CoVID-19 / SARS-CoV-2 Information and Questions

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@Mesa50, perhaps someone with a better understanding of virology could address the issue of mutations getting weaker over time?

I think we could say for certain that 'evolution is random, but guaranteed.'

While it was once believed that viruses get weaker over time, I believe the current thoughts are that new viral variants could be either more of less virulent over time.

Best cause scenario would be for the virus to get weaker over time. Even then, the question then becomes how long and at what cost? One bad scenario would be for the variants to continue to spread and develop resistance to anti-viral therapies currently available.

Some viruses are still a problem decades later, look at HIV and Ebola.

Lots of unknowns when it comes to viruses.

Jim

 

[Mesa50]

With all the booster discussion it would be good to look at real world data instead of opinions. In this data from Alberta Canada boosted 80+ year olds were less likely to be hospitalized than unvaccinated 12 to 29 year olds. Double vaccinated 60 to 69 year olds were also less likely to be hospitalized than unvaccinated 12 to 29 year olds. Boosters conveyed the most benefit to those 70+ while double vaccination conveyed huge benefit to all completely eliminating hospitalization for those under 12. This method of reporting clearly shows benefit increasing with each dose and through each age category.


View attachment 170211

Similar, but less timely and detailed data from our own CDC.

View attachment 170212


View attachment 170213

And finally from the UK NHS.

View attachment 170214

View attachment 170215

Saying that there are more sick people who are unvaccinated in the hospital than vaccinated, doesn’t seem to be a good measure of what’s actually happening. According to the new guidelines for counting vaccination status, only 40% of previously fully vaccinated individuals have received a booster. This means that we are now only 25% vaccinated as a country. So 75% of people are now counted as non vaccinated. When such a large majority is counted as non vaccinated, there’s going to be a lot more of them in the hospital than fully vaccinated. It says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the vaccine. In Canada, 2 provinces now have more vaccinated in the icu than non vaccinated. This in no way means that the vaccine doesn’t work, they just have a higher percentage of vaccinated people over non vaccinated. Are you willing to uses Canadian data and Israeli data to suggest that non vaccinated are better protected than vaccinated, because they both have a higher percentage of vaccinated in the icu? It’s like saying the majority of people who get sick in Idaho are white. Therefore minorities are healthier. As long as there are more non vaccinated than vaccinated, there will be more non vaccinated in the icu. If we were 100% vaccinated, then 100% of the people in the icu would be vaccinated. Under your assumption, this would mean that the vaccine didn’t work at all, which may also be untrue.

 

[Bruce]

@Mesa50, please provide links to legitimate sources to support your claims about Israel and Canada.

I was glad to see that you deleted a highly inaccurate post that you made yesterday.

 

[Mesa50]

@Mesa50, please provide links to legitimate sources to support your claims about Israel and Canada.

I was glad to see that you deleted a highly inaccurate post that you made yesterday.

I only deleted it because I thought it sounded too harsh. Not because of it’s accuracy. I enjoy discussions, but don’t want to make any of you angry, because I look forward to our get togethers.

 

[Mesa50]

@Mesa50, please provide links to legitimate sources to support your claims about Israel and Canada.

I was glad to see that you deleted a highly inaccurate post that you made yesterday.

This is happening in Quebec, and Nova Scotia. Virginia, South Carolina, New York, Texas are also now having counties with more vaccinated in the hospital than non vaccinated. It doesn’t mean that the vaccine doesn’t work any more than it does the other way around.

 

[crazy4life]

It is extremely easy to pick and choose data to fit whatever narrative that you would like to promote. I can copy and paste like the best of them. I rather listen to people like Dr offit that are world renowned and at the top of their profession then some guy that scours the internet for the information that supports his thesis. I can post this chart from Scotland that clearly shows that the people with boosters are 4 times more likely to die then the unvaccinated. When 16 people that the FDA chose to provide input and look at the facts and make a decision don’t think something is a good idea I give them more weight then Joe Blow. I will tend to trust them and not some guy on a jet boaters forum. But that’s just me and the great thing about this cointrty is that you can believe whatever you want.

Another thing that really bothers me is that a young healthy Firefighter, Policemen, Nurse or Doctor can lose their job simply because they are not boosted. But they have been jabed twice and have had covid and have been putting their very lives on the line every day for 2 years while other people hide in there basements is total madness not supported by any data.

 

[Mesa50]

I

It is extremely easy to pick and choose data to fit whatever narrative that you would like to promote. I can copy and paste like the best of them. I rather listen to people like Dr offit that are word renowned and at the top of their profession then some guy that scours the internet for the information that supports his thesis. I can post this chart from Scotland that clearly shows that the people with boosters are 4 times more likely to die then the unvaccinated. When 16 people that the FDA chose to provide input and look at the facts and make a decision don’t think something is a good idea I give them more weight then Joe Blow. I will tend to trust them and not some guy on a jet boaters forum. But that’s just me and the great thing about this cointrty is that you can believe whatever you want.
View attachment 170220

If we use the idea that more unvaccinated people are hospitalized than non vaccinated, when there are more non vaccinated people than fully vaxed. We could also use that methodology to say that since more people died in 2021 than in 2020, and people began getting vaccinated in 2021, then the vaccine is obviously what’s killing them at a higher rate. It’s the exact same methodology.

 

[Troch1]

It is extremely easy to pick and choose data to fit whatever narrative that you would like to promote. I can copy and paste like the best of them. I rather listen to people like Dr offit that are word renowned and at the top of their profession then some guy that scours the internet for the information that supports his thesis. I can post this chart from Scotland that clearly shows that the people with boosters are 4 times more likely to die then the unvaccinated. When 16 people that the FDA chose to provide input and look at the facts and make a decision don’t think something is a good idea I give them more weight then Joe Blow. I will tend to trust them and not some guy on a jet boaters forum. But that’s just me and the great thing about this cointrty is that you can believe whatever you want.


View attachment 170220

But you aren't even understanding what you posted above...the Age Standardized Mortality Rate per 100k for 3 doses is 1.50 vs. 10.40 in the unvaccinated group. That's a 7 fold risk reduction by getting 3 vaccines vs. unvaccinated. You missed the money shot here and zoomed in on a random total number of deaths.

 

[Bruce]

@Mesa50, do you really consider YouTube to be a legitimate source for medical information?

Do you have any sources of actual data?

 

[crazy4life]

But you aren't even understanding what you posted above...the Age Standardized Mortality Rate per 100k for 3 doses is 1.50 vs. 10.40 in the unvaccinated group. That's a 7 fold risk reduction by getting 3 vaccines vs. unvaccinated. You missed the money shot here and zoomed in on a random total number of deaths.

Thanks for your input. I did not miss anything I was just showing that you can support any narrative that you chose. So please carry on with yours. And if you could post all this data that shows there is a benefit for healthy 20 year olds to get a booster shot after having 2 jabs and covid I would be interested in seeing it.

By the way did more people die of covid in the 3 jabs group or not? That was my statement not about risk reduction or anything else.

 

[Mesa50]

I guess we can’t trust that dang lying hospitalist/icu doc to provide us with legitimate census data in Quebec. I’m kind of surprised by your sudden distrust of television news agencies.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

LOL, I just wanted to note that at least we are discussing the efficacy of booster shots on different age groups and no longer debating if the two shot vaccine is efficacious!

I just wanted to add that when we look at events like the meeting of the FDA advisory committee. these events have occurred at a fixed point in time, What we currently see today, or even tomorrow, might reflect a different environment, and might (or might not) result in different decisions/conclusions.

Jim

 

[Mesa50]

@Mesa50, do you really consider YouTube to be a legitimate source for medical information?

Do you have any sources of actual data?

I can post dozens of articles from Canada showing that the vaccinated have been hospitalized at a higher rate than the non-vaccinated for months, but I don’t see it making a difference to you. You’ll just say that the hospital is lying, or that the sources are from people who while working in a hospital business office, don’t know how to read their own census information.

Vaccinated people in hospital a sign of Quebec’s ‘community failure,’ not vaccine failure: expert

On Wednesday, the number of vaccinated people hospitalized with COVID-19 was higher than those who were unvaccinated, but one infectious disease specialist says the numbers don't tell the whole story.

montreal.ctvnews.ca

 

[crazy4life]

LOL, I just wanted to note that at least we are discussing the efficacy of booster shots on different age groups and no longer debating if the two shot vaccine is efficacious!

I just wanted to add that when we look at events like the meeting of the FDA advisory committee. these events have occurred at a fixed point in time, What we currently see today, or even tomorrow, might reflect a different environment, and might (or might not) result in different decisions/conclusions.

Jim

While what you stated is true, Dr Offit stated this yesterday or the day before and clearly stated that at this time their is no data that supports boosters in the under 50 crowd.
And while we are on the subject I and everyone else on the planet is entitled to their own opionon and if it does not match yours (by yours I mean people in general and not you personally) they should be entitled to it. Opinions are like assholes in that everyone has one. It does not make mine right and yours wrong or vice versa.

Carry on

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

This is exciting, but caution that it is an early Phase 1 Trial with only 56 participants, IAVI and Moderna Launch Trial of HIV Vaccine Antigens Delivered Through mRNA Technology. Not related to the Covid vaccines, but it is using the same mRNA technology.

Jim

 

[Bruce]

Thanks for your input. I did not miss anything I was just showing that you can support any narrative that you chose. So please carry on with yours. And if you could post all this data that shows there is a benefit for healthy 20 year olds to get a booster shot after having 2 jabs and covid I would be interested in seeing it.

By the way did more people die of covid in the 3 jabs group or not? That was my statement not about risk reduction or anything else.

If you did not miss the meaning of that chart then you intentionally misrepresented it.

While lying is not specifically forbidden in our Code of Conduct intentionally misrepresenting information is abusive and disrespectful.

It would have been interesting to have seen the previous page presented with table 15 along with a full image of table 15.



The current version of that report can be found via the "Full report" link at COVID-19 statistical report - 26 January 2022 - COVID-19 statistical report - Publications - Public Health Scotland

 

[Bruce]

I guess we can’t trust that dang lying hospitalist/icu doc to provide us with legitimate census data in Quebec. I’m kind of surprised by your sudden distrust of television news agencies.

Television "news" is often more entertaining than informative. Especially with topics that are far beyond the understanding of most journalists.

If you have data to support your false claims please post it.

 

[Mesa50]

I didn’t make the claims. The hospitalist/icu docs at the said hospitals did. If you watched the videos, and read the articles you would see it. I assume that you are saying that the doctors at the hospitals in the news stories are lying, since they made the claims, and not me. In fact if you care to fact check yourself, you’ll find that nearly every city in the world that has a higher vaccination rate than non vaccinated rate, also has a higher number of vaccinated who are admitted. It is basic mathematical probability. If there are 100 people who are vaccinated in my neighborhood, and 10 who aren’t, there is a 10 time’s greater probability of a vaccinated person being in the hospital. If there are 10 vaccinated people in the hospital, and 1 non, the ratio is identical, and the efficacy is also identical. The “more vaccinated in the icu” is a slight of hand, phony idea that only works as long as the non vaccinated outnumber the vaccinated.

 

[Bruce]

@Mesa50, perhaps you are focused on absolute numbers rather than the rate of hospitalization for any given population.

If you want to judge whether a vaccine is working you need to look at rates within population groups.

Your argument seems to be the same as @crazy4life's intentional misrepresentation of a Scottish chart.

 

[Mesa50]

My argument is just a reiteration of the doctors who say their vaccinated patient admissions outnumber their non vaccinated due to their being a larger population of vaccinated in their towns. It’s not my argument. I just have to trust that the hospitals aren’t intentionally misrepresenting the data, in order to destroy their own previous positions just for the fun of it.