FSH 190 Won't Start - (Engine turns over)

robert843 said:

I can't remember does the kill switch kill the spark or the fuel pump?

Click to expand...

Spark, I believe. If I read correctly, I think that it opens a circuit that eliminates the spark.

Akwoolf said:

Spark, I believe. If I read correctly, I think that it opens a circuit that eliminates the spark.

Click to expand...

Ok so here is your next process of elimination step disconnect the fuel line from the engine put it in a catch bucket or cup and start cranking the fuel should come out and into your catch cup or bucket if this happens you know your fuel pump and filter are working if not that's your issue next would be inspect the fuel that came out is it clear or is it cloudy and possibly contaminated maybe it got water in it some how over the off season.

robert843 said:

Ok so here is your next process of elimination step disconnect the fuel line from the engine put it in a catch bucket or cup and start cranking the fuel should come out and into your catch cup or bucket if this happens you know your fuel pump and filter are working if not that's your issue next would be inspect the fuel that came out is it clear or is it cloudy and possibly contaminated maybe it got water in it some how over the off season.

Click to expand...

Great tip!! I will do that tomorrow morning and report back with my results. Thanks!

robert843 said:

Ok so here is your next process of elimination step disconnect the fuel line from the engine put it in a catch bucket or cup and start cranking the fuel should come out and into your catch cup or bucket if this happens you know your fuel pump and filter are working if not that's your issue next would be inspect the fuel that came out is it clear or is it cloudy and possibly contaminated maybe it got water in it some how over the off season.

Click to expand...

So - I pulled the fuel line... No fuel at all came from the pump when I cranked the engine. Now I need to determine if it is the fuel pump itself, or something on the electrical input side. My bet (I'm a gambling man) at this point is that it is not the fuel pump, but something in the electrical side. I may be able to use a multimeter (I own one, but would need to figure out the settings) to see if there is power coming to the fuel pump electrical connector. (Thinking out loud)

I replaced the fuel pump fuse, so now I am wondering if it could potentially be the fuel pump relay... The relays (Main, ETV, and fuel pump) all look the same to me and I am guessing that I need all three at once so I can't just pull one to test the other. I just need to look up the specs so I can find a spare. I read some place on this forum how to test the relay, but I'd rather just replace them at this point. Testing the fuel pump electrical connection would probably be a good next step.

I have the e-copy of the service manual, so I will also look there for next steps.

Thanks again for the tips and suggestions.

Akwoolf said:

So - I pulled the fuel line... No fuel at all came from the pump when I cranked the engine. Now I need to determine if it is the fuel pump itself, or something on the electrical input side. My bet (I'm a gambling man) at this point is that it is not the fuel pump, but something in the electrical side. I may be able to use a multimeter (I own one, but would need to figure out the settings) to see if there is power coming to the fuel pump electrical connector. (Thinking out loud)

I replaced the fuel pump fuse, so now I am wondering if it could potentially be the fuel pump relay... The relays (Main, ETV, and fuel pump) all look the same to me and I am guessing that I need all three at once so I can't just pull one to test the other. I just need to look up the specs so I can find a spare. I read some place on this forum how to test the relay, but I'd rather just replace them at this point. Testing the fuel pump electrical connection would probably be a good next step.

I have the e-copy of the service manual, so I will also look there for next steps.

Thanks again for the tips and suggestions.

Click to expand...

Well at least we have the issue now just to find the cause. I still think one of the kill switches kills the fuel pump I just can't remember and wish I could get that verified as if that is the case next I would tell you to bypass the kill switches but just not sure if that would be the cause.

robert843 said:

Well at least we have the issue now just to find the cause. I still think one of the kill switches kills the fuel pump I just can't remember and wish I could get that verified as if that is the case next I would tell you to bypass the kill switches but just not sure if that would be the cause.

Click to expand...

I'm reviewing section 4 of the manual - it is dedicated to the fuel system. Now that we've eliminated some of the likely culprits, I am reviewing the rest of the fuel system schematics.

robert843 said:

Well at least we have the issue now just to find the cause. I still think one of the kill switches kills the fuel pump I just can't remember and wish I could get that verified as if that is the case next I would tell you to bypass the kill switches but just not sure if that would be the cause.

Click to expand...

Just finished testing the electrical leads to the fuel pump. No juice. Another item eliminated. I now need to either test or replace the relay(s). I don't currently have the items necessary to test the relay, so my next steps are to try to find a replacement AND to see if there is some other safety bypass that affects the power to the fuel pump. Investigation continues.

Akwoolf said:

Just finished testing the electrical leads to the fuel pump. No juice. Another item eliminated. I now need to either test or replace the relay(s). I don't currently have the items necessary to test the relay, so my next steps are to try to find a replacement AND to see if there is some other safety bypass that affects the power to the fuel pump. Investigation continues.

Click to expand...

Have you tried to reseat the connector going to the fuel pump ? @bronze_10 will tell you, i got stuck out in the freaking river, and limped back on one motor... He and i troubleshot for like 20 minutes on the phone.... I then got back and literally reseated the electrical connection on the fuel pump and BOOM it started right up on both motors... really freaking strange......

chess said:

Have you tried to reseat the connector going to the fuel pump ? @bronze_10 will tell you, i got stuck out in the freaking river, and limped back on one motor... He and i troubleshot for like 20 minutes on the phone.... I then got back and literally reseated the electrical connection on the fuel pump and BOOM it started right up on both motors... really freaking strange......

Click to expand...

Tried that a few times prior to actually checking to see if it was getting power. At this point, it isn't even getting power to the connection... Finally found a reason to pull that multimeter out of my toolbox. ha

The latest: I went ahead and took the time to pull the three relays and test them all. All three relays activate when power was applied. Also, I tested the continuity to the other side of the relays. Continuity was good. Absolutely no resistance. I suppose I can test the kill switch components now that I have the multimeter all warmed up...

Recap: To this point, I know that no power is reaching the fuel pump. I also know that the fuel pump relay is functional. Even though the fuse appeared fine, I went ahead and replaced the 10A fuel pump fuse.

I love a good mystery, but this is making me tired. haha


The snips below show the relay test procedure and Engine shut-off test check. I have not done the shut-off switch test yet.

Pulled the shut-off switch. Checked the continuity on both leads. Both had continuity when the lanyard was pulled (no continuity with lanyard attached)... Another item eliminated, but still no culprit identified. (11 year old daughter was very helpful when putting it back into place!)

I also checked the voltage of the main relay terminal. Readings looked normal.




Next step is to finish checking the voltage to the fuel pump relay. Yet another tomorrow task.



Very thankful for the detailed diagrams in the Yamaha service manual for this boat. Definitely worth the purchase if you are thinking about it.

The saga continues...

The latest: Used the service manual to check as many of the electrical connections as I could. I got some inconsistent readings for the fuel pump relay terminal. It should have read around 12v, but instead it was giving weird readings between 30 and 90. I am not even sure how that is possible... I also checked a few other items that seemed a bit abnormal (at least according to the manual). I also took the opportunity to recheck fuses and previous tests. (Father in law provided an additional set of eyes)

At this point, my fear is that the ECU has malfunctioned. Other than re-seating all of the connections, I really have no way to test it myself. The boat has less than 50 hours and I've never experienced more than a blown fuse (at the end of last season). In retrospect, I am wondering if the blown 30 Amp fuse was a symptom of something greater. I've put about 15 hours of troubleshooting into this issue and I've reached the point of diminishing returns.

I am going to reach out to a local Yamaha dealer (ugh) and perhaps contact Yamaha directly. If anyone has any advice as to the approach I should take, it would be much appreciated...

I was hoping to spend three solid days on the water for Memorial Day weekend - I haven't given up hope yet! haha

For troubleshooting, (If you feel adventurous) did you consider to give 12+V to the fuel pump to see if the boat would start once the pump was powered? If the issue is limited to the fuel pump not receiving power, maybe that could be attacked surgically? Just a thought before heading to dealer.

Beachbummer said:

For troubleshooting, (If you feel adventurous) did you consider to give 12+V to the fuel pump to see if the boat would start once the pump was powered? If the issue is limited to the fuel pump not receiving power, maybe that could be attacked surgically? Just a thought before heading to dealer.

Click to expand...

I like your way of thinking - and I am feeling adventurous. I will give that a try tomorrow... Thanks!

Verify the volt meter is functioning correctly.

For the measurements that you're making, it's hard to beat one of these. It's hard to misinterpret.

Akwoolf said:

I like your way of thinking - and I am feeling adventurous. I will give that a try tomorrow... Thanks!

Click to expand...

Welp... I set up a pigtail to run the fuel pump separately. The fuel pump was definitely pumping. Even when giving the engine fuel, it wouldn't start. Granted, I only did it for a few seconds, essentially enough to see if the fuel was flowing. I was able to verify that when I disconnected the fuel line afterwards. (yep! There is pressure, even with the pump not pushing it. Let's just say I experienced my doofus moment as fuel splashed in my face When I pulled the fuel line. Thankful that I was wearing sunglasses at the time. haaaaaaaaaa)

Off to call a dealership. Can't take the stink eye from my wife any longer. (She had visions of Lake Michigan grandeur for this weekend. Me: I CAN FIX IT, I tell ya. Yeah.)

Sounds like something is killing your spark. I'm going to assume the dealer will replace your kill switch and lanyard. Have you verified you are getting spark? Sorry if you've already covered this in the thread somewhere. You can remove a spark plug and set the end near the block and look for spark as you crank.

You aren't by chance using an aftermarket kill switch lanyard are you? I've read that some of them aren't made to the right dimensions and will not disengage the safety kill switch for the lanyard.

haknslash said:

So you got fuel. Sounds like something is killing your spark. I'm going to assume the dealer will replace your kill switch and lanyard. Have you verified you are getting spark? Sorry if you've already covered this in the thread somewhere. You can remove a spark plug and set the end near the block and look for spark as you crank.

You aren't by chance using an aftermarket kill switch lanyard are you? I've read that some of them aren't made to the right dimensions and will not disengage the safety kill switch for the lanyard.

Click to expand...

For good measure, I removed all spark plugs and replaced them. The old spark plugs were dry and very light gray in color. The boat probably has less than 50 hours.

As far as the shut-off switch, I removed it and tested continuity with a multi-meter. With the lanyard pulled, the shut-off switch had continuity. With the lanyard attached, it has no continuity. (using the original lanyard)

Electrical symptoms also include no power to tach or fuel pump...

I spoke to two Yamaha dealers this afternoon. One was dumbfound and believes that it could be an issue with the ECM ($$$$$$$). I asked him about hooking up the Yamaha Diagnostics. He wasn't convinced that it would track down the issue. I am typing up my troubleshooting recap for the other dealer and he is going to contact someone else up the Yamaha chain.

I've had 2 Yamaha parts dealers tell me that there are only 3 of these ECMs in the country. The bad news is that they both quoted $1600 to replace. The worse news is that there are no returns or refunds on these electrical parts. It could turn out to be an expensive mistake if the ECM is not the issue.

--

When you changed the plugs did you also check for spark? As in remove spark plug, connect to boot, lay plug electrode close to the block and then crank to look for spark? Swapping plugs won't help if there's no spark.

The tach issue could be related or not. Did you get any comm err warnings on display before this happened? I've read of issues with the ECM and there was strange tach behavior. Let's hope that is not it. Are you still under warranty just in case it is the ECM and you wouldn't have to foot the bill?