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The Texas School Shooting

seanmclean

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I mean, I'm not sure where to go when you're countering facts with beliefs, some of which are refutable. Meta claims that messaging on Facebook and Instagram are encrypted. I have my own skepticism about that, but I don't have a way to independently test that. There's a commercial interest in offering protected communications, and they shirk an awful lot of liability if they can't see it (this being a prime example). They purportedly spent sixteen billion dollars buying WhatsApp solely to acquire the end to end encryption technology.

As to the refutable, they sure didn't advertise weapons to him... because those advertisements aren't allowed. Why would it even matter that they did, even if somehow it slipped through for him only? The fault for this tragedy has a single source. The shooter. Everything else we are discussing are potentially ameliorative solutions.
 

BlkGS

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I mean, I'm not sure where to go when you're countering facts with beliefs, some of which are refutable. Meta claims that messaging on Facebook and Instagram are encrypted. I have my own skepticism about that, but I don't have a way to independently test that. There's a commercial interest in offering protected communications, and they shirk an awful lot of liability if they can't see it (this being a prime example). They purportedly spent sixteen billion dollars buying WhatsApp solely to acquire the end to end encryption technology.

As to the refutable, they sure didn't advertise weapons to him... because those advertisements aren't allowed. Why would it even matter that they did, even if somehow it slipped through for him only? The fault for this tragedy has a single source. The shooter. Everything else we are discussing are potentially ameliorative solutions.
Think of it this way. It may be encrypted... But they're doing the encryption. So it's not like Meta can't read them, they're just choosing to say they can't. So while it may be encrypted during transmission or something like that, Mets absolutely knows the content of those messages since thy are encrypting and decrypting the messages for the users.

It's the equivalent of pizza hut saying they're encrypting your order. In theory, if domino's were to hack them, they wouldn't be able to see your order. But pizza hut knows your order and can decrypt it, that's how they make your pizza.
 

seanmclean

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BlkGS

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I'm aware. What I'm saying is, they know what you're sending. They might be encrypting it end to end, but Facebook literally makes money by profiling people at those ends. That's their literal business model. If they're truly blind to the content, then their profiles aren't of value to advertisers, and they're not an insanely highly valued company with extreme profits.

Just because a company says they're doing something and can't be held liable for it doesn't make it the whole truth.

Furthermore, that they're encrypting things doesn't absolve them of responsibility or liability. Their choice to use an encryption they claim they can't even see past is willful negligence in the purest form, and they should be held accountable. It's equivalent to saying "well, I didn't feed this cat that was in a box for a month, but since I never looked in the box to check on it I have no responsibility for the cats death".
 

seanmclean

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iPhones are well-known to be heavily encrypted. Is Apple responsible for not detecting every crime that will be committed using one? Not sure this is the Orwellian future you want.
 

BlkGS

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iPhones are well-known to be heavily encrypted. Is Apple responsible for not detecting every crime that will be committed using one? Not sure this is the Orwellian future you want.
There is no reason for phones to be encrypted for mundane tasks. Banking, specialized military/defense/corporate operations, sure. But there's nothing Orwellian about expecting private companies to not use encryption as an excuse for why they can monitor everything on a device, but not be held responsible when their platforms are used for evil purposes.

I think the big tech companies have gotten away with far too much already, and we need to start holding them to as high, if not a higher standard, than we hold other companies. We live in a society where we have people suing gun manufacturers (successfully might I add) because bad people used them for evil deeds. Yet we do nothing to hold companies that are radicalizing people by the very nature of their business model accountable for the damage they cause.
 

AZMark

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AZMark

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Where did you see it was due to an intoxicated driver? Please post. It fits in with the general conversation here, in this post, in the US, wherein comments have been made that the "tool" is not the (only) problem. Mental health and the underlying question of "why" is a much larger question.

Sounds like just an idiot vs an attack.

Agree on mental health but we don’t even have any ideas on that one and many of the same politicians in lobbyists pockets are as reluctant to spend on mental health as they are to restrict any access to weapons. It’s sounds good but it’s not happening, it’s become a deflection.
 

OCMD

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I am wondering when the police supervisor who made the decision to NOT go in, will be charged. I don't believe you should judge unless you have walked in those shoes. I have. That leader needs to be charged. The inaction was not only cowardly, it was criminal in my opinion. Have they not undergone the massive mandated training for responding to these incidents? Terrifying training to say the least, I remember it well, but this is what you sign up for when you are sworn in. Every day in that academy back in 1985, we would recite our department's creed which I can repeat today, 37 years later:

"I am a XXXXXXX County Police Officer, a soldier of the law. To me is entrusted the honor of the Department. I must serve honestly, faithfully, and if need be, lay down my life as others have done before me, rather than swerve from the path of duty. It is my duty to obey the law and to enforce it without any consideration of class, color, creed, or condition. It is also my duty to be of service to anyone who may be in danger or distress, and at all times conduct myself that the honor of the Department be upheld.”

I am disgusted.
 

Beachbummer

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Sorry, there is no such legal responsibility, as decided in court on several cases. Police are not accountable to help by law, upheld by court decision. Look up the guy that was stabbed in nyc subway by known criminal while police watched from safety of conductors compartment.

We need better police for sure.
 

adrianp89

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I am wondering when the police supervisor who made the decision to NOT go in, will be charged. I don't believe you should judge unless you have walked in those shoes. I have. That leader needs to be charged. The inaction was not only cowardly, it was criminal in my opinion. Have they not undergone the massive mandated training for responding to these incidents? Terrifying training to say the least, I remember it well, but this is what you sign up for when you are sworn in. Every day in that academy back in 1985, we would recite our department's creed which I can repeat today, 37 years later:

"I am a XXXXXXX County Police Officer, a soldier of the law. To me is entrusted the honor of the Department. I must serve honestly, faithfully, and if need be, lay down my life as others have done before me, rather than swerve from the path of duty. It is my duty to obey the law and to enforce it without any consideration of class, color, creed, or condition. It is also my duty to be of service to anyone who may be in danger or distress, and at all times conduct myself that the honor of the Department be upheld.”

I am disgusted.
He was just sworn in as City Council member. They might give him a trophy and a fat raise behind closed doors too.
 

Jim_in_Delaware

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I am wondering when the police supervisor who made the decision to NOT go in, will be charged. I don't believe you should judge unless you have walked in those shoes. I have. That leader needs to be charged. The inaction was not only cowardly, it was criminal in my opinion. Have they not undergone the massive mandated training for responding to these incidents? Terrifying training to say the least, I remember it well, but this is what you sign up for when you are sworn in.
Reportedly, the Uvalde school district police chief who led the law enforcement response to completed an eight-hour "Active Shooter Training Mandate" course on Dec. 17, 2021, according to Texas Commission on Law Enforcement public records. He, also, completed the same course on Aug. 20, 2020.

I think the million dollar question is, are there any victim lives that could have been saved if the shooter was confronted quicker?

Jim
 

seanmclean

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Seems that all 21 lives could have been saved if the responding officers properly identified him prior to entering the building, or if robust access controls were in place on the building as most schools have now.
 

OCMD

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One can’t answer how many lives would be saved, but you have to try.

In simplest terms, the training was on point. In the scenario, it was just another average day of day work. One squad comes in to work the 6 am to 4 pm shift. Each squad has about 10-12 officers for the district. 3 or 4 maybe more will be in court all day; radios off as that is their assigned court date. Some may be out on other calls. A supervisor might be on the scene, or maybe not. You can get help from the neighboring districts but they are in the same boat – day work with half the staff out in court on other calls and they are miles away. They will respond, but late. You never know how many officers will actually be “in service” and able to respond immediately to a call, with immediately meaning – the call goes into 911. It gets routed to a data entry person who has to enter the call into the system while at the same time putting the “alert tones” out on the radio that alerts everyone the shit is about to hit the fan with the call coming up. This takes precious minutes. By the time you hear the alert tones on the radio, the situation was at least ten minutes into it. Then, you have to navigate through traffic to get to the site. As fast as things work, it is still a delayed response to get to the scene simply because of logistics. As an aside, if there was an SRO (school resource officer) on the scene, that officer could immediately get on the air and scream for help, and the available cavalry would be coming immediately without the delay of the 911 call getting out to the street. But alas, our county and many others in the area – I can’t speak for nationwide - in its infinite wisdom who had SROs for 15 years, removed them from the schools 18 months ago because they were a racist presence in the schools, only there to lock up minorities which as intelligent people know was so far from the truth. But I digress.

In any event, the point is the training had to be realistic. You are not going to have an entire squad of officers responding to the scene immediately. You might have only two or three, maybe four if lucky initial responders. Yes, many will come later, but immediacy is the key. And this was the basis of how we were trained, at least several years ago. We did it in twos and threes, because that is basically how it would go down on the street. Realistic training.

The first 2 or 3 responding officers would have to be the immediate action team and take immediate action without waiting for back up. Hopefully, one of the responding officers carried a ballistic shield. Each squad had 2 shields on the road. Some training you had a shield, some you did not as it wasn’t available. No matter. You deal with it. If you had a shield, one carried and 2 fell behind as you entered the school – running. If no shield, you had another method to attack by running in a spread formation. Where do you run? Well, the training occurred on a Sunday when the school was empty, of course. But the school was filled with “actors.” You ran towards the threat. As you were doing this, the actors in the school – swat officers pretending to be teachers and the like – screaming he’s down there he’s down there and he’s shooting! You’d continue to run to the threat and you would hear the gun being fired and kids screaming. Terrifying training to say the least. Along the way you’d see injured bleeding bodies, hear them screaming for help, and you were told to ignore this and continue to the threat. You would see people running away from the threat, which you had to ignore as you proceeded towards the threat. When you got to the classroom there was no delay. You heard the rounds going off, they had kids screaming (teenager volunteers from the Police Explorer program – another abandoned program in the past 18 months because no one wants to be the police anymore) You forced open the door, did your safest, immediate entry possible with or without the shield, which would give the shooter or shooters a choice at who to shoot first – left entry right entry low entry – but the shooter had to pick and if you were not being shot at first you could try and take out the threat – with your heart rate a million beats a minute – also part of the training get your heart rate up to how it will be when the scene is going down - but the scattered entry, as best you can scatter in a classroom would in theory allow one of you to identify and take out the threat which had to be identified in seconds. Sim rounds were used by both the bad guy and the “actor” officers which exploded on impact with red dye so you know if your shots took effect after all the stressors were in place or if it was your time to depart this earth. All the while everyone screaming and the crap hitting the fan, exactly as it would unfold in real life. Ask me how I know.

In any event, this training was repeated so it became muscle memory. When the shit hit the fan, you will always revert to your training. And we were told – you may not get out of this alive but this is what your job is, and this could be your kid in the classroom so do your job. There is no excuse at all for those first responding officers to not go on the offensive, enter the school and attack. Maybe one life would have been saved; maybe more. It’s speculation but do your damn job.
 

sunbyrned

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One can’t answer how many lives would be saved, but you have to try.

In simplest terms, the training was on point. In the scenario, it was just another average day of day work. One squad comes in to work the 6 am to 4 pm shift. Each squad has about 10-12 officers for the district. 3 or 4 maybe more will be in court all day; radios off as that is their assigned court date. Some may be out on other calls. A supervisor might be on the scene, or maybe not. You can get help from the neighboring districts but they are in the same boat – day work with half the staff out in court on other calls and they are miles away. They will respond, but late. You never know how many officers will actually be “in service” and able to respond immediately to a call, with immediately meaning – the call goes into 911. It gets routed to a data entry person who has to enter the call into the system while at the same time putting the “alert tones” out on the radio that alerts everyone the shit is about to hit the fan with the call coming up. This takes precious minutes. By the time you hear the alert tones on the radio, the situation was at least ten minutes into it. Then, you have to navigate through traffic to get to the site. As fast as things work, it is still a delayed response to get to the scene simply because of logistics. As an aside, if there was an SRO (school resource officer) on the scene, that officer could immediately get on the air and scream for help, and the available cavalry would be coming immediately without the delay of the 911 call getting out to the street. But alas, our county and many others in the area – I can’t speak for nationwide - in its infinite wisdom who had SROs for 15 years, removed them from the schools 18 months ago because they were a racist presence in the schools, only there to lock up minorities which as intelligent people know was so far from the truth. But I digress.

In any event, the point is the training had to be realistic. You are not going to have an entire squad of officers responding to the scene immediately. You might have only two or three, maybe four if lucky initial responders. Yes, many will come later, but immediacy is the key. And this was the basis of how we were trained, at least several years ago. We did it in twos and threes, because that is basically how it would go down on the street. Realistic training.

The first 2 or 3 responding officers would have to be the immediate action team and take immediate action without waiting for back up. Hopefully, one of the responding officers carried a ballistic shield. Each squad had 2 shields on the road. Some training you had a shield, some you did not as it wasn’t available. No matter. You deal with it. If you had a shield, one carried and 2 fell behind as you entered the school – running. If no shield, you had another method to attack by running in a spread formation. Where do you run? Well, the training occurred on a Sunday when the school was empty, of course. But the school was filled with “actors.” You ran towards the threat. As you were doing this, the actors in the school – swat officers pretending to be teachers and the like – screaming he’s down there he’s down there and he’s shooting! You’d continue to run to the threat and you would hear the gun being fired and kids screaming. Terrifying training to say the least. Along the way you’d see injured bleeding bodies, hear them screaming for help, and you were told to ignore this and continue to the threat. You would see people running away from the threat, which you had to ignore as you proceeded towards the threat. When you got to the classroom there was no delay. You heard the rounds going off, they had kids screaming (teenager volunteers from the Police Explorer program – another abandoned program in the past 18 months because no one wants to be the police anymore) You forced open the door, did your safest, immediate entry possible with or without the shield, which would give the shooter or shooters a choice at who to shoot first – left entry right entry low entry – but the shooter had to pick and if you were not being shot at first you could try and take out the threat – with your heart rate a million beats a minute – also part of the training get your heart rate up to how it will be when the scene is going down - but the scattered entry, as best you can scatter in a classroom would in theory allow one of you to identify and take out the threat which had to be identified in seconds. Sim rounds were used by both the bad guy and the “actor” officers which exploded on impact with red dye so you know if your shots took effect after all the stressors were in place or if it was your time to depart this earth. All the while everyone screaming and the crap hitting the fan, exactly as it would unfold in real life. Ask me how I know.

In any event, this training was repeated so it became muscle memory. When the shit hit the fan, you will always revert to your training. And we were told – you may not get out of this alive but this is what your job is, and this could be your kid in the classroom so do your job. There is no excuse at all for those first responding officers to not go on the offensive, enter the school and attack. Maybe one life would have been saved; maybe more. It’s speculation but do your damn job.
Well, this is insightful. I was curious why these guys don’t have the bullet proof gear that they needed like the Vortex group had who actually went in the classroom. I’m sure it would be difficult to go to that door without that gear while he was shooting through it. But the training you mentioned is with or without that gear, so there you have it.
 

OCMD

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If you were dumb enough to not wear you kevlar on a daily basis, that is strike one. We were issued helmets also, so that was all you had. If you had a shield, great but once you crash the door that's really not a help. It just protects you somewhat if under fire and advancing. But when it is go time, you better go. Someone's kid depends upon you. Protective gear or not.
 

Troch1

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@OCMD, does a standard issue vest protect against the type of rounds used by the killer in this case? Thanks for your insight in this thread.
 
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