Will a 2019 Yamaha handle better than the old models in low speeds

[cindr]

I am thinking of purchasing a new 2019 Yamaha 212. I have owned a 2005 SR230 for 14 years. I have had two sets of Cobra fins (originals and then ultimate) but found my steering becomming very stiff. The person that services my boat said the fins were the problem for the stiffness. He took them off and steering is much easier. Problem is, docking is much harder.

Can anybody that has owned both the pre-articulating keel, and a newer yamaha with articulating keel, tell me if the newer boat handles better at low speeds? Any other observations will be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Betik]

You mean hard at speed ? If you I believe you can adjust them to be out of the water at speed

 

[Cambo]

I had the original cobra jet fins and it feels similar at slow speeds but the lateral thrusters help when I can remember what way to turn the wheel and witch throttle to use to get the back to swing in . I find most of the control is from using the shifter from neutral to forward and an occasional reverse

 

[cindr]

Steering was hard at all speeds.

 

[cindr]

@Cambo, so no big difference in handling your 2017 to your 2005 with original Cobra fins? How about straight tracking in slow speeds with the articulating keel, any difference?

 

[Cambo]

No big difference the e throttle is very smooth and I was familiar with the 2005 pushing pretty hard through the different gate positions . I almost dumped my son in the water twice . Pulling into the dock is almost identical this boat is much taller and catches the wind more you know the move when missing the correct alignment for docking back up a quick 360 set up and do it again . It seems to be dock in relation to the wind is the biggest factor . The other thing that feels identical is picking up people from the board sports , wakeboarding and Wakesurfing slow speed maneuvering around them is the same throttle bump to get it to turn . At speed the back end does not seem to pull when someone goes wide on a board a single slalom ski would probably be noticeable but that sport is dead

 

[swatski]

I am thinking of purchasing a new 2019 Yamaha 212. I have owned a 2005 SR230 for 14 years. I have had two sets of Cobra fins (originals and then ultimate) but found my steering becomming very stiff. The person that services my boat said the fins were the problem for the stiffness. He took them off and steering is much easier. Problem is, docking is much harder.

Can anybody that has owned both the pre-articulating keel, and a newer yamaha with articulating keel, tell me if the newer boat handles better at low speeds? Any other observations will be appreciated. Thanks

If you buy a 2019 MY I would make sure you get new redesigned pumps, those have lateral thrusters built-in.
I would still want Cobras for enhanced steering at speed, and when losing speed (no thrust).

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[robert843]

I have found the opposite slow speed turning is more difficult with my 2017 AR240 versus my old 2011 SX240. The keel going down the middle of the boat wants to keep it straight so the turning process at slow speeds takes longer or you have to apply more power.

 

[BakedZiti]

There would be a lot of reasons to step into a newer boat, slow speed steering would be low on my list, I still installed Cobra fins

 

[adrianp89]

My '17 was horrible with straight line tracking at any speed. With the Cobras it goes straight no problem. Yesterday was a nice calm day on the water and I probably covered 2 miles at full throttle without touching the wheel. Could do the same at low if any of our channels were that straight lol.

 

[cindr]

Lot's of great info that will help me make a decision. Thank you all, you are super!

I may end up with an in-board out-board. I'm getting too old to fight with the jet boat and don't spend enough time on the water to have Yamaha jet boat driving become second nature in difficult situations.

Have a great 4th and happy boating.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

If you buy a 2019 MY I would make sure you get new redesigned pumps, those have lateral thrusters built-in.
I would still want Cobras for enhanced steering at speed, and when losing speed (no thrust).

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My 2 cents on that statement, first the nozzle reverse openings are at approximately 45 degrees so the water is directed out of the bottom of the nozzle in different directions rather than toward the the front of the boat like the older nozzles . This is similar to the angled reverse coming out of their reverse hoods on the p w c's however using the reverse hoods makes the reverse steering backward like a sea doo or other 4 tec powered model.
The good thing is the turning while backing is easier and quicker to respond but not overbearing, the bad thing is you loose a lot of reverse thrust for powering backward in reverse or stopping in reverse. When it comes to these nozzles on a twin engine boat there is an entirely new set of issues being created here, but I choose not to go into all that at this point, other than to say that it could be a lot more effective in my opinion.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

I am thinking of purchasing a new 2019 Yamaha 212. I have owned a 2005 SR230 for 14 years. I have had two sets of Cobra fins (originals and then ultimate) but found my steering becomming very stiff. The person that services my boat said the fins were the problem for the stiffness. He took them off and steering is much easier. Problem is, docking is much harder.

Can anybody that has owned both the pre-articulating keel, and a newer yamaha with articulating keel, tell me if the newer boat handles better at low speeds? Any other observations will be appreciated. Thanks

on this I wonder if this was progressively harder to turn or it just happened all of a sudden or it was like it from day one, because if it was not like it from day one then something is causing the resistance, my experience tells me it is either the steering cables binding or the helm just getting old.
One would expect this and the helms do not even have grease points on them. so here is the test on the trailer use one hand on one nozzle and if you can easily turn the nozzle from one side to the other thus moving the steering wheel and the other nozzle all at the same time you know the steering parts are ok, then if this was just a recent issue you need to look elsewhere like nozzle alignment . This really sounds like a normal case of steering cable resistance due to age .
hat being said you can use the ultimate system in a variety of option settings including All Up AT SPEED so you can still have the steering for slow speed and not for high speed if everything else checks out ok but I really believe this is a cable issue or a helm issue .

 

[Ancient canoe]

@Cobra Jet Steering LLC
With the 2019 nozzles do the fangs interfere with the reverse angled flow? I am looking into fins but wasn't sure if the fangs would disrupt the angled reverse flow?

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

People do use them on the 2019 models all the time never had a single issue to date keep in mind the reverse thrust is NOT going out the side at a 90 degree angle it is more like a45 degree angle aimed down as well as out so the fins or fangs do not cause an issue they seem to interact in a positive way

 

[swatski]

People do use them on the 2019 models all the time never had a single issue to date keep in mind the reverse thrust is NOT going out the side at a 90 degree angle it is more like a45 degree angle aimed down as well as out so the fins or fangs do not cause an issue they seem to interact in a positive way

I don’t know what to think about that. Some people may want to maximize lateral thrust. I personally wouldn’t trade it for reduced strait reverse.

The Yamaha new design does have some issues but to me it is about the best compromise one can have while maintaining intuitive steering (unlike BRP).

Now that I think about it, the Thrust Vectors @JetBoatPilot makes would also obstruct the Yamaha new nozzle lateral thrust, no?

—

 

[JetBoatPilot]

I don’t know what to think about that. Some people may want to maximize lateral thrust. I personally wouldn’t trade it for reduced strait reverse.

The Yamaha new design does have some issues but to me it is about the best compromise one can have while maintaining intuitive steering (unlike BRP).

Now that I think about it, the Thrust Vectors @JetBoatPilot makes would also obstruct the Yamaha new nozzle lateral thrust, no?

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The Thrust Vector X was modified a bit compared to the XV. It does obstruct some of the Lateral flow of the Lateral style nozzle but only marginally. Actually it is really a benefit because it tends to make the control a bit more measured compared to finless. I personally feel more confident in reverse with the Thrust Vector X installed as compared to without....but you may want to defer to someone else's judgment on this opinion since I am biased just a bit! Lol

 

[swatski]

The Thrust Vector X was modified a bit compared to the XV. It does obstruct some of the Lateral flow of the Lateral style nozzle but only marginally. Actually it is really a benefit because it tends to make the control a bit more measured compared to finless. I personally feel more confident in reverse with the Thrust Vector X installed as compared to without....but you may want to defer to someone else's judgment on this opinion since I am biased just a bit! Lol

That's informative!

Which I think leaves the choice of Cobras vs TVs where the partial obstruction of the lateral thrust is a feature of both. Cobras can be adjusted up to minimize that but that decreases their influence when riding forward, probably not a good trade.

Importantly, both @Cobra Jet Steering LLC and @JetBoatPilot seem to agree (!) the slight deflection of angled/lateral thrust is actually beneficial for the reverse (functionality-wise).


And BTW -
Funny thing is, we predicted how the new Yamaha nozzles would work some time ago! They have had a good working model in the skis albeit totally different that the twins of course.

There are some caveats to the picture above of course - it is a ski bucket (not boat), so that is different, the boat pumps generate reverse through the bottom opening (red arrow):
(shown here by my trusted assistant)
View attachment 70325


So, yes - there is a flaw with the image I posted (I should have indicated more clearly it was a ski pump, not boat). But there is no flaw with the forces.
It is still all Newton Second Law of Motion. Force, mass and acceleration, and vectors of force/thrust.

Lets compare it to the classic example of two ice skaters pushing on a third.

Illustrating this with the head-to-tail force vectors - where forces are vectors and add like other vectors, so the total force on the third skater is in the direction shown:

View attachment 70323



So - what would it translate (or look like) - at the stern of a twin engine Yamaha jet boat?

Well, lets see!
(this is not a high quality schematic, lol)

View attachment 70322
F1 through F5 are water jet vectors, so the thrust (force) would have the reverse vector (direction).
The F5 is water bouncing off of the transom, when the nozzles are turned.
(In addition to F5 there would also be water dispersing up and down, I omitted that here for simplicity, but it could further aid the system the same way the factory TDE works. Not the most important here.)

The bottom line - those deflectors can generate lateral thrust to move the stern to a side.

The above example would work with both buckets down at the same time.
So - this would be a "no skill involved" scenario.

With some skill, one could use only one pump/bucket/lateral thruster, so to push the stern to STRBD one would only use the PORT pump - and the F3-F5 would disappear making the system work more efficient/faster.


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[cindr]

on this I wonder if this was progressively harder to turn or it just happened all of a sudden or it was like it from day one, because if it was not like it from day one then something is causing the resistance, my experience tells me it is either the steering cables binding or the helm just getting old.
One would expect this and the helms do not even have grease points on them. so here is the test on the trailer use one hand on one nozzle and if you can easily turn the nozzle from one side to the other thus moving the steering wheel and the other nozzle all at the same time you know the steering parts are ok, then if this was just a recent issue you need to look elsewhere like nozzle alignment . This really sounds like a normal case of steering cable resistance due to age .
hat being said you can use the ultimate system in a variety of option settings including All Up AT SPEED so you can still have the steering for slow speed and not for high speed if everything else checks out ok but I really believe this is a cable issue or a helm issue .

 

[cindr]

My first thought regarding the steering stiffness was that I needed new cables. Turned out, that was not the case. As I mentioned in my first post, once the fins came off, the steering improved. I didn't do the work myself and am not sure if there was any damage to the fins to make the situation what it was, but I know for a fact it was not the steering cables that caused the stiffness. Perhaps it was something with the fangs. Seems things got worse when they were added and they never really did anything to help reverse steering. The fins did help with slow speed maneuverability, so I am not trying to denigrate your product. I am not sure how you test your products (it would be great if you would supply more information on that), but I suspect you rely somewhat on customer feedback.