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Are 1.8s ( 360 HP ) really enough power ?

even the new boats with twin sc 1.8s dont reach 60 mph. I realize that the 252 and 270 are larger and heavier but it doesn’t seem like yamaha is focused on making its newer models or any of its boats faster from a top speed perspective. Why invest the money when they are the best selling boats in their class already. Just don’t make them slower than the current or previous models. That is dont fix what’s not broken.
 
Lots of interesting comments here. Lots of great ideas, and good market analysis in general.

There is, by and large, some engineering limitations to "just putting a larger motor and pump in there"......By and large axial flow centrifugal pumps (what our jet pumps are) like higher revs. THe MR-1's went to 10k, the new 1.8's go to 8k-ish. You're not going to find a pump that likes much below ~4-5k as a "cruise operating" condition. They are aren't very efficient at lower revs, and take more power to produce the same pressure differential.

Here's a compressor map from an axial flow centrifugal pump. Vertical axis pressure ratio. This is the ratio of low to high side pressure. We've seen pressures of 30psig on the cooling system so we're talking around a 2.0 or so pressure ratio for our boats at full revs. Horizontal axis is mass flow rate. This is the VOLUME of water that it's moving. A larger pump will move more water, but still only generate similar pressure levels. The colored islands are efficiency zones. This is the ratio of work input to work output. Some work is lost to heat; more efficient is better. Finally, the curved lines over the colored area are pump shaft speeds. As you add speed to the input shaft it moves more water, at higher pressures.

View attachment 156140
(click for larger image)

So what you'll find is that as you go UP in pump size, you require much more torque to maintain that same shaft speed. More torque is the root problem here. To get more torque you need a larger Mean effective pressure in the engine. Two ways to get that. Increase piston size/compression ratio, or add boost. Adding to engine size will, in general, LOWER max RPM due to piston speeds, valvetrain speeds, column loading in connecting rods, and a whole slew of other reasons. Well, we WANT those revs. We NEED those revs for the pump to continue to operate efficiently. You can see this in work in I/O as well. Look at the outdrive ratio, it's typically between a 2.0:1 and a 1.4:1 or so. These are OVERDRIVE ratios. They're geared UP, not down. The little 3.0L 4cyls have like a 1.4-1.5:1 because torque is limited. This limits prop speed, and overall speed. Check a large 7.4L and they'll have like a 2.0-2.2:1 ratio. Plenty of torque, but no revs so they need to spin the prop faster. Keep in mind props are also axial flow "pumps"; they just use "traction" with the water instead of a pressure differential and a nozzle to deliver thrust.

SO........that is a ridiculously summarized set of reasons why large displacement engines will most likely NOT be coming to recreational jet propulsion systems. The small engine, axial flow pump, and jet nozzle pairing is well suited to smaller, higher revving engines. I would guess something along the lines of a turbo 2.0L (lots of magical engineering things happen at a 0.5L per cylinder size, but that's for another day) with a 170 or 180mm pump is about as big as we'll ever need. We're already pushing 25ft boats into the 50mph range on stock supercharged 1.8L's. Imagine a 212S with twin turbocharged engines, and 170mm pumps......I bet that's a 65+mph boat right there. At those speeds we're, IMO, starting to look at some safety issues with recreational bowriders, as the dynamics of wetted surface, hull strength, and things like "chine walk" start appearing.

All boils down to cost, market demand, and intended consumer. Most people are REALLY happy with a 50mph 24ft boat that costs $60k or less.

TO answer the initial question......yes, twin 1.8's are plenty for this segment IMO.
Love the analysis. About to pull the trigger on a L13. Can you give us your thoughts? I still wonder why, if they are so good, why the Yamaha engineers leave that goodness on the table.
 
Love the analysis. About to pull the trigger on a L13. Can you give us your thoughts? I still wonder why, if they are so good, why the Yamaha engineers leave that goodness on the table.
They probably leave that goodness on the table for versatility. Not everyone is at sea level and has great atmosphere for power. At elevation there are guys that need less pump loading to get to full revs. There is also something to be said about clogging, since the nozzle shape is slightly tighter overall.

In general I like the L13. It removed some early cavitation problems I had. Between sealing the intake tunnel, adding the L13, and removing the spark arrestor (ribbon delete), the boat is VERY VERY consistent in performance. It's really not much faster in top speed, nor is it really any faster out of the hole (possibly a little slower out of the hole to be honest), but it performs MUCH MUCH more consistently for me. I can get 40mph in most all conditions now, where before it was just an every now and then. It holds "traction" in the corners much better when tubing now as well, pre L13 it would cavitate and drop speed badly when pulling a tube. I've changed my driving habits as well, so that also helps.

Overall I think it's worth the cash. I think I paid $200-ish for it. I can't remember, been a few years, and I've slept since then :D
 
Love the analysis. About to pull the trigger on a L13. Can you give us your thoughts? I still wonder why, if they are so good, why the Yamaha engineers leave that goodness on the table.

overall long term reliability and stability of then engine. Yamaha is an engine builder at it's core and has stuck by this method in every powersport industry. Each and every yamaha I have ever owned in every platform has left the factory with loads left on the table for tuning and mods. They truly want the most reliability for the long term satisfaction of the customer.

There are very few competitors that will ever deny the stability of a Yamaha engine. They will badmouth every other component, but nobody can deny the engines superiority in almost every format.
 
Yes I want a higher top end and to be able to get there faster. My better half (I mean like I am playing t-ball while she is playing at the all-star break) doesn’t enjoy it much over 40.

I couldn’t careless about bragging rights.

But the big block sound and shore shaking power of a DCB or similar brings back memories of sleeping in a tent on a wet towel just yards from the shore of Lake Havasu in late summer as a kid. The early morning sounds of the “old guys” making their high speed runs on glass sure was a great alarm that I never wanted to hit the snooze button on. Maybe when I am another 20 years older I’ll get myself a big displacement water toy.
 
Yes I want a higher top end and to be able to get there faster. My better half (I mean like I am playing t-ball while she is playing at the all-star break) doesn’t enjoy it much over 40.

I couldn’t careless about bragging rights.

But the big block sound and shore shaking power of a DCB or similar brings back memories of sleeping in a tent on a wet towel just yards from the shore of Lake Havasu in late summer as a kid. The early morning sounds of the “old guys” making their high speed runs on glass sure was a great alarm that I never wanted to hit the snooze button on. Maybe when I am another 20 years older I’ll get myself a big displacement water toy.

Amen to that. Someone dropped on our lake this week (nobody recognized the boat) with what looked to be a humble I/O with an aftermarket tower on it. Towing kids on a tube, but then it was adult ride time, and he hit the captains call. You could hear that big engine from across the lake. They were rocketing across the water. It was impressive, and a total sleeper for sure. Sleepers are where it's at!
 
I'm definitely happy with the power and speed of my 242. WOT for me is generally reserved for short runs on very smooth water especially if anyone is in the bow area and considering i'd rather not break/crack anything if I can avoid it. ? Another factor in the back of my mind would be avoiding chine walk. Not sure to what extent the yamaha's exhibit this behavior at higher speeds and chop, but after experiencing it in a narrow '90 Rocket 24 at 65ish mph, it feels like things could get outta control pretty quickly if you hit the waves wrong...

Only thing I wish yamaha would add from the factory is something like the adjustable nozzle trim they have in some of their ski's. From what I can tell, similar to this mod some have done aftermarket.
 
As much as I think a twin supercharged 212 would be amazing (Bring back the SS nameplate?!?!), I'm not sure I would own one. I purposely bought the 190 over the 195 sitting next to it, and fuel usage was one of the main reasons (color and cost were the other two major ones).

The N/A 1.8's are just so simple and reliable, they're really hard to beat.

Agreed - especially when a SC causes fuel usage to go up and premium to feed it is 15-20% more in cost, that adds up QUICK if you put a lot of hours on in a year. Heck, right now with the 1.8's I'm using $40 in fuel just for a 5pm - 8pm day.
 
But wouldn't the trick be to increase thrust/hp while gaining fuel economy? I would think that it could be done, although I am no engineer and don't profess to understand much about all the dynamics involved.
 
I love my Yamaha, but honestly would be afraid to go much faster in it. They're great, but don't feel like they have the hull strength or stability of my past machines.
 
@SandfleaDDH I do agree with you. I was thinking more along the lines of Loaded Weight vs. Attainable speed. So let's say I put in a ton of mods, Tabs, 3-4 batteries, etc. I just added 400lbs. Put in 6-8 full size adults, gear full tank etc., a mid 40's boat is now a mid to possibly low 30's. An engine upgrade that would circumvent that but also get better economy would be fantastic.
 
THIS IS MY CALL TO THE AFTERMARKET , I.E RIVA ect ... BUILD US A BOLT ON SC KIT FOR THE 1.8S !!!! .....please !!!! lol
 
Wish all day long, but until they design a hull that can take 60+mph, or a pump that will not cavitate with more than 250hp, I don't need it. And "need" should never come into a guys conversation about HP. It doesn't with any other powersport product I own. And we shun those that utter the word.

They already did 6CA19E3A-92CD-47A8-B071-143ED3581DC7.jpeg
But everyone calls it a toy ;)
 
How come you guys aren't giving any love to the old MR-1 engines?
No hate on the MR1's. It does prove the point though, Yamaha has figured out how to size the engines. As the hulls changed, the 212 series needed more juice. Those two are running as close to each other as they possibly could have.

Yamaha for the win. And just like the 255/275 series, more boat weight, more juice, similar performance. The goal is not to produce a "faster boat", it's to give you more boat without hindering performance. I don't think many appreciate what it takes to do that from an engineering standpoint.
 
Touche` You are so correct on that animal!
That xr1800 rips! Saw one a few times recently at my local launch on st clair.

Lol'd @ ~1:11 in this vid, especially with the description the guy has on the clip! ?
 
No hate on the MR1's. It does prove the point though, Yamaha has figured out how to size the engines. As the hulls changed, the 212 series needed more juice. Those two are running as close to each other as they possibly could have.

Yamaha for the win. And just like the 255/275 series, more boat weight, more juice, similar performance. The goal is not to produce a "faster boat", it's to give you more boat without hindering performance. I don't think many appreciate what it takes to do that from an engineering standpoint.
Here is a fun website to play around with. Unfortunately I haven’t found one for jet boats yet. If someone much smarter than me knows how to convert impeller inefficiencies into prop slip then it could work for our boats.
 
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