The Vaccine

[Jim_in_Delaware]

We can discuss vaccine mandates in this thread, although in the end it won't make any differences as none of us are responsible for making these decisions.

Regarding the vaccine, however, it is easy to find out who to believe. Follow the science and the scientists, not the pseudo-science and those that espouse these views. Don't let emotions cloud one's decision. Don't be afraid to question what you might hear or read. Seek multiple opinions. Personally if 9 out of 10 scientists, doctors, or other public health experts say one thing and 1 out of 10 say something else, I'm likely going to give the 9 out of 10 opinion more weight.

Given my profession, I'm trained to be skeptical, but to also follow the facts. There is no such thing as alternate facts. I'm also open minded, and encourage others to do so.

Jim

 

[Bruce]

This video really resonated with me. It is well worth watching to understand this family's experience with lack of vaccination and to consider offering prayers for them.

 

[Bruce]

@the MfM, I do not know what the solution is but it certainly starts with separating political bias from medical decisions.

We need to find a way for everyone to contribute to moving beyond this pandemic.

 

[swatski]

@the MfM, do you benefit from constantly posting negative comments?

Why not look for solutions instead?

I was wondering about that, too.

Why do this? Polio took over a decade to get a vaccine, and it was not very good, another decade to get one that was better, still not great with a TON of paralytic poliomyelitis caused by the polio vaccine; yet, it was so successful, overall, it is a cause celebre for humanity.

The covid vaccine, built on decades of prior work on viral immunogenetics and delivery methods were developed, tested and given emergency use authorization in under one year, full authorization less than year later (?) or so.

--

 

[Acard7]

@the MfM please update us with how it goes for you and your wife. I’m very interested how you guys handle it because I do believe with how infectious this virus is we will all possibly end up getting it even if you’re vaccinated.

I’m gonna open a can of worms here lol. How many other vaccines have we seen over the years that still had someone end up getting the disease exactly what it was given to prevent? Guess this will be my research project because I definitely don’t have a degree in infectious diseases and vaccines! One exclusion: influenza vaccine bcuz the efficacy of that as we all know sucks.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT ANTI-VAX ?

 

[swatski]

There is nothing wrong with not being vaccinated.

And there would be nothing wrong with not being vaccinated with polio vaccine during polio epidemic, right?

FDR would had been so proud of people like yourself... lol.

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Frankly, I would like to understand the thought process... (call it morbid curiosity, lol).

However, I'm beginning to wonder as you also made comments about the scale of polio epidemic, mortality and morbidity vs covid-19 that were rather clueless, so maybe there is not so much a thought process but rather a simple desire to provoke?

Comparing Polio and COVID is not even remotely close. Much higher death rate and much higher risk for significant long-term effects. Your talking a highly contagious flu vs a life altering virus.

So let’s think about this: there were about 50,000 polio cases in the worst year for the disease, approx. a third of the people with polio were paralyzed, and there were 2-3,000 deaths.

COVID-19 - so far, way over 500,000 deaths. Morbidity and long term damage in survivors numbering logarithmically higher than the peak of polio - insanely high.

It’s astonishing that the U.S. conducted a mass vaccination program for a disease that killed two or three thousand patients a year, yet struggles to get enough people to take (free) shots for a disease that killed tens of thousands a week.

--

 

[swatski]

How many other vaccines have we seen over the years that still had someone end up getting the disease exactly what it was given to prevent?

All that require a booster shots, basically - Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae type B, Measles-mumps-rubella (MMR), Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis (Tdap), Varicella, Shingles, etc.

Good question though.

Immunological "memory" is a funny thing (and a very fascinating topic, at least for some of us, geeky scientists).

--

 

[adrianp89]

And there would be nothing wrong with not being vaccinated with polio vaccine during polio epidemic, right?

FDR would had been so proud of people like yourself... lol.

--
Frankly, I would like to understand the thought process... (call it morbid curiosity, lol).

However, I'm beginning to wonder as you also made comments about the scale of polio epidemic, mortality and morbidity vs covid-19 that were rather clueless, so maybe there is not so much a thought process but rather a simple desire to provoke?



So let’s think about this: there were about 50,000 polio cases in the worst year for the disease, approx. a third of the people with polio were paralyzed, and there were 2-3,000 deaths.

COVID-19 - so far, way over 500,000 deaths. Morbidity and long term damage in survivors numbering logarithmically higher than the peak of polio - insanely high.

It’s astonishing that the U.S. conducted a mass vaccination program for a disease that killed two or three thousand patients a year, yet struggles to get enough people to take (free) shots for a disease that killed tens of thousands a week.

--

And yet again, just like the mass media, you fail to recognize natural immunity as even an option.

Get vaccinated or die…. blah blah blah ?

 

[swatski]

Sidebar...How much rain did you get down there?

Let me just say this: the reason I'm still up is I'm pumping the water out of the pool, and need to watch it...
We got a few inches, and it's not easing up, yet.

A lot of water falling from the sky tonight - crazy amounts. At some point the large pool pump was barely keeping up with the inflow from the rain. Never sen anything like that here.

We are very fortunate - our house is on top of a hill, so everything drains, but the towns below us, all around, are completely inundated...

--

 

[swatski]

natural immunity

Please, educate me what do you mean by this.

I'm fairly certain I know more about this topic than most members of this forum, I've been an immunobiologist for a few decades. But I do not know what are you referring to. Other than RIG-I, TLRs, NLRs, and a bunch of IFNs there is very little that your "natural" immunity (if by that you mean "innate" - a more proper term inclusive of both "natural" IgM antibodies and cellular elements - mostly NK cells and some cytotoxic T cells recognizing PAMPs) has to offer. It's something, but it is not much.

Vaccination is better than infection, infection is better than no infection (or - being immunologically "naive" or not exposed), vaccination plus boosters will be the best option for most. What am I missing?

--

 

[zipper]

Let me just say this: the reason I'm still up is I'm pumping the water out of the pool, and need to watch it...
We got a few inches, and it's not easing up, yet.

A lot of water falling from the sky tonight - crazy amounts. At some point the large pool pump was barely keeping up with the inflow from the rain. Never sen anything like that here.

We are very fortunate - our house is on top of a hill, so everything drains, but the towns below us, all around, are completely inundated...

--

Thanks for the response. I deleted and moved the question to a more appropriate thread.

 

[2kwik4u]

Please, educate me what do you mean by this.

I'm fairly certain I know more about this topic than most members of this forum, I've been an immunobiologist for a few decades. But I do not know what are you referring to. Other than RIG-I, TLRs, NLRs, and a bunch of IFNs there is very little that your "natural" immunity (if by that you mean "innate" - a more proper term inclusive of both "natural" IgM antibodies and cellular elements - mostly NK cells and some cytotoxic T cells recognizing PAMPs) has to offer. It's something, but it is not much.

Vaccination is better than infection, infection is better than no infection (or - being immunologically "naive" or not exposed), vaccination plus boosters will be the best option for most. What am I missing?

--

Is the analogy below accurate?

Non exposure is equivalent to staring at a mountain you'll most likely have to climb at some point. You haven't done it yet, but you know it's coming, and your wondering how to prepare.

Exposure and natural immunity is equivalent to climbing it alone with an unknown path and basic equipment. Could be hard, could be easy depending on, essentially, luck. You might not make it over, you might not, but if you do you'll have the memory and know how to climb it next time.

Vaccination is equivalent to climbing the mountain in a Jeep with a well marked trail. You have better equipment, and a known good path. It'll still happen, you'll still climb the mountain, but it will be a far bit easier. You still have work ahead of you and it's not guaranteed to be perfectly easy, but you'll make it over faster, safer, and the chances of not making it are relatively low.

I've been making that analogy for awhile with the guys on the shop at work when naturally immunity comes up. Thoughts?

 

[tabbibus]

And yet again, just like the mass media, you fail to recognize natural immunity as even an option.

Get vaccinated or die…. blah blah blah ?

By natural immunity you mean let people get infected? Let the ones who survive have the immunity? How is this humane? Do you not care about the deaths? The ones with ongoing issues? The long covid? The families with big losses? The burden on the healthcare system?

For all those reasons, I think it is a terrible strategy.

 

[tabbibus]

@the MfM please update us with how it goes for you and your wife. I’m very interested how you guys handle it because I do believe with how infectious this virus is we will all possibly end up getting it even if you’re vaccinated.

I’m gonna open a can of worms here lol. How many other vaccines have we seen over the years that still had someone end up getting the disease exactly what it was given to prevent? Guess this will be my research project because I definitely don’t have a degree in infectious diseases and vaccines! One exclusion: influenza vaccine bcuz the efficacy of that as we all know sucks.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT ANTI-VAX ?

I would caution you on bad mouthing my dude (the flu shot). While yeah, you can still get the flu, I have NEVER seen a flu vaxxed patient end up in my ICU. 100% unvaccinated. Granted the amount of people who get to the ICU is much smaller than COVID, but a bad case of flu is still catastrophic, and it does not happen in vaccinated people.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

And yet again, just like the mass media, you fail to recognize natural immunity as even an option.

Get vaccinated or die…. blah blah blah ?

Here are today's numbers from the CDC:
TOTAL DEATHS
638,689
+1,209 New Deaths

I don't know why you continue to make fun of the number of fellow Americans who have, and continue to die, from this horrible virus. Every single one of these folks was someone's mother, father, daughter, or son.

And the numbers above don't even include those folks with serious, non-fatal health issues as a result of the virus.

Getting vaccinated, or not, is your personal choice. But, to continue to mock a life saving tool is just plain asinine.

Jim

 

[tabbibus]

Here are today's numbers from the CDC:
TOTAL DEATHS
638,689
+1,209 New Deaths

I don't know why you continue to make fun of the number of fellow Americans who have, and continue to die, from this horrible virus. Every single one of these folks was someone's mother, father, daughter, or son.

And the numbers above don't even include those folks with serious, non-fatal health issues as a result of the virus.

Getting vaccinated, or not, is your personal choice. But, to continue to mock a life saving tool is just plain asinine.

Jim

3 new pediatric deaths in most recent GA update. 3 children lost! My God. 2 of those in vaccination age. Heartbreaking and frustrating.

 

[adrianp89]

Here are today's numbers from the CDC:
TOTAL DEATHS
638,689
+1,209 New Deaths

I don't know why you continue to make fun of the number of fellow Americans who have, and continue to die, from this horrible virus. Every single one of these folks was someone's mother, father, daughter, or son.

And the numbers above don't even include those folks with serious, non-fatal health issues as a result of the virus.

Getting vaccinated, or not, is your personal choice. But, to continue to mock a life saving tool is just plain asinine.

Jim

I am not making fun of anyone. I fully respect your choice to get vaccinated, wear a mask, or not. I wish that mindset worked both ways. Non-vacc people are continually made fun of, attacked, and many other things. When you pressure others or dis-respect others for their own choice, I may poke the bear a little. These people seem get triggered on almost nothing, it can be amusing.

I am tired of the narrative that it is wrong and you are evil if you don't get vaccinated. Despite what @swatski claims, there are already legitimate studies showing natural anti-bodies are just as effective as the vaccine. (Which doesn't seem to working that well since breakthrough cases are on the rise). I do not doubt his profession or knowledge, but he isn't the know all. It is clear as day that natural immunity is being downplayed by the media and government.

Does SARS-CoV-2 natural infection immunity better protect against the Delta variant than vaccination?

A new study from Israel suggests immunity gained after recovering from a previous COVID-19 infection is more protective against the new Delta variant than vaccine-induced immunity. Natural immunity was estimated to be about 13 times stronger than having two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

www.news-medical.net

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Previous COVID infection may offer better protection against Delta compared to Pfizer shot

The finding comes from a study comparing natural immunity to the vaccines.

fortune.com

COVID-19 survivors may possess wide-ranging resistance to the disease | Emory University | Atlanta GA

Recovered COVID-19 patients retain broad and effective longer-term immunity to the disease, suggests a recent Emory University study, which is the most comprehensive of its kind so far. The findings have implications for expanding understanding about human immune memory as well as future vaccine...

news.emory.edu

I've been to other cities busy downtown areas (and nightlife), trains, airplanes, football games, baseball games, hockey games, and theme parks all without masks. I've been surrounded by thousands of people in close quarters all without masks. I am with out of state tourists several times a week without a mask. Majority of people in any of the above instances were not wearing masks (excluding the airplane) This is all since I tested positive for COVID. I trust the anti-bodies are doing their job.... or maybe I am just extremely lucky and I should play the lottery.

At the end of the day respect others opinions, choices and freedom to do as they please. This is a VERY slippery slope that has been building for a while (well before COVID).

What I find scariest is that this narrative seem ok for so many people. What if New York decides to freeze bank accounts for non-vaccinated people... is that ok? Where does this end?

 

[mwalker4]

Is the analogy below accurate?

Non exposure is equivalent to staring at a mountain you'll most likely have to climb at some point. You haven't done it yet, but you know it's coming, and your wondering how to prepare.

Exposure and natural immunity is equivalent to climbing it alone with an unknown path and basic equipment. Could be hard, could be easy depending on, essentially, luck. You might not make it over, you might not, but if you do you'll have the memory and know how to climb it next time.

Vaccination is equivalent to climbing the mountain in a Jeep with a well marked trail. You have better equipment, and a known good path. It'll still happen, you'll still climb the mountain, but it will be a far bit easier. You still have work ahead of you and it's not guaranteed to be perfectly easy, but you'll make it over faster, safer, and the chances of not making it are relatively low.

I've been making that analogy for awhile with the guys on the shop at work when naturally immunity comes up. Thoughts?

Seems like a decent analogy. I was pretty cautious until I got my jeep (vaxed) and was so excited. I think now we have every going up the mountain with some in jeeps. Hopefully, some people see how much trouble the journey is without the jeep and get the Vax. Because it seems this thing won't quiet down until almost everyone takes the journey. We can't change how many people get antibodies, just when and how they get them. I hope I didn't ruin your analogy.

 

[mark_m]

I am not making fun of anyone. I fully respect your choice to get vaccinated, wear a mask, or not. I wish that mindset worked both ways. Non-vacc people are continually made fun of, attacked, and many other things. When you pressure others or dis-respect others for their own choice, I may poke the bear a little. These people seem get triggered on almost nothing, it can be amusing.

I am tired of the narrative that it is wrong and you are evil if you don't get vaccinated. Despite what @swatski claims, there are already legitimate studies showing natural anti-bodies are just as effective as the vaccine. (Which doesn't seem to working that well since breakthrough cases are on the rise). I do not doubt his profession or knowledge, but he isn't the know all. It is clear as day that natural immunity is being downplayed by the media and government.

Does SARS-CoV-2 natural infection immunity better protect against the Delta variant than vaccination?

A new study from Israel suggests immunity gained after recovering from a previous COVID-19 infection is more protective against the new Delta variant than vaccine-induced immunity. Natural immunity was estimated to be about 13 times stronger than having two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

www.news-medical.net

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Previous COVID infection may offer better protection against Delta compared to Pfizer shot

The finding comes from a study comparing natural immunity to the vaccines.

fortune.com

COVID-19 survivors may possess wide-ranging resistance to the disease | Emory University | Atlanta GA

Recovered COVID-19 patients retain broad and effective longer-term immunity to the disease, suggests a recent Emory University study, which is the most comprehensive of its kind so far. The findings have implications for expanding understanding about human immune memory as well as future vaccine...

news.emory.edu

I've been to other cities busy downtown areas (and nightlife), trains, airplanes, football games, baseball games, hockey games, and theme parks all without masks. I've been surrounded by thousands of people in close quarters all without masks. I am with out of state tourists several times a week without a mask. Majority of people in any of the above instances were not wearing masks. This is all since I tested positive for COVID. I trust the anti-bodies are doing their job.... or maybe I am just extremely lucky and I should play the lottery.

At the end of the day respect others opinions, choices and freedom to do as they please. This is a VERY slippery slope that has been building for a while (well before COVID).

What I find scariest is that this narrative seem ok for so many people. What if New York decides to freeze bank accounts for non-vaccinated people... is that ok? Where does this end?

I see this as no different than the current vaccine mandates we have been living with for a long time now.

MMR (Measles-Mumps-Rubella) Vaccine Requirements for Childcare and School (Kg–Gr 12) 2023 | Immunize.org

www.immunize.org

In fact, I think that a mandate actually provides us more civil liberties by protecting the most vulnerable (fragile immune systems, people with disabilities, etc.) and when we get past this whole mess, life will hopefully return to normal. Where we don't have to wear masks, socially distance, etc.

EDIT: I also believe that it is a matter of public health and the mandate should be at the state / local health department and NOT a federal level.

 

[Acard7]

I would caution you on bad mouthing my dude (the flu shot). While yeah, you can still get the flu, I have NEVER seen a flu vaxxed patient end up in my ICU. 100% unvaccinated. Granted the amount of people who get to the ICU is much smaller than COVID, but a bad case of flu is still catastrophic, and it does not happen in vaccinated people.

Your "dude," lol! You are right though, we rarely see anyone out in the sticks with a bad case of the flu if vaccinated; we rarely see the flu out here anyhow though. Population of the town I work in is only 1500, the next town over is around 5000, and then we have a larger town to the south with a college (NWMSU) that has around 11-12k. I do get my flu shot every year which is coming up but I like to wait until October, not sure if I will wait until then since I will be wearing a mask anyhow.

Living in super rural areas helps keep people away from each other IMO, not a lot to do around here unless you travel 1.5-2 hours to shop. We are happy that our lake is only 20 minutes from us though!! So this becomes one of the excuses with covid when we talk to patients about vaccination, "There's not much around here, I don't feel it's that bad." I then have to explain to them that just because we don't see it as much doesn't mean it isn't "bad." I have plenty of friends that live in Texas and bigger cities that have let me know how bad it is, so I try to let patients know it's a matter of when it hits our small towns not if. The county over is reporting 15-20 cases a day, so it's here. I will say I don't force the vaccine on people, I highly encourage it (Especially older population) with facts and what-not, and if they don't accept it yet my courtesy of respecting their decision usually plants the seed and they return within a month to get it. One of those "You can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar" types of things I feel.