profit schools suck and IMO should flat not be allowed.

I'll concede that we shouldn't cancel student debt at large, if/when we make college a public service. Call off the whole effing profit center BS from education and allow anyone and everyone to get an education. I'll pay for my bad mistakes if we ensure I'm the last generation that has to deal with a rigged system.

And a final note/thought. It's not that people would rather NOT work, it's that it's a rigged system. Why would they work hours and hours for the cumulative effect of a McDs value meal? $7.25/he doesn't buy a meal at Wendy's. If I came to any of us here and said "I'll give you 3 cheeseburgers, and a half tank of gas for a day's work" would you do it? I wouldn't, and I don't expect anyone else to. When you can't cover the mortgage on minimum wage, where's the motivation to do effing anything? Sure I can better myself with schooling, or an internship, or any other of a number of programs, but it's awfully hard to concentrate when you can't make rent or buy groceries and get to work.

I'm not saying I've got all the answers here, I'm just saying I'm seeing more and more and more of the mentality of "it was hard for me, so it's gotta be hard for you, because we have to be fair", combine that with a whole lot of " I have to get mine and screw all these other people".....those attitudes aren't getting us anywhere. We have to rethink the paradigms that we live in and make some changes. The current situation isn't sustainable.

 

[Coult45]

In 1982, I made a deal with the government, they would pay for my college at the University of Florida and I would spend at least 4 years in the Air Force as an engineer. Interest rates were 15% and unemployment 10% and my Dad owned a Real Estate company. I needed that help. My wife made the same deal with the government at Rensselaer Polytechnic in Troy NY . We met in Undergraduate Space Training in Colorado and the rest is history. The government had needs and gave us a merit based scholarship to meet those needs.

I wish the government was more practical in how they help. Merit based post high school training should be highly subsidized. We need more trades, more tool and die setters, more programmers. We need to teach more people to fish and stop paying them to debate the merit of fishing and its impact on society.

RPI 86’ with a USMC scholarship

 

[BlkGS]

@2kwik4u

You're seeing it as a "it was hard for me and should be for others" vs a "other people chose better than me". We all make the best choices we can, sometimes they work out, other times they don't.

Also, let's be real, you're not paying servitude level debt because of school. You live in a nice house, have and had nice cars, are looking at a truck, and own a boat. You're not living in a studio with 4 other people, you know?

I agree, for profit schools are often garbage, as are typically private ones. And kids are often not ready to make big money decisions at their age. The issue is, THE EDUCATION SYSTEM SET THEM UP THAT WAY. The same system that people are saying should be free is what created kids who can't look at data and make a smart choice! That's like saying something is flammable so let's coat it in gasoline to make it wet.

 

[Neutron]

If you fail to pay for your automobile loan, it gets repossessed doesn't it. You sign the loan agreement and are aware of the consequences. If you dont pay your home mortgage same goes for that. Why not with an education you dont pay for your education, your degree should be repossessed right?

 

[BlkGS]

If you fail to pay for your automobile loan, it gets repossessed doesn't it. You sign the loan agreement and are aware of the consequences. If you dont pay your home mortgage same goes for that. Why not with an education you dont pay for your education, your degree should be repossessed right?

What's there to repossess? The earning value? That's just called making your payments, or wage garnishment.

 

[Neutron]

What's there to repossess? The earning value? That's just called making your payments, or wage garnishment.

I know there is nothing to repossess, just thinking out loud about responsibility and decisions that so many make whether they are bad or good

 

[Beachbummer]

A reasonable max on wage garnishment seems to be already in place, that seems a reasonable accommodation.

For the argument that the system is predatory/perverse, what's the suggested fix? No loans for those under 19? Only certain careers?

Many loans seem to be "too easy to get" but still they are agreed to by all parties. You can be upside down on a Bayliner for 20 years. You still got to pay, you signed the dotted line after agreeing to the loan.

 

[BlkGS]

A reasonable max on wage garnishment seems to be already in place, that seems a reasonable accommodation.

For the argument that the system is predatory/perverse, what's the suggested fix? No loans for those under 19? Only certain careers?

Many loans seem to be "too easy to get" but still they are agreed to by all parties. You can be upside down on a Bayliner for 20 years. You still got to pay, you signed the dotted line after agreeing to the loan.

I have friends that have been upside down on car loans since 18. They keep trading negative equity in on new cars. Nobody I'd talking about bailing them out...

 

[2kwik4u]

@2kwik4u

You're seeing it as a "it was hard for me and should be for others" vs a "other people chose better than me". We all make the best choices we can, sometimes they work out, other times they don't.

Also, let's be real, you're not paying servitude level debt because of school. You live in a nice house, have and had nice cars, are looking at a truck, and own a boat. You're not living in a studio with 4 other people, you know?

I agree, for profit schools are often garbage, as are typically private ones. And kids are often not ready to make big money decisions at their age. The issue is, THE EDUCATION SYSTEM SET THEM UP THAT WAY. The same system that people are saying should be free is what created kids who can't look at data and make a smart choice! That's like saying something is flammable so let's coat it in gasoline to make it wet.

Your right. Others chose better than me.....but how? Why? Is it because they're smarter than me? Is it because they have parents that set them up that way? Is it because they just lucked into it? It certainly wasn't by design that I made poor decisions. Arguably I didn't make poor decisions, I made the best decision I had with the information in front of me at the time. And you're right, I'm not living in servitude poverty due to student loans.......my point here is that others are and we have to change our outlook on this whole situation.

I would wager that the same premise that leads "someone made better choices than I did" would lead to "narcan shouldn't be allowed to treat an OD'ing addict because "they made poor choices and this is the result", without further investigation into what lead them into these poor choices, or if there might be some better method that we could use to treat the root cause here.

Both situations scream to me that, as a whole, we give far to little fucks about our fellow humans. As I've gotten older I've realized the insane level of privilege I've had, with that it leads me to think of how I can make it better for the next round of humans. Loan forgiveness, drug rehab, homeless shelters, access to healthcare,and a whole slew of other social programs have shown to improve the overall satisfaction of a country. How can these really be the discussions were having as the richest and most powerful country on the planet? Why don't we want everyone to have as much of the pie as they can? Why are we collectively a bunch of stingy little kids that don't want to share the ball?

Sure there's no precedent for this level payoff, social programs, or other benefits in this country. Doesn't mean we can't be the first generation to make it happen, we just have to collectively decide that helping one another isn't such a damn bad idea.

 

[BlkGS]

Your right. Others chose better than me.....but how? Why? Is it because they're smarter than me? Is it because they have parents that set them up that way? Is it because they just lucked into it? It certainly wasn't by design that I made poor decisions. Arguably I didn't make poor decisions, I made the best decision I had with the information in front of me at the time. And you're right, I'm not living in servitude poverty due to student loans.......my point here is that others are and we have to change our outlook on this whole situation.

I would wager that the same premise that leads "someone made better choices than I did" would lead to "narcan shouldn't be allowed to treat an OD'ing addict because "they made poor choices and this is the result", without further investigation into what lead them into these poor choices, or if there might be some better method that we could use to treat the root cause here.

Both situations scream to me that, as a whole, we give far to little fucks about our fellow humans. As I've gotten older I've realized the insane level of privilege I've had, with that it leads me to think of how I can make it better for the next round of humans. Loan forgiveness, drug rehab, homeless shelters, access to healthcare,and a whole slew of other social programs have shown to improve the overall satisfaction of a country. How can these really be the discussions were having as the richest and most powerful country on the planet? Why don't we want everyone to have as much of the pie as they can? Why are we collectively a bunch of stingy little kids that don't want to share the ball?

Sure there's no precedent for this level payoff, social programs, or other benefits in this country. Doesn't mean we can't be the first generation to make it happen, we just have to collectively decide that helping one another isn't such a damn bad idea.

Except in this case... It is a bad idea.

Theyre already going after loans for people who were legitimately scammed. But people who just chose to spend a lot of money on a fancy school, regardless of why, forgiving those loans is "such a damn bad idea".

There is no upside. All it does it hurt others who have to pay for it. It WILL increase inflation, which is already horrifngly high. It allows the real villains of this whole thing, the educational industrial complex, to walk away with no repurcussions. It opens up various quandaries such as "why should someone who couldn't afford to go to college and works in a factory pay for the person who used their college education as a vacation study program?".

There is no upside, only downsides, as such, it is a pretty damn bad idea.

Now what WOULD be a good idea, is allowing students to sue their schools for price gouging, price fixing, and lying about career earning potentials. I'd be fine with student loan reform being accomplished via students suing their schools.

 

[Chip F.]

Amazing how personal accountability doesn’t show up in the solution ? always someone else’s fault.

 

[mwalker4]

@2kwik4u

I'm not judging your decisions; I just don't think I should pay for the consequence of that decision. The system should not give loans to 18 year olds to attend expensive schools that they can't afford. The alternative is providing no frills schools to give base education. In Florida, they have many community colleges. Those colleges are relatively inexpensive and dispersed enough that a kid can attend while living at home. The courses they take have the same numbering system that the 4 year schools have so the students can transfer relatively easy to the 4 year schools. They get the same chance and degree that a kid who started at the four year school gets. That type of system is the alternative to our current system, not paying off the loans for people who chose to go to expensive private schools or get expensive advanced degrees.

 

[CaptRedbeard]

I think a lot of us are missing the broader reasons why many people think student loan debt relief is a good idea. One is to stimulate the economy by freeing people to spend more money. The other, more important aspect of it is the sentiment to simply help fellow humans. If you’re not a sociopath, you’ll agree with this sentiment. That said, it doesn’t appear many people here want the government to help them with that.

So imagine you’re looking to stimulate the economy and help out your fellow Americans and you are on board with the government playing a role in that. Student loan forgiveness is not the best way to accomplish those goals. That would only help people with student loan debt, see: largely middle class and above. A universal basic income would be a much more effective and efficient way to accomplish those goals while significantly helping very low income communities and shortening the wealth inequality gap in this country.

 

[mwalker4]

I think a lot of us are missing the broader reasons why many people think student loan debt relief is a good idea. One is to stimulate the economy by freeing people to spend more money. The other, more important aspect of it is the sentiment to simply help fellow humans. If you’re not a sociopath, you’ll agree with this sentiment. That said, it doesn’t appear many people here want the government to help them with that.

So imagine you’re looking to stimulate the economy and help out your fellow Americans and you are on board with the government playing a role in that. Student loan forgiveness is not the best way to accomplish those goals. That would only help people with student loan debt, see: largely middle class and above. A universal basic income would be a much more effective and efficient way to accomplish those goals while significantly helping very low income communities and shortening the wealth inequality gap in this country.

Wow, If you don't agree your a sociopath. Nice. Then somehow we got from paying off student loans to a universal basic income. There's a very long discussion regarding that topic, one which I'm not prepared to have on this forum. I do recommend a book called "Toxic Charity". The book covers the ways traditional charity models typically failed to alleviate poverty, and how they often harmed people in the name of service. As a result, one-way charity rarely solves the underlying issue, but results in a cycle of continual one-way giving and receiving.

 

[Bluewater272]

Handing out hundreds of thousands of dollars to children is a pretty poor idea. I'm objectively 'not an idiot', but I had very little understanding of the magnitude of student loans I agreed to, and received no counseling before or during college that would have guided me in a better direction. Luckily I had the good sense to select a field that makes the note pretty inconsequential. Even then, in retrospect, I'd have gone to a state school. A bunch of well-off adults judging kids for getting in over their head isn't a great look.

For the argument that the system is predatory/perverse, what's the suggested fix? No loans for those under 19? Only certain careers?

I think this is an interesting avenue to explore. I think there should be some level of underwriting involved in student loans besides 'do you have a pulse'? As an adult with a reasonably high income, low debt, and impeccable credit, obtaining $200K in unsecured loans would be a very difficult proposition; doing so as a high school student requires no effort.

Couple ideas-

• Approval for a loan at an expensive university should require parental commitment of funds or a parent cosigner.
• Maximum loan amount tied to some future expected wage metric. Art history loans would, on average, have a smaller maximum amount than someone majoring in software engineering.
• Increase the length of the interest-free deferral period to allow young adults the flexibility to establish themselves and their careers before repayment. Just a couple years, nothing ridiculous. Those that get their shit set quicker can have a couple years to pay down their note interest free. Those who struggle a bit won't end up with a ball around their necks before they can scape together the cash for a security deposit on their first apartment.

 

[BigN8]

Wow, If you don't agree your a sociopath. Nice. Then somehow we got from paying off student loans to a universal basic income. There's a very long discussion regarding that topic, one which I'm not prepared to have on this forum. I do recommend a book called "Toxic Charity". The book covers the ways traditional charity models typically failed to alleviate poverty, and how they often harmed people in the name of service. As a result, one-way charity rarely solves the underlying issue, but results in a cycle of continual one-way giving and receiving.

I don’t even know how to respond to this. You want free college paid for by the government??? Great. Go serve your country for a few years. You don’t have to be a rifleman on the front line, there’s all sorts of jobs out there. You want to stimulate the economy? Don’t give money away, but something. Like new roads, bridges, community centers and parks that the people will use and enjoy. Basically how they came out of the Great Depression.

 

[CaptRedbeard]

Wow, If you don't agree your a sociopath. Nice. Then somehow we got from paying off student loans to a universal basic income. There's a very long discussion regarding that topic, one which I'm not prepared to have on this forum. I do recommend a book called "Toxic Charity". The book covers the ways traditional charity models typically failed to alleviate poverty, and how they often harmed people in the name of service. As a result, one-way charity rarely solves the underlying issue, but results in a cycle of continual one-way giving and receiving.

I didn’t say “if you don’t agree with me you’re a sociopath.” Maybe I didn’t word that originally clearly but I stand by my statement. I’m sure everybody here would attempt to help somebody in distress. It’s natural human instinct. That’s all I was getting at. Nothing to do with student loan forgiveness or UBI, just basic humanity. I’m sure everybody here feels at least slightly inclined to help people around them (friends, family, neighbors, etc).

Further, maybe it didn’t come across clearly that I was just trying to analyze the reason that some people are in favor of student loan forgiveness and give an alternative that other people believe would be more effective and fair than student loan forgiveness. Just trying to continue the discussion, but I’ll leave it at that. No hard feelings meant.

 

[Rumbo]

less workers (covid did kill a LOT of people) bam

Covid did not kill a lot of people working entry level jobs. That is not why there are less workers interested in those positions. Fentanyl is killing a lot of entry level aged workers. It’s the highest cause of death for 18-45 year olds with over 100k/year. Still not the reason for a lack of interest in entry level jobs.

 

[Beachbummer]

Taking your statement as fact (because I have no reason to doubt it) and adding the 80k deaths from COVID-19 in this age range...

I hold my perhaps controversial opinion that fewer people equals less workers and more wage pressure. I would add to my argument that in addition to fentanyl deaths being high, covid deaths didn't help.

Supply and demand, how many of those dead worked and need to be back filled? Wage pressure.

I don't have a crystal ball, so I freely admit these are ramblings from an observer and not the result of scientific study. Thanks for pointing out there are higher causes of death for the age group, but that alone does not persuade me covid did not have an effect also. My impression is that more choices with greater control of the workers time and actions is what is having the greater impact

 

[BlkGS]

Regarding the "we should do this to stimulate the economy" idea.... That's the exact opposite of what the ruling elites want. The fed has literally gone on record saying they want TO SLOW the economy, and they're using higher interest rates as a way to depress the stock market to try to convince companies to stop hiring. Their belief is that this will slow wage growth and stop contributing to inflation. If you didn't switch jobs to get a major pay raise, you'd be f'ed by this move of course, because you're stuck with the lower pay AND the higher prices. So basically, if you don't change companies right now, the Fed wants you to suffer.

But all that to say, stimulating the economy is not what our overlords want right now.