Used Porsche opportunity, what would you do?

[Ronnie]

So I was BSing with my dentist the other day and at the end of the conversation he offers to sell me his 2004 911 Carrara convertible for $15k. It has a 75k miles on it a new top and tires. The seats are starting to crack and some of the carbon fiber trim pieces are fading/flacking from sun exposure interior because he often left the top down.

Here are two pics of the exterior.




Not knowing jack about Porches I told him I will get back to him. Turns out the kbb on this in good condition is $15k but I did a 1000 mile radius online search and the cheapest comp. I could find was $27k. Some were asking $45k.

Anyway, I told my wife about it as a how was your day story and she gave me the green light to buy it and take her car's spot in the garage.

I've never been big on porches and never driven one but I'm thinking about buying it anyway, using it for a year (or so-until die) and sell it for at least what I paid for it.

What worries me are the possible maintenance costs. Is there a $5k tune up do at 75k miles? Are these things known to be problematic on certain systems? I need to do more research. I'm going to take a closer look and possibly talk to the owner tomorrow to set up a test drive.

I'm not on the fence yet but I'm climbing it.

I was thinking about buying something anyway so WTF or what the F am I thinking?

What would you do?

 

[Murf'n'surf]

No way! Maintenance cost is exuberant and the cost of parts is crazy. Put that 15k towards a new car.

Make sure you are comparing apples to apples on your search. There are multiple levels of Carreras.

 

[JC6275]

I agree with @Murf'n'surf, the maintenance costs are crazy, parts are not only expensive but also almost always special order and therefore at a higher premium.

 

[4x15mph]

I love the Porsches but have never owned one. If you know you will only have it for 1 year, than I think it could be a lot of fun. I don't know the prices on that car specifically for the resale but it sounds like you have narrowed that down.

If the timing belt has not been done, that would probably be very expensive ($2K+). That is a guess but definitely check on this. I would also want to see the other maintenance records which would give you an idea of the oil change cost (>$100?), etc.

I would be climbing the fence on this as well. A good Porsche mechanic should look it over

 

[MikeyL]

Sage advice already offered, @Ronnie .
If your Dentist truly "cared" about his toy, he already has a mechanic who has maintained this. I mean, it's already 12 years old.
Ask HIM who his mechanic is, and ask to have THAT mechanic do the check on it, WHILE YOU ARE WITH HIM.
Like a house inspection. Good Luck. I personally think this might be a good deal.
Best Wishes, Mikey Lulejian - Lake Oconee, GA

 

[Ronnie]

Thanks for the input so far guys. My wife is going to call our insurance agent about this today. It has low profile 18" tires which just scream "we are expensive". Unexpectedly high insurance costs killed a great deal I was offered on a corvette when I was teenager and just ten years ago I was looking at one at the dealership only to be informed that they wouldn't even talk to me about it unless I called my insurance agent first. Apparently they had too many deals fall through at that point. Maybe I should be looking for a used vette instead.

I hear you @Murf'n'surf and @JC6275 , there is a lot more to owning a car like this than just the purchase price. I like the idea of buying something new or newer but than the acquisition price climbs and I end up looking at models or other cars that I don't really like. I doubt I could buy any new car these days for $15k and I don't want to take out a loan to buy another car. Between my wife and I we already have four (a truck, SUV, sedan and coupe/honda civic), if I buy another car I will probably sell the honda. Going to @4x15mph 's comment the more I look at the pics the more I think I and we (wife and I) would look great in that car and my son isn't too big yet to fit in the back seat next to a bag of groceries if necessary. If it drives and rides well and the top works like I imagine I may make a deal on this before the end of the weekend.

Silly me, although I did a walk by I didn't even verify that its a stick and just assumed that it is. I don't even know if it requires premium fuel but again just assume that it does. In my defense, I wasn't even thinking about buying a car when he offered to sell it to me and the timing couldn't have been worse, I just got out of the dental chair after having some work done which required two shots to numb me up and although I still felt the pain of the drill I didn't say anything because I knew I'd be there longer if I did. Hopefully he is working today and the car isn't already sold. I will let you all know what happens, if anything.

 

[Ronnie]

Sage advice already offered, @Ronnie .
If your Dentist truly "cared" about his toy, he already has a mechanic who has maintained this. I mean, it's already 12 years old.
Ask HIM who his mechanic is, and ask to have THAT mechanic do the check on it, WHILE YOU ARE WITH HIM.
Like a house inspection. Good Luck. I personally think this might be a good deal.
Best Wishes, Mikey Lulejian - Lake Oconee, GA

Great advice @MikeyL it also reminded me to talk to my own mechanic to see if he has any experience/is comfortable working on Porsches. I have a hard time trusting mechanics, I've caught too many lying to sell me parts and services I didn't need.

 

[cozilla]

If he gets the work done at the dealer then I would have him get all the service records printed out and let you see them. That will give you an idea of what has been done to the car in terms of maintenance. I did this when I bought my e46 M3 in 2007. That gave me a starting point to where I needed to pickup the maintenance. Just like the boat I try and do all work myself before I take it to the shop. Forums are a great wealth of knowledge as you know from this forum and others. Indy shops are the way to go in terms of saving on labor costs as the stealership usually charges by the book time for a repair instead of the actual time as well as lower hourly rates. I would search online for common issues with Porsche 997 Carreras. I think it would be a fun car to drive. Not sure if I would want to drive it as a daily but fun run around and weekend car for sure.

 

[txav8r]

It seems to me if I am going to kick another vehicle outside and give a place in the garage to a special car, it needs to be special. Sounds like that car has been neglected a little due to the interior damage. Like everyone has said, getting into these cars is one of the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" propositions. While 15K sounds affordable, I know it isn't going to stop with that. I would love a car like that too, but the cost of ownership would piss me off. I would want to fix all the things that needed it, and after a few $1000 fixing cosmetics, and then probably all the 75-100K miles service work, I would choke. I think you will easily spend the cost of the car in ownership alone to keep this car up over the next 25K miles. I would be short of straddling the fence...I would stay in my yard! But damn, it is gorgeous on the outside!

 

[Bruce]

How many miles would you plan to put on her?

We have a 65k mile 1994 968 that I have owned for over a decade. Before we had kids we autocrossed at least once a month and pushed her pretty hard. She was my daily driver for two years but I work from home. For the last seven years she has only come out for special events. I bought her with 45k miles. I have performed most of the maintenance myself. Insurance is covered by a $400 per year classic car policy.

Personally I would jump on the opportunity to buy that 911 for $15k. She is a driver not a collector so she will continue to depreciate but if you clean up the interior you should be able to sell her for more. But once you have driven her for a while I bet she earns a permanent place in your garage.

 

[Bruce]

Here is a listing for a very similar 2000 model

http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/828365-2000-porsche-996-cabriolet-for-sale.html

 

[itsdgm]

@Ronnie that car looks sweet!!! I Would never have guessed that it would only cost $15k. Personally, I'd be tempted too. I do know of a guy down by me that owns a Porsche repair shop. He's quite the character, but he has a passion for them. Let me know if you want his contact info. He would probably know everything to look for in that car and might be able to help you over the phone. If not, maybe we can find a way to fly me up there and I'll drive it down here so he can look at it for you I'll have to take the longest route back down of course

 

[GTBRMC]

What would I do?

I would not buy it, of course.

But you seem to have a lot more fun than I do, so maybe you should buy it.

Great driver's car. Would be a blast revving it through some winding canyon roads.

 

[Big Shasta]

I don't know crap about Porsche and this might not help but maybe it'll make you feel better about finding a deal later if you pass on this one.

Check out this ebay search 'AMG55' if it doesn't work:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xamg 55&_nkw=amg 55&_sacat=0

It's amazing what you can get for around 20K in a supercharged hard top convertible with ~ 500hp that sold for 80K+ new.

If it was just me and my wife, we'd be sporting one right now.......in a few years.

 

[Ronnie]

Just a quick update.

I didn't see the car yesterday because I forgot that as a Sr. Partner the owner doesn't work Fridays or Mondays anymore. I did call my insurance company and full coverage is $1,250 per year which is at least twice what I currently pay for any of the other cars on my policy. I can live with this. Misc.: collision liability only is $400. I also found the following online which has me concerned as it seems very similar to the oil cooler failures in the 2010/20122 YJB with 1.8L engines. The big difference being that is this bearing fails on the Porsche while I own it, I would have to pay the full cost (thousands) to replace it (I think the engine needs to be removed to do it) since there is no extended warranty. I still need to do a little more research but I'm ready to set up an appointment with the owner to see if I can get a test drive/ride.

AS REGARDS IMS BEARING ISSUES AND THESE CARS, PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING...
From 1997 to 1999, Porsche use a dual row intermediate shaft bearing which has proven to be as robust as the larger single row used from 2006 through 2008 model years.
Starting in 2000, Porsche began phasing out the dual row bearing and went to a smaller single row, with significantly less load capacity. From 2002 through 2005, all engines used this smaller intermediate shaft bearing until they went to the larger, third revision for the 2006 model year, which increased the load capacity back to what the original dual row bearing could support. The larger model year 2006 and later bearing also increased the diameter, which increased the bearing and ball speed, further improving the bearing. However, this change has not been enough to resolve the IMS failure issues.
By far, the single row ball-bearing used starting in model year 2000 through 2005 are the most problematic.
Based off projections calculated by a fellow Porsche enthusiast and retired bearing engineer from Timken, they figure a 90% survival rate of the single-row 6204 ball-bearing used in the IMS at 90,000 miles* -- resulting in a staggering 10% failure rate (called the Ll0 life)! *Assuming an average speed of 60mph in top gear. This coincides with the high number of failures we see in these model years. Regardless, all M96 and M97 engines from 1997 through 2008 can suffer intermediate shaft bearing failures at any mileage and at any time.
According to information published about the Eisen IMS Class Action Lawsuit, the single row IMS bearing used in 2000 through 2005 model years is reported to have an 8% failure rate, versus less than 1% with the dual row IMS bearing. The 8% failure rate cited by the settlement documents is not far off of the calculated L10 life we have been using for the last five years! With half the load capacity, it is clear to see that the reduced load capacity of the single row IMS bearing is a significant contributing factor to the increased number of failures.

 

[MikeyL]

@Ronnie : My 2 cents worth ....... and then I am going our back and throw some "plastics" at more Suicide Bass for awhile.

After reading the article you posted above about the "bearing situation/failure rate," I now change my mind.

I DO compliment your thorough investigation of this fine auto, but based on that report, I now vote a SOLID "NO - Don't buy this !"
Best Wishes however you decide, Mikey Lulejian - Hoping to catch at least a 0.5 lb largemouth this afternoon (LOL !) on Lake Oconee, GA

 

[Bruce]

@Ronnie, I would post on Rennlist.com and ask for opinions there.

 

[veedubtek]

IMS is definitely your biggest concern. Not a cab fan myself, but there is a 996 in my future. That price is good enough that you can easily budget an LN IMS retrofit, RMS, and clutch job and still be into it very well, with no real future worries. The engine does have to come out, but that's an easy task, and it doesn't need split open to do the service (unlike the 997's). I would plan on this service right away. If it lets go, you're looking at closer to a 20 grand repair, verses a $5,000 service now. And, reselling the car, should you choose at a later date, will be easy with this service documented, for probably more than you'll have in the car. 996 value is low right now, but it's slowly starting to climb back out as all 911's do. If nothing else, I think it's a really good investment.

 

[Ronnie]

Thanks for all the thoughts guys but sometimes I feel like if it weren't for bad luck I would have none. I bought a used 2010 242ls knowing about the potential for developing leaky oil coolers but thinking , ah it's got 100 hours on it already if they haven't let go yet they probably won't. I was wrong and the repair was in the $2,500 range, thankfully I transferred the extended warranty. A few years back I didn't do the research and bought a used '03 Chevy avalanche that was working perfectly for 5k miles before I had to replace the transmission for $3,500, not long afterwards the transfer case died for another $2,000, turns out transmissions problems are not an uncommon thing for that year avalanche. With a 8% to 10% chance of Ims bearing failure and a $5k preventive maintenance bill I think I'm going to pass on this one.

 

[itsdgm]

@Ronnie are you certain that the upgrade hasn't already been done by the owner?