Tow Vehicle Dilemma...

[HangOutdoors]

Isn't it great to have choices!

Personally, I love my RAM and am still very happy about the price I paid. Don't care if the resale is higher on another brand, as my purchase price was very reasonable and I don't intend to sell or trade anytime soon.

For those who love their Toyotas, or some other brands, I'm genuinely happy for y'all as well.

Jim

That is what it comes down to. The search for the best truck or suv amuses me. What is best for one person may not be for another for what ever reason. I would enjoy trying out another SUV Brand, but the pricing makes it prohibitive.

 

[zpaul]

So you are convinced that Toyotas are not any more reliable than any other random vehicle? And Toyotas earning high resale values are because people are just stupid?

I had f150 for a year and a half and can tell you it was problem free and in a way was superior to Tundra in technology and pretty fast with boosted 3.5 engine.
I am a huge Toyota fan, but some stuff they just can’t execute properly. New truck is nice but still missing some stuff. Reliability is not a big issue anymore. Almost all these trucks make to 150k with no or minor issues. And I have a bunch of proof Toyotas have issues, but for some reason people believe they are reliable.
Tacoma is another bulletproof product but technically it is just a facelift, underneath it is still 25 year old truck with some tech put into it. Depends who wants what, I like gadgets and look for improvements, others say don’t mess with what is working. Don’t even let me start on 4Runner, pure Dinosaur.

 

[adrianp89]

So you are convinced that Toyotas are not any more reliable than any other random vehicle? And Toyotas earning high resale values are because people are just stupid?

100% Toyotas are not any more reliable these days. This isnt the 1990s, Ford and Chevy both have cars with top resale values, so does Jeep. Resale value has absolutely nothing to do with reliability.

 

[Ohio]

100% Toyotas are not any more reliable these days. This isnt the 1990s, Ford and Chevy both have cars with top resale values, so does Jeep. Resale value has absolutely nothing to do with reliability.

Of course it does. People aren't paying more money for something they think is not as good.

 

[HangOutdoors]

Of course it does. People aren't paying more money for something they think is not as good.

Of course they do bro. Happens all the time. If the stigma is it is better or they think they need it whether it really is or they don't, people will buy stuff up.

 

[Ohio]

I had f150 for a year and a half and can tell you it was problem free and in a way was superior to Tundra in technology and pretty fast with boosted 3.5 engine.
I am a huge Toyota fan, but some stuff they just can’t execute properly. New truck is nice but still missing some stuff. Reliability is not a big issue anymore. Almost all these trucks make to 150k with no or minor issues. And I have a bunch of proof Toyotas have issues, but for some reason people believe they are reliable.
Tacoma is another bulletproof product but technically it is just a facelift, underneath it is still 25 year old truck with some tech put into it. Depends who wants what, I like gadgets and look for improvements, others say don’t mess with what is working. Don’t even let me start on 4Runner, pure Dinosaur.

Resale on Tacomas is extremely high, and as you point out they haven't changed much. Its their reliability that keeps their resale so high. American vehicles have pretty much always had more bells and whistles. Those things do not make them more reliable. I don't consider 150K miles to be much of a threshold. Going well over 200K is a better measuring stick now a days.

 

[Ohio]

Of course they do bro. Happens all the time. If the stigma is it is better or they think they need it whether it really is or they don't, people will buy stuff up.

Sure some people do that. Are you suggesting all people do that? Or only the ones who buy Toyotas?

 

[HangOutdoors]

Sure some people do that. Are you suggesting all people do that? Or only the ones who buy Toyotas?

No not all people and no not ones whom buy Toyotas. Just in general. Marketing as well as opinions, regardless of type of product, car, phone, boat, can have a huge impact. Look at all the people whom buy Yamaha's and they go up for sale right away or after the first season.

 

[zpaul]

Resale on Tacomas is extremely high, and as you point out they haven't changed much. Its their reliability that keeps their resale so high. American vehicles have pretty much always had more bells and whistles. Those things do not make them more reliable. I don't consider 150K miles to be much of a threshold. Going well over 200K is a better measuring stick now a days.

My friend sold his 15 year old Tacoma for more then he paid new.
Solid truck, but in new o e I still see old version.
Took 15 years to reinvent Tundra.
I don’t drive cars past 150k. That’s when you start getting into expensive maintenance items and repairs.
I have a friend that put 350k on 25 year old Toyota Land Cruiser. No major repairs and still goes strong. I can’t imagine driving car for that long.
Main problem with new cars - electronics. Mechanical stuff they figured out.

 

[adrianp89]

Of course it does. People aren't paying more money for something they think is not as good.

People buy what they want. Multiple of factors into that. There is a reason Jeep Wranglers never get cheaper than 15k, regardless of year. They certainly don’t have a great history of reliability but yet a base 2 door that is 15 years old still pulls almost 20k.

 

[Neutron]

People buy what they want. Multiple of factors into that. There is a reason Jeep Wranglers never get cheaper than 15k, regardless of year. They certainly don’t have a great history of reliability but yet a base 2 door that is 15 years old still pulls almost 20k.

Its a jeep thing, that i just dont get! 90% of the wranglers we get in trade go right to the auction. Only the low mileage ones go on the lot

 

[adrianp89]

Its a jeep thing, that i just dont get! 90% of the wranglers we get in trade go right to the auction. Only the low mileage ones go on the lot

Exactly, resale isn’t based on reliability, it is based on consumer demand. Resale on all trucks is very high because they are always in demand. 911s and Model 3s keep high resale because of low supply and wait to buy new, etc. etc.

 

[BlkGS]

So you are convinced that Toyotas are not any more reliable than any other random vehicle? And Toyotas earning high resale values are because people are just stupid?

I would say that any truck that's been made for about 15 years with basically no changes is probably pretty well sorted, lol. The new Tundra, I would absolutely say is no more reliable than any other truck, and in fact, I'd argue it's the least reliable truck on the market. Actually, I'd argue they're the only unreliable truck on the market.

 

[2kwik4u]

So you are convinced that Toyotas are not any more reliable than any other random vehicle? And Toyotas earning high resale values are because people are just stupid?

In short.....yes.

I'll have to dig up the exact results and study. I'm on the phone so it might be a bit
But.....
GM had better quality based on empirical data than Toyota in something like 4/7 classes for almost a decade. As measured in average number of warranty claims per 1,000 vehicles.

So, yes people buy what they THINK is a reliable vehicle. Very few people buy (or make decisions at any level) based on data. Resale follows that same trend.

Sales figures are a better indicator of marketing than they are of quality.

 

[AZMark]

I'm not one to think too highly of people but it is far too simple to dismiss a sustained elevated price advantage for just one brand in a market as liquid as the US used car market as "stupidity" or marketing. There are millions of used car transactions per year and nearly every one of those are listed publicly.

This is the country of Walmart and Harbor Freight. People are mostly loyal to their money, if they could get an equally good or better product from a competitor for a lower price they would. There are not that many fanboys out there.

Maybe it's not 100% reliability, but go look at used Range Rovers if you think the used market doesn't price in quality more than marketing.

If the new Tundra model is as bad as it appears from this thread then the prices will fall for it relative to comparable used trucks.

 

[2kwik4u]

I'm not one to think too highly of people but it is far too simple to dismiss a sustained elevated price advantage for just one brand in a market as liquid as the US used car market as "stupidity" or marketing. There are millions of used car transactions per year and nearly every one of those are listed publicly.

This is the country of Walmart and Harbor Freight. People are mostly loyal to their money, if they could get an equally good or better product from a competitor for a lower price they would. There are not that many fanboys out there.

Maybe it's not 100% reliability, but go look at used Range Rovers if you think the used market doesn't price in quality more than marketing.

If the new Tundra model is as bad as it appears from this thread then the prices will fall for it relative to comparable used trucks.

This is a "perception is reality" issue IMO.

The fact is they aren't any better or worse than your average vehicle. They command high prices because of perceived quality, and the demand that generates. Lots of anecdotal evidence that they are superior, but not a ton of real data. Toyota service departments are never empty, so clearly they're still in there getting work done right?

I get the reverse feedback from damn near every single person I've talked to about my Audi's. Tons of "Oh my god, those are so expensive to maintain". I've owned two of them now with almost 200k miles driven between them. They break half as often and cost twice as much to repair as my GM vehicles. The resale value on a used Audi is abysmal. I paid $42k for a $75k (sticker) vehicle with only 30k miles on it. Toyotas live on the other end of that spectrum. You can get a used Tundra that is several years older, with more miles for the same price as a younger/newer domestic pickup. They enjoy that perceived quality reputation that was well earned back in the '80's-'90's.

Speaking of reputation......I think that holds some STRONG ties into the market capitalization on the fullsize pickup market. People buy as much on perception, tradition, brand loyalty, and image as they do on functionality, performance, and value. Ram has been their a brand for over a decade now, and people (myself included) still call them Dodge. My dad is a Ford guy, always has been, most likely always will be, for no other reason than "that's the way I've always done it". No value proposition in the world is going to get him to switch. Uncle has a whole feelt (12 I think) of Ford F250's for work. He bought a high end Tremor and it had a TON of problems, he's moved to a Silverado now, and after a year agrees that he should have taken a look around sooner.....Point being, Toyota earned a strong reputation back when the domestics were making crap cars. The domestics have really upped their game in the last 20 years, and are struggling to change that poor reputation. Likewise Hyundai and Kia are fighting similar image issues (although making much better progress than the Big 3 IMO).

I've gone back and looked and this is the closest thing I could find to the study I read (that I mentioned in my last post):

The Big Winners in Quality: Toyota -- and General Motors? | The Motley Fool

For the third year in a row, General Motors made a strong showing in this J.D. Power dependability study.

www.fool.com

 

[Ohio]

This is a "perception is reality" issue IMO.

The fact is they aren't any better or worse than your average vehicle. They command high prices because of perceived quality, and the demand that generates. Lots of anecdotal evidence that they are superior, but not a ton of real data. Toyota service departments are never empty, so clearly they're still in there getting work done right?

I get the reverse feedback from damn near every single person I've talked to about my Audi's. Tons of "Oh my god, those are so expensive to maintain". I've owned two of them now with almost 200k miles driven between them. They break half as often and cost twice as much to repair as my GM vehicles. The resale value on a used Audi is abysmal. I paid $42k for a $75k (sticker) vehicle with only 30k miles on it. Toyotas live on the other end of that spectrum. You can get a used Tundra that is several years older, with more miles for the same price as a younger/newer domestic pickup. They enjoy that perceived quality reputation that was well earned back in the '80's-'90's.

Speaking of reputation......I think that holds some STRONG ties into the market capitalization on the fullsize pickup market. People buy as much on perception, tradition, brand loyalty, and image as they do on functionality, performance, and value. Ram has been their a brand for over a decade now, and people (myself included) still call them Dodge. My dad is a Ford guy, always has been, most likely always will be, for no other reason than "that's the way I've always done it". No value proposition in the world is going to get him to switch. Uncle has a whole feelt (12 I think) of Ford F250's for work. He bought a high end Tremor and it had a TON of problems, he's moved to a Silverado now, and after a year agrees that he should have taken a look around sooner.....Point being, Toyota earned a strong reputation back when the domestics were making crap cars. The domestics have really upped their game in the last 20 years, and are struggling to change that poor reputation. Likewise Hyundai and Kia are fighting similar image issues (although making much better progress than the Big 3 IMO).

I've gone back and looked and this is the closest thing I could find to the study I read (that I mentioned in my last post):

The Big Winners in Quality: Toyota -- and General Motors? | The Motley Fool

For the third year in a row, General Motors made a strong showing in this J.D. Power dependability study.

www.fool.com

Is this the same JD Power you are referring to?

https://www.hotcars.com/why-jd-power-ranking-complete-nonsense/

But based on the premise here, that people don't really know what a good vehicle is, how can we know that what you claim is true? That Domestics have really upped their game?

 

[Ohio]

In short.....yes.

I'll have to dig up the exact results and study. I'm on the phone so it might be a bit
But.....
GM had better quality based on empirical data than Toyota in something like 4/7 classes for almost a decade. As measured in average number of warranty claims per 1,000 vehicles.

So, yes people buy what they THINK is a reliable vehicle. Very few people buy (or make decisions at any level) based on data. Resale follows that same trend.

Sales figures are a better indicator of marketing than they are of quality.

How in the world is Toyota able to continue this ruse? Seems the truth would catch up to them eventually?

 

[Ohio]

People buy what they want. Multiple of factors into that. There is a reason Jeep Wranglers never get cheaper than 15k, regardless of year. They certainly don’t have a great history of reliability but yet a base 2 door that is 15 years old still pulls almost 20k.

Jeeps are unique, there are multiple pick ups on the other hand.

 

[suke]

This is a "perception is reality" issue IMO.

The fact is they aren't any better or worse than your average vehicle. They command high prices because of perceived quality, and the demand that generates. Lots of anecdotal evidence that they are superior, but not a ton of real data. Toyota service departments are never empty, so clearly they're still in there getting work done right?

I get the reverse feedback from damn near every single person I've talked to about my Audi's. Tons of "Oh my god, those are so expensive to maintain". I've owned two of them now with almost 200k miles driven between them. They break half as often and cost twice as much to repair as my GM vehicles. The resale value on a used Audi is abysmal. I paid $42k for a $75k (sticker) vehicle with only 30k miles on it. Toyotas live on the other end of that spectrum. You can get a used Tundra that is several years older, with more miles for the same price as a younger/newer domestic pickup. They enjoy that perceived quality reputation that was well earned back in the '80's-'90's.

Speaking of reputation......I think that holds some STRONG ties into the market capitalization on the fullsize pickup market. People buy as much on perception, tradition, brand loyalty, and image as they do on functionality, performance, and value. Ram has been their a brand for over a decade now, and people (myself included) still call them Dodge. My dad is a Ford guy, always has been, most likely always will be, for no other reason than "that's the way I've always done it". No value proposition in the world is going to get him to switch. Uncle has a whole feelt (12 I think) of Ford F250's for work. He bought a high end Tremor and it had a TON of problems, he's moved to a Silverado now, and after a year agrees that he should have taken a look around sooner.....Point being, Toyota earned a strong reputation back when the domestics were making crap cars. The domestics have really upped their game in the last 20 years, and are struggling to change that poor reputation. Likewise Hyundai and Kia are fighting similar image issues (although making much better progress than the Big 3 IMO).

I've gone back and looked and this is the closest thing I could find to the study I read (that I mentioned in my last post):

The Big Winners in Quality: Toyota -- and General Motors? | The Motley Fool

For the third year in a row, General Motors made a strong showing in this J.D. Power dependability study.

www.fool.com

I remember when that came out and was shocked to see how far Honda had fallen. They had always been known for stone cold reliability, albeit very boring like Toyota. There's been similar studies come out since that I've stumbled across and have always been surprised. Generally now a days I think most cars are relatively reliable, if taken care of. If I wanted something boring but reliable I'd still lean towards Toyota or Honda. Largely just for old school reputation, and nothing else. Granted I've owned a butt load of Honda's and not had any issues with nearly all of them approaching 200k miles. My F150 I feel would fall apart before 200k. LOL! Granted it is also used harder and the components are pushed to their edge just based on their design. Sort of like Yamaha and Seadoo. You want reliability you go with Yamaha. You want cutting edge technology with every spare ounce of power squeezed out you go with seadoo. However, you sacrifice reliability with that choice.