Yamaha AR190 - True Neutral??

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Yamaha uses the same or very similar reverse bucket design on their p w c's and that reverse also operates backward like the sea doo reverse , that style of reverse bucket has been around for decades . It has it's drawbacks also and many people come to me with complaints about the slow speed handling of the B R P pumps on numerous makes of jet boats as well as complaints about high speed response in big waves or wind and currents. Jets are jets . In the past 19 years I have found that fixing the shortcomings of jet steering will make a jet boat handle better than a prop boat keep in mind props PULL and jets PUSH. Props cavitate in sharp high speed turns, jets don't . I make jets boats steer without thrust and do 180 turns with very little loss of speed. With high performance steering you can do what you want with a jet driven boat. What really matters is predictability, versatility and reliability.

 

[mwalker4]

When I think of it, the new yamaha reverse bucket either doesn't come into play or might be a negative to forward slow speed steering with bucket partially down. If water is actually being forced through the reverse it seems the overall force vector would be fighting the steering.

While moving forward, a wheel turned hard right should push the rear left. Water going through the reverse should have two directions. One directly to the rear and one pushing to right, thus fighting the intended steering direction. So I don't think new reverse design improves slow speed steering in Yamahas. Thoughts? I am certainly not sure of this.

 

[dshscarab]

I add my 2 cents to this coming from a 2018 Scarab (BRP) to a 2019 Yamaha AR 195. As far as low speed handling, the Scarab wins all day long even with the Cobra Jet that I have installed on my AR195. It is not even close. With the Scarab, I could literally spin the boat completely around without even moving forward an inch. Even with the redesigned on the AR195, I still have to move the boat to change direction. I love the quality of the AR195 but I miss the handling and speed of the Scarab (BRP) 165 ID.

 

[2kwik4u]

I'd add that when you are in neutral, you can still rotate left and right. The BRP products don't suffer from the lack of maneuverability at slow/idle speeds that the Yamaha's do (hence after market "rudders" that improve steering at slow speeds. The only strange thing with the BRP boats is turning the wheel when reversing and having it turn opposite what you are expecting.

I want to correct this a little.

""The BRP products don't suffer from the lack of intuitive maneuverability at slow/idle speeds that the Yamaha's do (hence after market "rudders" that improve steering at slow speeds.""

I've found that holding position in my jet to be FAR superior than holding in my I/O boat, or my buddys Outboard powered pontoon. The difference is you can't just toss it in neutral and walk away and expect the boat to be in the exact same position you left it. I suspect that BRP's are similar. Most likely the governing issues are wind/current more than jet thrust level/direction. If you can truly set a BRP product in one position and walk away and not have it drift/creep/slide/move from that position, I want to see it. The amount of control we have over position at slow/low speed is extremely low in any craft, and a "driving style" must be adapted for that craft. This applies to a jet boat, a tug boat, a wake boat, or a row boat. A certain level of mental dexterity must be used to hold position.

My point being.......we're somewhat picking the fly poop out of pepper here. The thrust level and direction is such a small contribution to craft movement at idle that it's essentially worthless. Some throttle must be applied to create enough thrust to actively move the craft in a given direction for maneuvering purposes.

The big eye opener for me was the final realization that there is no transmission, and the "clunk" for shifting to reverse/forward/neutral was not there and that change could be made at will at any time for any reason without anyone else on the boat really noticing or caring. SO.....shift now, shift often, you position will thank you.

 

[dshscarab]

Just to clarify, @2kwik4u, you are correct. Even with the Scarab, I couldn't just put it into N and walk away. As you stated, wind and current play a lot into it. I was only stating that low speed maneuverability is far superior to Yamaha even with the redesign. Don't get me wrong, I love my Yamaha and would trade it back for the Scarab. I believe the build quality far exceeds the Scarab. I just miss the low handling a bit.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Scarab uses the b r p reverse bucket that shoots the water out one side or the other, that bucket is fixed it does not turn with the nozzle, thus the steering wheel must be turned backward from conventional reverse same as the Yamaha P W C setup. And we are talking about a single engine, the twin engine boats can do many more things by staggering the throttles and that goes for both Yamaha and b r p boats. But get in any b r p at slow speed or Yamaha in heavy boat traffic and a big wake grabs your boat and you are both in a world of trouble,
Get caught out in rough conditions or a storm and you will want a lot more steering response.
Coming in to puck up a skier and slow down rapidly while you are turning and they will be at the boats mercy, docking may take a little practice but no one wants to put up with loss of control , bow wander, and a real uneasy feeling in traffic, current, wind and waves.

 

[bigwaves]

Scarab uses the b r p reverse bucket that shoots the water out one side or the other, that bucket is fixed it does not turn with the nozzle, thus the steering wheel must be turned backward from conventional reverse same as the Yamaha P W C setup. And we are talking about a single engine, the twin engine boats can do many more things by staggering the throttles and that goes for both Yamaha and b r p boats. But get in any b r p at slow speed or Yamaha in heavy boat traffic and a big wake grabs your boat and you are both in a world of trouble,
Get caught out in rough conditions or a storm and you will want a lot more steering response.
Coming in to puck up a skier and slow down rapidly while you are turning and they will be at the boats mercy, docking may take a little practice but no one wants to put up with loss of control , bow wander, and a real uneasy feeling in traffic, current, wind and waves.

I really appreciate all the responses. This is a very active and engaged forum. All this has given me a lot to think about regarding following through with the purchase of the AR190 or any jet boat. I certainly don’t want to run over a wakeboarder who has fallen or bounce off other boaters on a high traffic day in Annapolis because a jet boat doesn’t maneuver well in traffic at slow speeds. I have a test drive scheduled for Saturday on the Yamaha and now, many more questions for the salesman. I’m going to check out the Vortex jet boats as well.

 

[Dean P]

I really appreciate all the responses. This is a very active and engaged forum. All this has given me a lot to think about regarding following through with the purchase of the AR190 or any jet boat. I certainly don’t want to run over a wakeboarder who has fallen or bounce off other boaters on a high traffic day in Annapolis because a jet boat doesn’t maneuver well in traffic at slow speeds. I have a test drive scheduled for Saturday on the Yamaha and now, many more questions for the salesman. I’m going to check out the Vortex jet boats as well.

If you don't mind, please let us know what your salesman said with your questions. Sounds like we may know more than him. We'll definitely let you know if his statements are accurate.

 

[sananvet]

Scarab uses the b r p reverse bucket that shoots the water out one side or the other, that bucket is fixed it does not turn with the nozzle, thus the steering wheel must be turned backward from conventional reverse same as the Yamaha P W C setup. And we are talking about a single engine, the twin engine boats can do many more things by staggering the throttles and that goes for both Yamaha and b r p boats. But get in any b r p at slow speed or Yamaha in heavy boat traffic and a big wake grabs your boat and you are both in a world of trouble,
Get caught out in rough conditions or a storm and you will want a lot more steering response.
Coming in to puck up a skier and slow down rapidly while you are turning and they will be at the boats mercy, docking may take a little practice but no one wants to put up with loss of control , bow wander, and a real uneasy feeling in traffic, current, wind and waves.

The family and I did Gasparilla this past weekend. Its a freaking zoo. Boats travelling at 10 mph in close enough quarters you could walk across them for a 1/2 mile and not get wet. Gotta say I was really pleased with how my 210 FSH handled. Being able to control both throttles was a God send. I dont believe I would have come out unscathed in a single engine jet boat. I sweated a bit getting caught between some larger vessels (over 40ft) on both sides and boats off the stern and bow at the same time. The wake and turbulent water makes steering incredibly unpredictable.

 

[bigwaves]

If you don't mind, please let us know what your salesman said with your questions. Sounds like we may know more than him. We'll definitely let you know if his statements are accurate.

I have learned far more in this forum than was shared with me by the salesman. He told me that Yamaha was the only boat with a true neutral and slow speed maneuvering was no problem.

 

[Dean P]

The family and I did Gasparilla this past weekend. Its a freaking zoo. Boats travelling at 10 mph in close enough quarters you could walk across them for a 1/2 mile and not get wet. Gotta say I was really pleased with how my 210 FSH handled. Being able to control both throttles was a God send. I dont believe I would have come out unscathed in a single engine jet boat. I sweated a bit getting caught between some larger vessels (over 40ft) on both sides and boats off the stern and bow at the same time. The wake and turbulent water makes steering incredibly unpredictable.

Agreed, I was there too! Second year going. Loved every minute of it. Can be challenging at times to avoid other boats but have never hit anyone. Look forward to next year.

 

[Dean P]

I have learned far more in this forum than was shared with me by the salesman. He told me that Yamaha was the only boat with a true neutral and slow speed maneuvering was no problem.

Now you know better...maybe you can educate him. Good luck with your test drive.

 

[2kwik4u]

I certainly don’t want to run over a wakeboarder who has fallen or bounce off other boaters on a high traffic day in Annapolis because a jet boat doesn’t maneuver well in traffic at slow speeds.

This is getting WAY blown out of proportion IMO. The handling at slow speed is perfectly acceptable, and presents no danger. The expectations are getting set far in the wrong direction (by a person that sells a product to "correct" the perceived shortcomings). The real issue with jet boat handling is not in it's abilities, but in it's perceptions and the expectations that are set.

You can drive an I/O somewhat like a car. Throttle is independent of steering. Come off the gas, and you still have a large control surface in the water with an I/O. With a jet, it's not like that,it doesn't drive like a car, and as such is not directly intuitive to most people. This doesn't mean it's bad, dangerous, or otherwise compromised It's simply different. You must have a different mind set to accurately, and competently pilot a jet powered vessel. Same goes for a motorcycle, a skid steer, or airplane. The controls, and reactions are slightly different, and that has to be taken into account when operating.

To have steering authority in a jet, you MUST have thrust. To have thrust you must have revs and throttle. So when you approach a downed skier, and you must come off throttle.....don't just coast aimlessly, come down off throttle slower, and maintain slight thrust to increase directional control. If you must "panic stop", then throw the throttle in reverse, and steer with the rear of the boat instead of the front. You can quickly and easily stop a jet in a safe manner and not run over anyone, or bonk into other boats/docks.

It's 100% about learning your machine, how to use it properly, how to take advantage of it's traits, and avoid it's potential pitfalls. I'll take the Pepsi challenge with anyone on maneuverability.

I have learned far more in this forum than was shared with me by the salesman. He told me that Yamaha was the only boat with a true neutral and slow speed maneuvering was no problem.

He's not wrong on the maneuvering part. True neutral doesn't exist in any jet boat, and arguably doesn't exist in any boat that is exposed to current/wind. I implore you to go in with an open mind, and realistic expectations. It's not like driving a car, but it's not like you're completely adrift either.

***EDIT*** I reread my post....and I'm really bad at spelling, grammar, punctuation, and basic word choice. I corrected about 6 different things, but didn't change the content

 

[bigwaves]

This is getting WAY blown out of proportion IMO. The handling at slow speed is perfectly acceptable, and present no danger. The expectations are getting set far in the wrong direction (by a person that sells a product to "correct" the percieved shortcomings). The real issue with jet boat handling is not in it's abilities, but in it's perceptions and the expectations that are set.

You can drive an I/O somewhat like a car. Throttle is independent of steering. Come off the gas, and you still have a large control surface in the water with an I/O. With a jet, it's not like that,it doesn't drive like a car, and as such isnot directly inventive to most people. This doesn't mean it's bad, dangerous, or otherwise compromised, it's simply different. You must have a different mind set to accurately, and competently pilot a jet powered vessel. Same goes for a motorcycle, a skid steer, or airplane. The controls, and reactions are slightly different, and that has to be taken into account when operating.

To have steering authority in a jet, you MUST have thrust. To have thrust you must have revs and throttle. So when you approach a downed skier, and you must come off throttle.....don't just coast aimlessly, come down off throttle slower, and maintain slight thrust to increase directional control. If you must "panic stop", then throw the throttle in reverse, and steer with the rear of the boat instead of the front. You can quickly and easily stop a jet in a safe manner and not run over anyone, or bonk into other boats/docks.

It's 100% about learning your machine, how to use it properly, how to take advantage of it's traits, and avoid it's potential pitfalls. I'll take the Pepsi challenge with anyone on maneuverability.



He's not wrong on the maneuvering part. True neutral doesn't exist in any jet boat, and arguably doesn't exist in any boat that is exposed to current/wind. I implore you to go in with an open mind, and realistic expectations. It's not like driving a car, but it's not like you're completely adrift either.

I’m definitely going in with an open mind. I want the boat! I know it’s a completely different animal than my Formula 41pc. I don’t expect the Yamaha to behave the same. If the boat is controllable, I learn how to do it. I learned how to safely navigate my Formula in traffic and tight marinas. So I will hopefully be able to do the same with a jet boat. Again, thanks for all the very helpful responses.

 

[Nexus]

If you can truly set a BRP product in one position and walk away and not have it drift/creep/slide/move from that position, I want to see it.

Here you go:

Don't try this at home!

 

[Weeb]

I’m definitely going in with an open mind. I want the boat! I know it’s a completely different animal than my Formula 41pc. I don’t expect the Yamaha to behave the same. If the boat is controllable, I learn how to do it. I learned how to safely navigate my Formula in traffic and tight marinas. So I will hopefully be able to do the same with a jet boat. Again, thanks for all the very helpful responses.

You’ll be fine with a jet drive once you get the feel for it. You just need to think ahead just like with your formula.

 

[dshscarab]

Again I have to totally agree with @2kwik4u. I am very confident and can drive the Yamaha great at slow speed. No problems at all. I was only comparing the two systems. Again, I love the AR195. I wouldn't trade it back for the Scarab.

 

[Dean P]

I have to disagree here @2kwik4u. Handling of the older Yami is not and was not acceptable. If it was than why change the design? If it's not broken then don't fix it. They added a ruder to help in low speed steering. They know there's an issue and they're redesigning to make us safer on the water. My 2015 192 was a nightmare trying to dock or trailer till I purchased apparatus to help. Having very little thrust expelling from the jet and not being able to steer is a danger to all around you. But, like you mentioned, thru learning a technique you figure out how to control and point the boat in the direction you want to go; like point and shoot (that how Cycle Springs explained it to me).

Maybe the word/phrase "True Neutral" is confusing with idling??? IDK. An i/o must be taken out of gear to idle so the boat will not move. Our jets can't do that so an interference must happen (with the jet stream) to have an effect of being in neutral. Just stating the obvious. BRP's system of controlling and positioning the boat in a stationary spot is brilliant and remarkable and it works. IMO this is a common sense idea that had to wait for technology to catch up. Surprised other jet boat manufacturers haven't joined the band wagon.

I love the fact that I can jump off my boat and it stays put (under normal conditions). It's not just a gimmick but a fact. I've sat in the bow of my boat and had conversation with people on their dock with ease. Until Yamaha does this they cannot compete with BRP iST and eReverse systems. This was a main concern/reason for not sticking with Yamaha and getting a Chap.

 

[2kwik4u]

Here you go:

Don't try this at home!

No wind or current there. That helps. That neutral is pretty stable as well, although the video of that part doesn't last too long.

Thanks for the video.....I'm going to attempt this move this summer. $5 says I can do the same thing in my Yamaha, although most likely not quite as smoothly.....or a cold brew of some flavor

I have to disagree here @2kwik4u. Handling of the older Yami is not and was not acceptable. If it was than why change the design? If it's not broken then don't fix it. They added a ruder to help in low speed steering. They know there's an issue and they're redesigning to make us safer on the water.

Are they fixing it to make us safer, or to respond to poor perception? Nobody really knows to be honest. I suspect the latter, but again, I don't know. The "if it's not broke, don't fix it" is quite possibly the WORST saying to employ on any consumer product. Constant evolution of the product line is what keeps you ahead of the competition, not complacency and "It ain't broke" mentality.

I will admit to only having considerable time behind the wheel of a single engine with the articulating keel (fancy ass shallow rudder). I have about 20min of seat time in a 2007 SX230 during a test drive, but we weren't even remotely close to the dock, and it was over 10yrs ago now. Perhaps those were worse.....but to call the current setup unacceptable and unsafe is a stretch at best.

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Dean P]

No wind or current there. That helps. That neutral is pretty stable as well, although the video of that part doesn't last too long.

Thanks for the video.....I'm going to attempt this move this summer. $5 says I can do the same thing in my Yamaha, although most likely not quite as smoothly.....or a cold brew of some flavor



Are they fixing it to make us safer, or to respond to poor perception? Nobody really knows to be honest. I suspect the latter, but again, I don't know. The "if it's not broke, don't fix it" is quite possibly the WORST saying to employ on any consumer product. Constant evolution of the product line is what keeps you ahead of the competition, not complacency and "It ain't broke" mentality.

I will admit to only having considerable time behind the wheel of a single engine with the articulating keel (fancy ass shallow rudder). I have about 20min of seat time in a 2007 SX230 during a test drive, but we weren't even remotely close to the dock, and it was over 10yrs ago now. Perhaps those were worse.....but to call the current setup unacceptable and unsafe is a stretch at best.

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

That's fine. No worries!!! Honest.

Any way to get out on the water is awesome.